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yes, like I said in an earlier post, my first post was very "doomy" and no longer feel that way.|
Originally Posted by perwira
Not obsolete. Just unique.
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I looked up that thread you mentioned and I wish him the best of luck in his solo empathy quest. Alot of people know its tough and that proves that alot of people know that the defender has much more difficulty soloing than anything else. You'll never see something similar to that in any of other class' forums. Possibly Corruptor, but as you said, they do, infact, play and feel differently. This is probably because they obtain their blasts quicker and have the almighty Scourge.
I also noticed the thread concerning a D3 wanting to solo AV's. Everybody is pretty much in a "lol Good Luck" state of mind. I truly hope he can do it. That would be awesome.
Vigilance 100% seriously needs a review. It just doesn't fit our concept nor does it help many of our primaries due to some of them having some form of endurance recovery anyway.
Whining about everything since 2006.
Ammo switching for Dual Pistols was my idea:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=135484
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I've tried responding to this so many times without coming across mean or condescending. |
Originally Posted by Vel_Overload
To keep this on topic:
And interesting thing sailboat, is that most classes aren't affected by the "team of alot of the same thing" syndrome. A team of 8 scrappers will deal 8 times the damage of a single scrapper logically no matter waht the powerset combination. A team consisting of 5-6 defenders will start to see deminishing returns. As there are so many roles a Defender can fill out. Controllers, corruptors and partially Masterminds also have this problem. As the more you fill a team with these classes, the less each one is capable of bringing to the team. Example: a second Kineticist won't do much to raise the damage of a team. A single Kineticist can cap the whole team's damage, so why grab another? Same can be said for Force Field, Sonic, Control sets, etc. Scrappers, Blasters, Brutes, and Tankers on occasion don't have this problem of "Deminishing Returns" So, thats another problem Defenders face but, others face it too. Defenders though, don't have a back-up role if this occurs. A controller has his/her secondary that plays as support just like the corruptor and mastermind. The Tanker can also play as a Back-up tank. The Defender, on the other hand, doesn't have anything like that. Our secondary is damage but our 0.6 damage multiplier isn't exactly contributing much when you compare it to the sum of the entire team's. |
There is no AT In the game that benefits MORE from teaming with itself. I encourage you to go google "Repeat Offenders." Hobo Healer used to have some great videos out there, but I wasn't able to quickly find any of them.
A friend and I formed an all Rad Superteam where we set the missions to Invinc while in KR and never lowered them again.. Honestly, it was so boring, we never did anything that overpowering again. All emp is also ridiculous.
I've run all defender Stateman's. I didn't time it compared to my all controller stateman's or all corruptor LRSF's, but they were all smooth as silk.
There's a reason why it's called the "Defender handshake."
My Characters
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Yes, I am 100% aware of the all defender STF. infact, it was the first all-same-AT-type run of STF. But now with IO's we are seeing Tankers do it, scrappers can do it. Anybody can do it.|
Originally Posted by Tatmia
I've tried responding to this so many times without coming across mean or condescending.
There is no AT In the game that benefits MORE from teaming with itself. I encourage you to go google "Repeat Offenders." Hobo Healer used to have some great videos out there, but I wasn't able to quickly find any of them. A friend and I formed an all Rad Superteam where we set the missions to Invinc while in KR and never lowered them again.. Honestly, it was so boring, we never did anything that overpowering again. All emp is also ridiculous. I've run all defender Stateman's. I didn't time it compared to my all controller stateman's or all corruptor LRSF's, but they were all smooth as silk. There's a reason why it's called the "Defender handshake." |
IO's really ruin our ability to stack our effects. Since everybody can practically soft cap their defenses now (for example), FF isn't exactly loving that idea. Niether is Empathy enjoying the fact that Tankers can fill the gaps in their armor set's weaknesses. Such as Invulnerability being able to actually defend agianst Psionic attacks etc.
But now we do not benefit as much as we use to from teaming with ourself. This is a good thing actually, we shouldn't be the best at only buffing ourselves and other Defenders. We should be the best at buffing others. Sadly IO's are stealing our thunder in that department.
Examples:
1. People are able to hit such high +recharge numbers that things like AC, RA and Speed Boost are no longer sought out for their amazing +recharge numbers. (unless your an Ill/Rad, but then you wouldn't be a defender now would you?). Kinetic Defenders get hit hard by this, as Speed Boost is one of our beloved gems that we boast about.. see sig.
2. With the ability to soft cap defense on practically any toon and AT (more easily done on Tankers and Scrappers), Force Fielders, And partially Cold Dominateers, Sonics and Empathies are feeling the hurt as mitigation sets. You don't need the protection from a Force Fielder anymore now with IO sets. Empathies have nobody to heal and 3 of Sonic's key powers are less important to the team. Cold also has 3 powers that really affect the team's surviveability.
3. Also concerning +Recharge and +Damage, this hurts Radiation. Radiation's toggles aren't considered practically "required" on tough taskforces such as STF. Like I said earlier, an all tanker STF was completed. This just shos that even tankers can now hit high damage numbers. Lingering Radiation is starting to even feel the hurt of IO's. Also, their other anchor-toggles aren't even seeing the light of day as enemies drop faster and faster as people are able to completely empower their attacks with powerful IO sets. Not to mention the -Damage and -tohit not being required due to Defense Soft cap.
--
Defenders benefit the most from being with each other is simply because we have nothing.
To clarify: We have zero resistance other than epic shield, we have zero defense, zero mez protection and minimal damage. So any buff on us is an increase to that particar stat infinite fold. +22.5% Defense form forcefield is a blessing to a defender. To a scrapper or a Tanker, they don't feel it as much. Same thing can be said for Resistance or +Damage. We don't have a "nitch" in any of those particular areas thus we are perfect candidates for our own buffs. Thats the only reason we synergize with ourselves more than any other class. But to say that Defenders should only group with Defenders is insane and thats not how the game was ment to be played. We were ment to fill in the holes of other AT's with our abilities but, sadly, this "art" is being spread around the masses in the form of not only IO's but also by given to other AT's.
Other AT's having our primaries wouldn't be a problem if we have something that made our Primary outshine their Secondary (Corruptors, Masterminds, and Controllers). Our primary multiplier is fine where it is, but there is little difference in a Defender's "Healing Aura 13.2%" compared to a Controller's "Healing Aura 11.6%". When have you ever said to yourself, "Jee, I wish this Empathy controlelr was a defender so his/her heals would be stronger?" You also have to consider the fact that healing isn't even the controllers job. It's "controlling" so it makes you wonder why their "Healing Aura" only heals 1.6% less of their allies' maximum health. It simply isn't fair.
Edit: I know you weren't trying to be mean, its simply a debate
Whining about everything since 2006.
Ammo switching for Dual Pistols was my idea:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=135484
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...what? The +recharge was always the -lesser- reason people wanted, and want, SB. It's the +recovery people want. Everyone wants +recovery. There is never enough +recovery.| 1. People are able to hit such high +recharge numbers that things like AC, RA and Speed Boost are no longer sought out for their amazing +recharge numbers. (unless your an Ill/Rad, but then you wouldn't be a defender now would you?). Kinetic Defenders get hit hard by this, as Speed Boost is one of our beloved gems that we boast about.. see sig. |
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| 2. With the ability to soft cap defense on practically any toon and AT (more easily done on Tankers and Scrappers), Force Fielders, And partially Cold Dominateers, Sonics and Empathies are feeling the hurt as mitigation sets. You don't need the protection from a Force Fielder anymore now with IO sets. Empathies have nobody to heal and 3 of Sonic's key powers are less important to the team. Cold also has 3 powers that really affect the team's surviveability. |
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| 3. Also concerning +Recharge and +Damage, this hurts Radiation. Radiation's toggles aren't considered practically "required" on tough taskforces such as STF. Like I said earlier, an all tanker STF was completed. This just shos that even tankers can now hit high damage numbers. Lingering Radiation is starting to even feel the hurt of IO's. Also, their other anchor-toggles aren't even seeing the light of day as enemies drop faster and faster as people are able to completely empower their attacks with powerful IO sets. Not to mention the -Damage and -tohit not being required due to Defense Soft cap. |
More to the point, a team of 8 Defenders will most likely take down an AV faster than a team of 8 tanks, especially with a few Radiation Emission or Kinetics Defenders on the team. 8 Radiation Emission defenders with 8 sets of Accelerate Metabolisms going will absolutely destroy virtually anything they come across, and any mezzes that do hit will be over before you even blink. Swap out 1 of those 8 for a Force Field Defender and bam, no mezzing.
Try running a team of 8 Blasters, then a team of 8 Defenders. I've done both, and the latter is by far the safest, most absurdly damaging thing I've ever seen, and unstoppable on a level Tanks only wish they could achieve, against pretty much any enemy in the game.
Your entire premise is flawed.
i rerolled a fire scrapper yesterday and find 2 teammates ... a tank and a blaster (around level 8) and i'm telling you all i wanted was a defender, even a level 5 would have been great.
everyone is talking about lvl 50 content but we all know that is not the biggest part of the game. Defenders are really useful as they are from 1 to 40 and they're still fun to play after that level.
Maybe Vigilance should be reworked but that's it
stop "DOOMING" all the time ^^
I have to say, Defenders excel at making up for a team's weaknesses. Whenever I come across something where the team stalls and has problems, if the problem is anything besides immense stupidity I think "If only we had a something/whatever Defender".
Stubborn AV? -regen. Running outta end? Kin, Emp, Rad (I think). Enemies hitting too hard? Pretty much any buffer can help.
I really suspect some people are only playing the game on paper because when I log in I don't see anything like what they describe in the forums. In the game that I play, not every teammate is a lvl 50 fully-accoladed, spare-no-expense IO'd build. Nor is every team composed of some ideal (on paper...) mix of power sets. What I see in-game is defenders sought after at all levels for all types of content. Obviously the OP's mileage may vary... on paper.
ps- debuffs maintain their utility no matter how IO'd people are
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I agree with Barbie_Ink's replies. |
Originally Posted by Vel_Overload
Yes, I am 100% aware of the all defender STF. infact, it was the first all-same-AT-type run of STF. But now with IO's we are seeing Tankers do it, scrappers can do it. Anybody can do it.
IO's really ruin our ability to stack our effects. Since everybody can practically soft cap their defenses now (for example), FF isn't exactly loving that idea. Niether is Empathy enjoying the fact that Tankers can fill the gaps in their armor set's weaknesses. Such as Invulnerability being able to actually defend agianst Psionic attacks etc. But now we do not benefit as much as we use to from teaming with ourself. This is a good thing actually, we shouldn't be the best at only buffing ourselves and other Defenders. We should be the best at buffing others. Sadly IO's are stealing our thunder in that department. Examples: 1. People are able to hit such high +recharge numbers that things like AC, RA and Speed Boost are no longer sought out for their amazing +recharge numbers. (unless your an Ill/Rad, but then you wouldn't be a defender now would you?). Kinetic Defenders get hit hard by this, as Speed Boost is one of our beloved gems that we boast about.. see sig. 2. With the ability to soft cap defense on practically any toon and AT (more easily done on Tankers and Scrappers), Force Fielders, And partially Cold Dominateers, Sonics and Empathies are feeling the hurt as mitigation sets. You don't need the protection from a Force Fielder anymore now with IO sets. Empathies have nobody to heal and 3 of Sonic's key powers are less important to the team. Cold also has 3 powers that really affect the team's surviveability. 3. Also concerning +Recharge and +Damage, this hurts Radiation. Radiation's toggles aren't considered practically "required" on tough taskforces such as STF. Like I said earlier, an all tanker STF was completed. This just shos that even tankers can now hit high damage numbers. Lingering Radiation is starting to even feel the hurt of IO's. Also, their other anchor-toggles aren't even seeing the light of day as enemies drop faster and faster as people are able to completely empower their attacks with powerful IO sets. Not to mention the -Damage and -tohit not being required due to Defense Soft cap. -- Defenders benefit the most from being with each other is simply because we have nothing. To clarify: We have zero resistance other than epic shield, we have zero defense, zero mez protection and minimal damage. So any buff on us is an increase to that particar stat infinite fold. +22.5% Defense form forcefield is a blessing to a defender. To a scrapper or a Tanker, they don't feel it as much. Same thing can be said for Resistance or +Damage. We don't have a "nitch" in any of those particular areas thus we are perfect candidates for our own buffs. Thats the only reason we synergize with ourselves more than any other class. But to say that Defenders should only group with Defenders is insane and thats not how the game was ment to be played. We were ment to fill in the holes of other AT's with our abilities but, sadly, this "art" is being spread around the masses in the form of not only IO's but also by given to other AT's. Other AT's having our primaries wouldn't be a problem if we have something that made our Primary outshine their Secondary (Corruptors, Masterminds, and Controllers). Our primary multiplier is fine where it is, but there is little difference in a Defender's "Healing Aura 13.2%" compared to a Controller's "Healing Aura 11.6%". When have you ever said to yourself, "Jee, I wish this Empathy controlelr was a defender so his/her heals would be stronger?" You also have to consider the fact that healing isn't even the controllers job. It's "controlling" so it makes you wonder why their "Healing Aura" only heals 1.6% less of their allies' maximum health. It simply isn't fair. Edit: I know you weren't trying to be mean, its simply a debate |
IOs have brought a lot to the game, but when you start talking capping, we are talking about end-game characteters. While I personally believe that farming/marketeering for an uber build is an excellent end game, it is expensive and time-consuming and requires slots that a leveling character does not have.
I enjoy that a rad is no longer required to succeed on a TF. You now see the badge/TF channels on servers have the same "bring what you want, we'll figure it out" attitude that SGs/coalitions have always had. All I ever see are the three categories defined, as in "Damage would be nice", "A buffer would help" or "Debuffers would be the preference."
Although, I do now giggle when I see teams specifically holding a spot on the BSF while they look for a stalker. Who woulda thunk?
My Characters
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QFE |
Originally Posted by Tatmia
I agree with Barbie_Ink's replies.
IOs have brought a lot to the game, but when you start talking capping, we are talking about end-game characteters. While I personally believe that farming/marketeering for an uber build is an excellent end game, it is expensive and time-consuming and requires slots that a leveling character does not have. I enjoy that a rad is no longer required to succeed on a TF. You now see the badge/TF channels on servers have the same "bring what you want, we'll figure it out" attitude that SGs/coalitions have always had. All I ever see are the three categories defined, as in "Damage would be nice", "A buffer would help" or "Debuffers would be the preference." Although, I do now giggle when I see teams specifically holding a spot on the BSF while they look for a stalker. Who woulda thunk? |
Edit:
Yeah, not "scientific, but on Victory they run a weekly group on Wednesday and the list is out of players here. And what AT is at top? Yeah, really obsolete. People will play what they want and not all are min/max'ers.
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As someone who has a cold corruptor, I can back up this point. I few of the people I regularly play with are defense capped to all three types and they still appreciate the ice shields because they remove all chance of cascading defense failure.
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Originally Posted by Barbie_Ink
This is flat out incorrect. Force Field has area mez protection, -even Scrappers and Brutes ask for Fortitude-, and the +DEF shields of Cold and Force Field are absolutely awesome. Not everyone (not even most people, really, in my experience) have soft capped Defense on their own. Certainly not to all three types.
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Being a person very interested in the future of Defenders, I would add my opinion to the mix on this idea. I am not overly optimistic how GR will affect the appeal of Defenders (Blue-side). But I think it helps to put this in perspective.
I started a SOLO quest to prove my opinions wrong, and I will admit the one flaw in my plan was setting him up with a slush fund. My first hero in the game was a defender (5 years ago) and even after several months I had not amassed enough Influence to set any of my toons with SOs in every slot. Invention origins didnt exist and my opinion of Defenders became very colored by this and other factors.
Flash forward to now, where I have at least 1 epic character who can provide financial assistance to ANY of my newbie characters. This Factor ALONE makes every character I play much better at surviving the first 20-22 levels (Which are the most difficult I believe).
Someone else had mentioned, and I TOTALLY agree, that if a friend were starting the game today, I would steer them away from team-oriented characters like Defenders, Controllers and Tankers even. And instead have them try a Blaster or Scrapper. Particularly a Scrapper, which combines good offense with very solid personal defense. This way they could learn the game first and enjoy it while they became familiar with what it takes to play a more strategic AT like a controller or defender.
So, in summary, anyone coming into a game like CoH who wants to play a more support role, will find in the near future more choices than when the game initially launched and be honest with yourself. If you have the choice between several different support styles and some of the choices were also pretty darn good at solo, or (shall we say) better at it than the other support choices, I think that most people will take the road thats somewhat easier and offers you the choice of "your cake and eat it too".
GR will not destroy defenders, nor will it convince hard-core defenders to give up their favorite characters, but I personally feel that controllers have kinda shoved us aside, now we will have more ATs getting in line in front of us.
Quit my AT, Never !!.
But I am a skeptic at heart I guess. We will have to wait and see how it pans out.
Keep on Defending Guys !
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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I might add that defenders spend 49 levels of their career not being (and generally their teammates not being) 50th level. You make a good point in that comparing purely 50th level (and IO'd out) content isn't representative.|
Originally Posted by SkeetSkeet
In the game that I play, not every teammate is a lvl 50 fully-accoladed, spare-no-expense IO'd build. Nor is every team composed of some ideal (on paper...) mix of power sets.
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Moreover, if you play pick up teams like I do, you really never know what you're in for as a defender. You have to be quick to adapt to the level, team AT/power composition and even combined team play style and chemistry to be an effective defender. If you can fight with both the best and worst of them and still enable the team to succeed, then you're doing your job right. I've have some of the most fun playing on teams with newer, lower level, well-intentioned players who didn't always get it right at first (and that includes me). Amongst the many archetypes, defenders often play a pivotal, multi-faceted role that can determine success or failure depending on how well they flexibly adapt to the team they're with.
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Except that the Defender would have half the damage output of the Scrappers. I've said it before, they need to have damage output or personal survivability (through whatever means). Right now, they have neither (in general, there are sets that perform better than others).
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Originally Posted by JusticeZero
Oh, this rubbish again? You do realize that if we could do this that it would be like the prenerf Regen Scrappers again, right? Imagine a bunch of people running around with regen similar to Regen's panic button, 24/7; more defense than a SR scrapper; endless endurance, full mez protection, and the ability to more or less use their Tier 9 Nuke as a part of their standard attack chain? Because that's what a self-buffing Empath can pull off.
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I think it will be interesting to see how defenders who actively seek/assemble teams do in the SSK environment, where teaming options have been immensely broadened.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
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Ah, the joy of anonymous reputation slagging (even though I have rep turned OFF).| you have said before, and you were equally wrong then |
It's a simple balance paradigm. You have to balance offense and defense. High offense means low defense. Low offense means high defense. The precise mechanisms are irrelevant, it's a general principle of game balance. I wasn't wrong then, and I'm not wrong now.
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Unless, of course, you place any value whatsoever on force multiplication.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Ah, the joy of anonymous reputation slagging (even though I have rep turned OFF).
It's a simple balance paradigm. You have to balance offense and defense. High offense means low defense. Low offense means high defense. The precise mechanisms are irrelevant, it's a general principle of game balance. I wasn't wrong then, and I'm not wrong now. |
But that would be madness!
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
Madness indeed.
What use is force multiplication when solo ?
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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That is true but the way defenders, in general, work they have a great deal of both offense and defense. They need to be in a team environment though to be able to leverage that ability. Indeed take them out of the team environment and many defender primary powers become useless.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
It's a simple balance paradigm. You have to balance offense and defense. High offense means low defense. Low offense means high defense. The precise mechanisms are irrelevant, it's a general principle of game balance.
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The devs obviously used a different paradigm when designing the defender. Instead of the defense<-->offense paradigm they went for a more team power<-->solo power paradigm.
The current count is 68/90 useful when solo for primaries
22/90 not usable when solo
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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Balance doesn't have to be (and shouldn't be) so linear. You can make the gameplay experience more varied by doing things such as giving a character type an average defense but instead of giving them an average offense to match it you give them a low offense in a certain situation and a high offense in other situations.
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
It's a simple balance paradigm. You have to balance offense and defense. High offense means low defense. Low offense means high defense.
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The trouble with situational offense or defense is that it runs afoul of the general principle when the character isn't in that situation. This is precisely the situation Defenders are in.
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Originally Posted by Garent
Balance doesn't have to be (and shouldn't be) so linear. You can make the gameplay experience more varied by doing things such as giving a character type an average defense but instead of giving them an average offense to match it you give them a low offense in a certain situation and a high offense in other situations.
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Meh, I'll take being brilliant in some situations and crap in others over being mediocre at everything.
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
The trouble with situational offense or defense is that it runs afoul of the general principle when the character isn't in that situation. This is precisely the situation Defenders are in.
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You posit: a situational ability goes against its general principle if the user is not in that situation|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
The trouble with situational offense or defense is that it runs afoul of the general principle when the character isn't in that situation.
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I posit: A situational ability by definition is only usable/useful in certain situations. If it works all the time then it's not situational.
Conclusion: I think what you mean is "situational abilities suck".
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It does depend on how common the situation is, and how greatly the lack of it affects you.
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Originally Posted by Garent
You posit: a situational ability goes against its general principle if the user is not in that situation
I posit: A situational ability by definition is only usable/useful in certain situations. If it works all the time then it's not situational. Conclusion: I think what you mean is "situational abilities suck". |
But yes, my concern is also solo-play. it is my #1 problem right now.
(...)
3. An example of the Defender's ability to solo can be gauged agianst other Archetypes simply by seeing how much extra skill is required once you raise the difficulty. A scrapper can boost his difficulty by +1 and see littel to no change in his pattern of play. But a Defender can have a difficult time with just a few more mobs. Certain Primaries are effected differently but as a whole the defender has much more trouble as the difficulty goes up comapred to almost every other AT.
But when I started my second-ever character as a Defender (now 50, still much of it solo), I wholeheartedly embraced her team and leadership role. It's who she wanted to be. Add to this that I (made a mistake when I as a newcomer to the game?) chose the electric blast set as her secondary set. Gimped? Hardly! With a carefully balanced selection of powers and IO sets, she shines both as a team buffer/supporter/healer and as an auxiliary enemy disabler, often at pivotal moments during the battle. I plan do a second build geared towards pure solo, but I decided to wait until I could properly fit her out with the proper IO sets, something I'm considering now with about 800m inf. As it is, she can still solo well, although I do often tweak the difficulty level according to the mission.
FWIW, I also play a dark blast / pain domination corruptor red side. While we can compare the two, they're really different as night and day - completely different concepts and play styles, yet neither one more or less effective than the other at what each does best.
Having said all this, I completely agree with you in that vigilance in particular should be reviewed to see how to make it fit in more effectively with the archetype of defender. Some folks have suggested some ways this can be done and I would support several of these ideas.
Not obsolete. Just unique.