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But Pohsyb's the one in the box. Go figure.
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Originally Posted by WingedAvenger
Jack is the guy that makes those delicious hamburgers.
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Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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It wouldn't have launched. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I love this game, and I cannot deny Jack had a hand in it, but I can't help but wonder what would have happened if Rick Dakan had remained in charge.
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Dakan was open about about not managing the Cryptic staff well enough to deliver what was required - he'd listen to everyone then go off and make a decision without giving the 'why' and annoy people because they thought they'd been ignored. He'd also take people at their word about work that was being done when he recognised after the fact he should have been checking more closely. It was why he was replaced - Cryptic management (and probably NCsoft management) didn't think he could deliver.
People like to decry lead developers for having a vision about how gameplay should be. In my opinion, without that vision, you end up with a wishy-washy title that no-one likes because it doesn't do anything well. You don't have to agree with that vision, but I think it is weak to decry it completely simply because you don't like it. Positron has a vision for CoH/V too - something that PvPers and MA players have found out recently in ways that weren't exactly positive.
Emmert made mistakes, but I find his regular burning-in-effigy events to be fairly hollow affairs.
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My thoughts exactly.
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Originally Posted by UnSub
It wouldn't have launched.
People like to decry lead developers for having a vision about how gameplay should be. In my opinion, without that vision, you end up with a wishy-washy title that no-one likes because it doesn't do anything well. You don't have to agree with that vision, but I think it is weak to decry it completely simply because you don't like it. Positron has a vision for CoH/V too - something that PvPers and MA players have found out recently in ways that weren't exactly positive. Emmert made mistakes, but I find his regular burning-in-effigy events to be fairly hollow affairs. |
Boy this topic will never go away will it? Hehe.. yeah well, Jack is gone and he works for a rival now, a rival that used to be our owner! There is no love loss between the games to be sure and I don't think we will see a lot of "good luck to you" type well wishes for that OTHER pretender to the Superhero genre.. still.. what Jack did and did not do is well talked about even now.. I have said it before but will say it again: We really need to move on folks.. this awesome game of ours is moving forward and getting better all the time, that is really and probably where our focus should be.. just my .02 influence.
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A giant monster found in Croatoa, notable for his badge which is needed for an accolade.
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Originally Posted by AmazingMOO
Who is Jack?
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The Bacon Compels You.
The real problem Jack had is that he had horrible people skills. He was a great developer, but he did *not* know how to interact with people, and especially not with customers.
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Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
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When did he do this?
| 'I'm afraid he doesn't have a very good reputation among CoH players because SINCE leaving the NCSoft dev team, he's done things like recruit for his new game on the CoH message board. |
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HAHA I remember that story too.
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Originally Posted by KithDPine
He brought us this game, he poured a lot of himself into it, and I've no doubt some of the good things we have are his doing. The problem I had was with his game theory and NIMGYD attitude, he was fixated on the idea that players secretly want to lose. I still remember (though not verbatim) the story about him losing a dozen or so times to a chu-boss in a handheld game and rush he had when he finally beat it and how he wanted to make encounters in CoH exactly like that.
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Been here since day one. This game is great in spite of Jack, not because of him.
"making unkeepable promises" Moo? Really? You can write that legibly without misspelling in laughter? He said no more power nerfs. That seems to be a promise, if you say it, you can/should keep it - or dont say it at all. Especially knowing at the time that ED was in the works. I dont, and many others who have unfortunatley left, didnt either, believe that he was anywhere near truthful. Outright liar actually - i saved the old posts he made. That's like car salesman telling you he wont nerf the the Porche anymore, then changes the carburator so it puts out less horsepower after a fixed speed. His "Vision" was extremely myopic.
I believe we would have had power customization sooner had he not reduced devs prior to his leaving, knowing he was going to work on CO. It was down to, what - 8? from14+? We now have more ppl working since he left to bring us things like GR.
And in his groundbreaking CO - theres "force walls" surrounding the city (war walls anyone?), radiated enemies instead of infected, - wheres the copyright lawyers?!?
I dont hate the man - he looked out for himself and tried to put a decent product out - handheld videogames notwithstanding. When anyone askes me about Jack i just say he was one of the devs, he made a lot of mistakes that hurt the game, and since he's at CO i hope he learned to avoid similar in the future.
*nerf* Darn! Oh well.. I will just have to rebuild. Ah.. this works *nerf*
Darn it.. well I will rebuild again.. oh this might *nerf*
Grr.. this is getting annoying.. rebuild agai- *nerf*
I wasn't even finished rebuilding the las- *nerf* But.. *nerf* I *nerf* ......*nerf* *nerf* *nerf*
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It was down to 15, from around 40. There are now around 50 (possibly as many as 60). (This includes production devs, like Ghost Falcon, etc., who don't actually develop for the game.)
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Originally Posted by stellar
It was down to, what - 8? from14+?
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Paragon Wiki: http://www.paragonwiki.com
City Info Terminal: http://cit.cohtitan.com
Mids Hero Designer: http://www.cohplanner.com
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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That was pretty funny.|
Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum
You don't know Jack?
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On the topic at hand....Wow. Someone started a thread obviously meant to berate a person who can't even show his face around here anymore?
Lotta hate around here, I guess...
"The One"
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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
The way you play changes your IO slotting..
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76 characters and Twenty-four 50s later, I still love this game.
AlienOne's Human-Form Warshade Guide (Old guide+New guide = 12,000+ views!)
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Ah ty - im fuzzy on numbers but i knew the ratio was approx...
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
It was down to 15, from around 40. There are now around 50 (possibly as many as 60). (This includes production devs, like Ghost Falcon, etc., who don't actually develop for the game.)
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*nerf* Darn! Oh well.. I will just have to rebuild. Ah.. this works *nerf*
Darn it.. well I will rebuild again.. oh this might *nerf*
Grr.. this is getting annoying.. rebuild agai- *nerf*
I wasn't even finished rebuilding the las- *nerf* But.. *nerf* I *nerf* ......*nerf* *nerf* *nerf*
Not counting production:
- Issue 6: 70 Devs
- Issue 8-11: 15 Devs (Plus 2-3 Cryptic helpers from other departments, esp. for Inventions. There were 5 full time Production for CoH/V in residence at Cryptic Studios at this time.)
- Issue 12: 25 Devs. NC NorCal is now solely owned by NCSoft. Three of the Cryptic Devs who were not part of "The 15" get hired from Cryptic and 7 more Devs are hired first quarter of 2008.
- Issue 14: 30 Devs. NC NorCal ends 2008 with that many Devs.
- Issue 16: 40 Devs (rough estimate) at Paragon Studios. (Close to 20 in Production.)
Speeding Through New DA Repeatables || Spreadsheet o' Enhancements || Zombie Skins: better skins for these forums || Guide to Guides
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A while ago, a lot of people on this forum got PMs inviting them to the Champions Online beta. Not exactly the most sporting kind of marketing.
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Originally Posted by Ultimus
When did he do this?
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That's just what The Weevil calls everyone, didn't you know that, Jack?
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Originally Posted by AmazingMOO
How do you reply to questions about Jack?
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Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)
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Eh, I didn't know Rick well enough, so I'll take you on your word here. But from what I've heard from him, his heart was at least in the right place, something I can't say for Jack Emmert. Not even when I was a fan of his could I claim he had the right idea at to where to take the game or how to deal with people playing in unexpected ways. And, frankly, given what Cryptic produced since going solo, I'm less and less inclined to put ANY of the good things in City of Heroes in Jack's court. Thinking back on it, a lot of the good things I remember are all either remnants of Launch or have been added since I8.
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Originally Posted by UnSub
It wouldn't have launched.
Dakan was open about about not managing the Cryptic staff well enough to deliver what was required - he'd listen to everyone then go off and make a decision without giving the 'why' and annoy people because they thought they'd been ignored. He'd also take people at their word about work that was being done when he recognised after the fact he should have been checking more closely. It was why he was replaced - Cryptic management (and probably NCsoft management) didn't think he could deliver. People like to decry lead developers for having a vision about how gameplay should be. In my opinion, without that vision, you end up with a wishy-washy title that no-one likes because it doesn't do anything well. You don't have to agree with that vision, but I think it is weak to decry it completely simply because you don't like it. Positron has a vision for CoH/V too - something that PvPers and MA players have found out recently in ways that weren't exactly positive. Emmert made mistakes, but I find his regular burning-in-effigy events to be fairly hollow affairs. |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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One thing Rick Dakan deserves a lot of credit for, apparently, is the Story Bible, and therefore most of the lore of the game as it existed at launch. I spoke to Positron at Comic Con about it, and he said Rick wrote about 80% of the story bible.
If you like the stories behind Nemesis, the Rikti, Superadine, Crey, the 5th Column (but NOT the Council), the Freakshow, etc, then that was likely Rick.
It sounds like Rick didn't have management skills, but did have creative ability.
Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)
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The enemy groups at CO are painfully generic.|
Originally Posted by Liquid
One thing Rick Dakan deserves a lot of credit for, apparently, is the Story Bible, and therefore most of the lore of the game as it existed at launch. I spoke to Positron at Comic Con about it, and he said Rick wrote about 80% of the story bible.
If you like the stories behind Nemesis, the Rikti, Superadine, Crey, the 5th Column (but NOT the Council), the Freakshow, etc, then that was likely Rick. It sounds like Rick didn't have management skills, but did have creative ability. |
Before somebody says that most of CoX's groups are copied from Champions, that may be true, but they were made much more interesting in the process.
There are also some groups that are not Champions canon as far as I know, that are blatant copies of some of the CoX groups, but far less interesting.
For example, the maniacs are basically freakshow without the cybernetics or the funny or the backstory, so they are just random crazy goths. There is even a job with a maniac disguise. Nemesis is obviously a copy of the Champions big bad, Dr. Destroyer, but he is so much more interesting that he puts Champions' doom clone to shame. None of the enemy groups are remotely nuanced beyond just being bad guys, and there is no clear reason why any of them are crminals beyond just to be bad. Yet consider groups such as Rikti.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
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Nobody knows how to interact with MMORPG customers, I'm afraid, because you simply can't make them happy, by and large. MMORPG players are too fractious a crowd for that.
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Originally Posted by ArcticFahx
The real problem Jack had is that he had horrible people skills. He was a great developer, but he did *not* know how to interact with people, and especially not with customers.
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Well, I don't want to get into an "Our vampires are different!" debate, but from what I've seen of the actual Champions mythos... It's pretty damn cheesy and cheap. The few villains I saw were aliens and zombies and soldiers and soldiers and soldiers and soldiers. It felt like every damn person in Canada was a soldier. And I was never a fan of their names or concepts. It's like what players here would make if names weren't reserved to only one character. I mean, come on! Mr. Zombie? What is this? The cut-price bulk deal of generic super villain names? Even Dr. Destroyer has more class than that, and that IS saying something with a name like "Dr. Destroyer."|
Originally Posted by ChaosExMachina
The enemy groups at CO are painfully generic.
Before somebody says that most of CoX's groups are copied from Champions, that may be true, but they were made much more interesting in the process. There are also some groups that are not Champions canon as far as I know, that are blatant copies of some of the CoX groups, but far less interesting. For example, the maniacs are basically freakshow without the cybernetics or the funny or the backstory, so they are just random crazy goths. There is even a job with a maniac disguise. Nemesis is obviously a copy of the Champions big bad, Dr. Destroyer, but he is so much more interesting that he puts Champions' doom clone to shame. None of the enemy groups are remotely nuanced beyond just being bad guys, and there is no clear reason why any of them are crminals beyond just to be bad. Yet consider groups such as Rikti. |
Though I must admit it's refreshing to see a Dr. Doom in charge, rather than the uninspired despot that is Lord Recluse. Seriously, no offence to the writers, but Lord Recluse is the biggest mistake in this game's canon. Even his lieutenants are more interesting.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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That's more or less what I meant when I talked about Rick. I'm not sure of his skills as a game designer, but all the things he made had heart in them. I know that's a corny, vague thing to say, but when I look at most of the old City of Heroes factions, I see good ideas that have had quite a lot of thought and creativity put into them and that have been well realised. Even something as genericly simple as the Hellions still have interesting sides and their own moments of glory, but we also have truly interesting ideas like the Vahzilok.|
Originally Posted by Liquid
One thing Rick Dakan deserves a lot of credit for, apparently, is the Story Bible, and therefore most of the lore of the game as it existed at launch. I spoke to Positron at Comic Con about it, and he said Rick wrote about 80% of the story bible.
If you like the stories behind Nemesis, the Rikti, Superadine, Crey, the 5th Column (but NOT the Council), the Freakshow, etc, then that was likely Rick. It sounds like Rick didn't have management skills, but did have creative ability. |
And, I know I'll get reamed for this, but I still find Lord Nemesis to be my favourite villain not just in this game, but pretty much my favourite villain in general. It's not so much about what he does or what weapons he as as it is about how he is written. Always planning, always plotting, always with bigger ideas, and he manages to use steam power to produce superior technology than everyone else. AND he is reserved for the upper-level game, because his forces are both too secretive and too deadly to be unleashed on a level 1 enemy. I am not, nor have I ever been, in favour of dumbing down big bads and their minions so that new players can fight them right out the gate. It takes away from their mystique and the sense of power. Rikti Invasions are TERRIBLE for that, because people start fighting "the greatest threat the world has ever seen" as soon as they step into Atlas Park.
Even to this day, I still like the old factions the best.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Eh, Jack did a lot of things that screwed us over, but in the long run, we're better off for the things he did. GDN, ED, and a few other things set the stage for Inventions, and the game is much better for it.
The only thing I ever had a problem with him about was his: "I like it, so that means everyone else will too" attitude about a lot of things.
The thing with the powers that were going to be replaced in the APPs? As it turns out, because it was a very unpopular move, they reversed it and just added the replacement powers to the pools instead. I'd be willing to bet if Mr. Emmert had still been in charge our complaints would have fallen on deaf ears and those powers would have been gone.
The current devs listen to player feedback and it DOES color their decisions. If they have an idea and a large number of people speak out against it, they may reconsider it, or adjust their implementation of it. Jack-era CoH didn't have such a rapport, decisions were made and things were done regardless of what any of us had to say about it.
Jack did a lot of good things for the game, but his management style left much to be desired. Personally I am glad he is no longer in charge, because I prefer the direction the game took after he was out of the picture.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
I was never one to put much credibility into all the Jack Hate way-back-when. I believed it to be mob mentality exaggerated reaction to the nerf-of-the-moment.
However.
That was before I joined the beta test of CO some months ago. Now, I'm re-evaluating my original dismissal of the Jack Hate----and not in a good way, if you take my meaning. I'm starting to lean more and more in that direction.
BTW, please don't think the Champions you see in CO is in any way a valid representation of the true game. It's been run through *someone's* distorted, insipid brain. I strongly suspect Jack's handiwork yet again. Could be that Roper dude everyone loves to hate, I guess. Either way, it's not really Champions.
Cal
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Don't forget being outraged that, having finally figured out how to defeat one of the "challenges" he had put in the game, players didn't keep their 'solution' to themselves, but insisted on announcing it to the playerbase, so everyone could learn. Apparently part of the 'thrill' in CoH was that no hero ever told another hero anything.|
Originally Posted by KithDPine
He brought us this game, he poured a lot of himself into it, and I've no doubt some of the good things we have are his doing. The problem I had was with his game theory and NIMGYD attitude, he was fixated on the idea that players secretly want to lose. I still remember (though not verbatim) the story about him losing a dozen or so times to a chu-boss in a handheld game and rush he had when he finally beat it and how he wanted to make encounters in CoH exactly like that.
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Originally Posted by ArcticFahx
The real problem Jack had is that he had horrible people skills. He was a great developer, but he did *not* know how to interact with people, and especially not with customers.
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Admittedly, he was competent as a game designer and lead developer, but his insistence on gameplay following his vision to the extent that, if he found that a significant fraction of the playerbase had found a way to enjoy the game that didn't conform to his vision, he'd direct changes be made to the game to close off that 'loophole', soured me on his style. The NCSoft development team, while I may not always agree with their priorities, have over and over again showed themselves to be focused on making the game fun for the players, instead of just for the lead developer.
"But in our enthusiasm, we could not resist a radical overhaul of the system, in which all of its major weaknesses have been exposed, analyzed, and replaced with new weaknesses."
-- Bruce Leverett, Register Allocation in Optimizing Compilers
How do you reply to questions about Jack?
My feelings are neatly summarized in my sig.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone