So I just noticed Statesman is banned?
By
Alasdair,
Posted on: 2009-08-17 12:19 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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He wears two masks at the same time!!! |
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
Can someone explain the Statesman hate? I really don't get it.
Try and do it without referencing the comic if possible. If it's not possible, that's fine, the comic is canon, but I'd personally prefer a comic-free explanation. |
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Too simplistic. Not enough cross-dimensional Marcus Co-Els punching reality.
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Originally Posted by Mandu
They need to do a "Death of Superman" type thing. Statesman and Recluse can die fighting each other. Then we get Statesboy, Statesgirl, Statesborg, Statesbot, and Shaq... I mean Steel... I mean State.
And Recluse can get retconned into an emo EMT who can transform back and forth between normal guy and spider guy. |
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this thread has taught me one thing. there should be a major ingame event where pain and ultimus fight using super powered superfluous threads 
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The next time that you rescue Statesman from the clutches of Tyrant, left-click on States, and you'll see that he's identified as "Statesman - Level 54 ARCH-VILLAIN"! |
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
Can someone explain the Statesman hate? I really don't get it.
Try and do it without referencing the comic if possible. If it's not possible, that's fine, the comic is canon, but I'd personally prefer a comic-free explanation. |
'Nuff said, True Believer!
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dear god...not sure on that one >_> he's bad enough as is, but then giving him some mental powers...ugh|
Originally Posted by PhiloticKnight
I hate both, so what does that mean for me? I personally think he should be given an "honorable farewell" similar to what happened to Hero 1.
Actually, let's do EXACTLY that.... Riktify States so that we can kick his *** over and over again... PLEASE? PRETTY PLEASE? With sugar on top? |
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Originally Posted by Mandu
They need to do a "Death of Superman" type thing. Statesman and Recluse can die fighting each other. Then we get Statesboy, Statesgirl, Statesborg, Statesbot, and Shaq... I mean Steel... I mean State.
And Recluse can get retconned into an emo EMT who can transform back and forth between normal guy and spider guy. |
her name is Ms. Liberty
So.... Nobody actually has any good reason to hate Statesman, the in-game Superhero?
Without referencing the comic, Statesman is just a static quest giver that stands in IP, and a damsel in distress in one case.
Well, he also is the "blood, guts and swords, RARR!" big cheese in Cimerora, and joins you for one battle where he can promptly get his azz handed to him by Romans in loincloths and sandals.
In other words, he's very blah. I actually hadn't seen "current time" Statesman until I was a year into the game and did my first STF.
In the comic book, he's a self-righteous, arrogant jerk. Being a godling, he plays by the different rules than everyone else, yet he demands that everyone conforms to his vision. He may not be an obvious tyrant like Recluse, but he is just as domineering towards his fellow metahumans.
True, he IS our Superman, but unlike Superman, he isn't grounded in being "a farmboy from Kansas". He was a mercenary in his former life, and upon gaining the power of Zeus, he embraced demi-godhood with great zest.
Statesman the character lacks both humanity AND humility, and that makes him a very off-putting chap.
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Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
So.... Nobody actually has any good reason to hate Statesman, the in-game Superhero?
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I gave you a reason. Not my fault if you don't think that not using your powers effectively thus causing the unnecessary deaths of civilians is a "good" reason.
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They stole that from WAR. |
Originally Posted by Golden_Girl_EU
I like the idea behind the tutorial - and the little mini-missions with everyone joining in - it really feels like there are lots of Heroes coming together for a crisis - but it's totally ruined by both the look of the avatars, and the awful animations.
I'd really like to see something similar here, either as a zone or zone event. |
That isn't new to CO.
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This really made him more interesting in the comics. They could have blatantly ripped off Superman and end it there, but the dehumanization and arrogance added to the character. Problem was that the comic never lasted too long to actually show development of his personality and his in-game personality is just a Superman ripoff.
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Originally Posted by Extor_Prime
Without referencing the comic, Statesman is just a static quest giver that stands in IP, and a damsel in distress in one case.
Well, he also is the "blood, guts and swords, RARR!" big cheese in Cimerora, and joins you for one battle where he can promptly get his azz handed to him by Romans in loincloths and sandals. In other words, he's very blah. I actually hadn't seen "current time" Statesman until I was a year into the game and did my first STF. In the comic book, he's a self-righteous, arrogant jerk. Being a godling, he plays by the different rules than everyone else, yet he demands that everyone conforms to his vision. He may not be an obvious tyrant like Recluse, but he is just as domineering towards his fellow metahumans. True, he IS our Superman, but unlike Superman, he isn't grounded in being "a farmboy from Kansas". He was a mercenary in his former life, and upon gaining the power of Zeus, he embraced demi-godhood with great zest. Statesman the character lacks both humanity AND humility, and that makes him a very off-putting chap. |
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Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
Can someone explain the Statesman hate? I really don't get it.
Try and do it without referencing the comic if possible. If it's not possible, that's fine, the comic is canon, but I'd personally prefer a comic-free explanation. |
No cando kemosabe. I'm ambivelant about Jack and that leaves the character... who is mostly explained in the comic, not in-game. And it's not really hate per se, more like, meh.
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The thing is, that isn't true in the general case. It's only true in the specific case of one or two three-issue storylines. If you go back and read the whole Top Cow run you'll see that only a couple of writers take this tack with him. Yet, those writers are somehow the ones who have defined his character for a lot of people, especially the people who hate Jack Emmert already.|
Originally Posted by Extor_Prime
In the comic book, he's a self-righteous, arrogant jerk. Being a godling, he plays by the different rules than everyone else, yet he demands that everyone conforms to his vision. He may not be an obvious tyrant like Recluse, but he is just as domineering towards his fellow metahumans.
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This is why I have to wonder what happens when you take the comic out of the equation. The gimmick of having a half-dozen different writers was a cute gimmick but the result is that you have a half-dozen different takes on a character AND ONLY TWO OF THOSE WRITERS ACTUALLY HAD ANY INVESTMENT IN THE CHARACTERS. Those two being Troy Hickman and the team of Sean Fish/Matt Miller on the final issues.
And somehow, people focus on the drill seargent and ignore the guy who cared about his team or who embraced Foreshadow as a friend or who did any other positive and caring thing while leading the Freedom Phalanx.
So, yeah, you can't ignore the comics, but it seems to me that if you're going to give them so much weight that you ought to be spreading that weight around to the entire Top Cow run instead of letting a couple of issues of Statesman kicking Manticore's butt and Manticore mouthing off to him to be the defining moments for the character. Most of the comics might as well have been titled "Manticore (and friends)" anyway, for all the character development that the rest of the Phalanx got.
And if someone hates Jack Emmert and expresses it by hating The Statesman, then really, just let it go and move on already.
In a big way, this is really a failing of the game itself. It shouldn't be the case that the signature characters are blah nothings when you look only at the in-game material. The game itself ought to be the place you can go to judge what kind of characters these are.
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It has to be a Summer Event, with multiple cross-overs about the Death of Statesman, the Reign the Statesmen, and the Return of Statesman. Also, it should spawn a couple (at least) spin-off series, such as States and Statesboy.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Nobody ever dies for real in comics.
They could make a great storyline out of bumping off Statesman, then bring him back in the next issue or something. |
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Well, stealing from people who steal is ok then |
Originally Posted by Perfect_Pain
They stole that from WAR.
That isn't new to CO. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I guess we REALLY hate War Witch then, seeing as how she burned down a rave with her fire sword and directly caused the deaths of a bunch of innocent civilians, whereas these innocents killed by Statesman's negligence/incompetence/grandstanding appear to be mainly hypothetical...
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Originally Posted by PhiloticKnight
I gave you a reason. Not my fault if you don't think that not using your powers effectively thus causing the unnecessary deaths of civilians is a "good" reason.
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Fine points about the depiction of Statesman in the comics. |
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
The gimmick of having a half-dozen different writers was a cute gimmick but the result is that you have a half-dozen different takes on a character AND ONLY TWO OF THOSE WRITERS ACTUALLY HAD ANY INVESTMENT IN THE CHARACTERS. Those two being Troy Hickman and the team of Sean Fish/Matt Miller on the final issues.
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While it is obvious that Fish and Miller love the characters, their execution of dialogue and tempo in the plot was problematic in many places. I do give them high marks for the cameo by Ascendant in any case; well done. The overall effort had its highlights but also many drawbacks.
Troy Hickman, however, was very adept at pacing, dialogue and the overall plot. The "Nightmare Sequence" in particular gave a tremendous amount of poignant insight into all of the characters. I think he had the best handle on Statesman of any of the authors and produced a fine arc. To cut to the chase, there is an excellent reason there is a statue in Kings Row by the train station.
The canon says that Statesman was able to lead 1,000 heroes into near-certain death during the Alpha/Omega Gambit, and indeed, some 800 of them died. Hickman's Statesman could have possibly inspired 1,000 heroes to follow, but I doubt many would have followed the irritating fellow in other depictions.
It really does not honk my horn one way or the other, though. I enjoy CoH regardless of whether Statesman is "officially" a jerk or not.
"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"
"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."
I also really like this bit of lore from one of the plaques in Crey's Folly:
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It's very heroic, and very sad - but in an understated sort of way.
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"This plaque commemorates the last meeting of Statesman and Hero1. They were the heroes slated to lead the Alpha and Omega Teams, and they knew they would probably not meet again. "We had only a minute to say goodbye", Statesman said later. "So we didn't say anything". Although Statesman survived Alpha Team's strike on the entrenched Rikti troops, Hero1 and Omega team never returned from the Rikti dimension." |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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And also a reminder that if you are British it doesn't pay to be a hero.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
It's very heroic, and very sad - but in an understated sort of way.
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At least, that's my excuse.
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he's boring (as Superman analogs always are) and that half-helmet is silly looking.|
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
So.... Nobody actually has any good reason to hate Statesman, the in-game Superhero?
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He needs a re-boot!
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My City Was Gone
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What am I to make of *this*, then?!
| The next time that you rescue Statesman from the clutches of Tyrant, left-click on States, and you'll see that he's identified as "Statesman - Level 54 ARCH-VILLAIN"! |
AMERIKATT: Star of Stage, Screen, and Saturday morning cartoons! (Art by Psygon and ChristopherRobin)
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He's a double agent, pretending to be evil, but actually still good |
Originally Posted by Dr_Mysterioso
What am I to make of *this*, then?!
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
You want a reason to hate in-game States?
Well, here's his speech during the final VEAT mission:
"The criminal mastermind known as Dr. Brainstorm has somehow altered the fabric of the universe and allowed the archetypes of the Rogue Isles access to powers that they did not have previously.
By using the Hypothetical Frameworks used by inventors the world over, he laid the foundation of his master plan.
We believe that even Dr. Brainstorm could not foresee the full effects of this, as many of the heroic archetypes have found similar new sources of power.
Surely this is to maintain some sort of cosmic balance, but to be sure Positron as well as the city's top scientists are looking into the situation."
Long story short, Statesman hates Power Proliferation and that is why we kick his butt.
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I don't want to point out 'firsts' since there is probably a game that came before that did it, but CoH's zone events like the Steel Fires or the Skyway Troll Raves I actually see as being public quests before they were called public quests in WAR.|
Originally Posted by Perfect_Pain
They stole that from WAR.
That isn't new to CO. |
However, WAR packaged them up better, put them on an easy-to-follow timer and provided rewards for getting involved in them. In CoH/V, players do them for the badge and then never bother with them again.
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Make the Trolls and Hellions invasion style scaling mobs, and give them some interesting drops - I think there'd be more people gathering for them then |
Originally Posted by UnSub
I don't want to point out 'firsts' since there is probably a game that came before that did it, but CoH's zone events like the Steel Fires or the Skyway Troll Raves I actually see as being public quests before they were called public quests in WAR.
However, WAR packaged them up better, put them on an easy-to-follow timer and provided rewards for getting involved in them. In CoH/V, players do them for the badge and then never bother with them again. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
The tutorial is fun the first two or three times, after that its just not as fun. I have already done it two or three times. I don't want to do it again. I don't even want to make a new alt because I don't want to do it again.