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The defender inherent is the only inherent that rewards the player for doing a bad job. A good defender will never enjoy its benefits. That's the inherent problem with defenders.|
Originally Posted by Negate
Plus the vigilance buff comes in handy unless the team never goes into the red...and if that is so your diff rating is to low...or either you're on an amazing team...and i will tell you it's RARELY the latter.
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Dominators have always had a much easier time soloing than defenders, yet they received a significant damage boost to increase the popularity of the AT.
My guess is that the devs don't want to buff defenders too much for soloing because they're afraid that they will start refusing invitations from teams. After all, the whole concept is that they're supposed to be defending team mates.
The problem with the current inherent is that the endurance discount is too little too late. What good does the discount do if you're held? Or slowed? Or stunned or slept?
There's a far more useful inherent that fits the name "Vigilance" much better.
Vigilance should grant the defender small across-the-board status resistance and status protection buffs per team member. Say, a mag 0.5 status protection buff per team mate and a 20% status resistance buff, or whatever the devs deem appropriate.
On a team of three you would be proof against many common knockback attacks. On a team of five you would be immune to a single application of Hand Clap. On a team of seven you would not be held by a single application of most controller holds and stuns. And even if you are mezzed, the status resistance would lower the time you're out of the picture to mere seconds on large teams.
This is essentially what Khelds get when they're teamed with controllers and dominators. Does anyone remember what the actual buff numbers are per controller?
(QR to OP)
This is assuming that GR is a 100% complete switch to the other side. We don’t know what “Going Rogue" will actually mean until more info is released. Remember, the Devs idea of Shape shifting Powers was Kheldians.
A controller that’s spamming its DEF type powers is worthless to the team. If that’s all the Controller is going to do, then they are getting the boot for not doing their role. While a Controller can do the work or a defender, they aren’t as focused on it, and they shouldn’t be.
I would take a Def over a Corr if I’m looking for Buffs and the opposite if I was looking for DMG. In my experience, when playing with a DEF or Corr, the DEF is more team oriented. Keeping watch of the teams health and buffing religiously. Whereas the Corr are more focused on PEW PEW PEW.
And yes, Vigilance is one of the biggest P.O.S. power in game...
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I just wanted to emphasize this thought.|
Originally Posted by Hydrophidian
First of all, the ATs play differently, and the attitudes they engender can vary greatly. For example, a lot of people aren't going to join a team as an MM with the same mindset they'd keep to were they playing a Defender (many MMs I've teamed with have been much more focused on their own entourage than on their teammates). And if I'm playing a Controller, control is going to be my main contribution to a team. My secondary is just that... secondary. After all, if I wanted to play a Defender, I'd've played one. I'd say teams that expect Controllers, MMs, and even Corrupters to behave as Defenders will oft times be disappointed.
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The reason defenders will not become obsolete is because the people who choose to play defenders choose them because they want to play a buffing/debuffing/supporting role. Once upon a time you might have played a defender simply because you wanted Psy blasts or Dark Blasts, but that is no longer the case. When building a team, if a player wants buffs/debuffs, they are still likely to go with a defender. Of course these generalizations aren't going to apply to the entire playerbase, but if someone chooses to play a corruptor, chances are that they are going to be very interested in blasting stuff, likely to the detriment of their buffing. There will be players that want to play a support role who will choose to play a corruptor because they don't see the loss in the effectiveness of the buffs to be significant, but to assume that all corruptors fall into the category of characters that want to buff/debuff is foolish.
Naturally, there are some defenders that would rather blast than buff/debuff, but i suspect there are fewer defender blasters than there are corruptor buffers.
Also, as to the claim that defenders can't solo, my storm/psi defender solos on Unyielding (difficulty setting 4, to earn more drops and because invincible is too easy) and is looking forward to being able to up the difficulty several notches come i16. Granted, storm is one of the more offensive primaries, but I would not generalize that defenders can't solo. My storm/psi defender has a much easier time soloing than my ice/ice tank.
Draggynn on Virtue: lvl 50 Storm/Psi, 1389 badges
Draggynn's Guide to Storm Summoning(Gale-Tornado, updated 6/25/2011)
Avatar by Wassy full reference here
"Healers" were obsolete when the game was released.
Five years on and people still want them on their teams.
Defenders have nothing to worry about.
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Both of these statements are hardly "fact" even on the internet.|
Originally Posted by Vel_Overload
Anyway, Defenders of course will still be played but for the most part, its still unfair that Defenders are tougher to play as and have nothing special about their role anymore.
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Why is it so important that Corruptors do a bit more damage, but Defenders doing a bit more buffing/debuffing is inconsequential? The fact that the primary is Buff/Debuff should be a clue that the AT's main focus isn't about doing damage.
I have seen lots of Defenders solo well. Those that have problems will have them in exactly the same place that Corruptors do: dealing with mezzing foes. If they defeat mobs a bit more slowly, they still defeat the same mobs with the same difficulty in most cases, long as you balance your use of both sets. A bit of slowdown is reasonable in return for giving better buffs/debuffs on teams.
There are some points to be made about Controllers, but usually they are just caused by the fact that for some reason the Devs are willing to let Controllers have very strong versions of the buff/debuff powers, even while they correctly gave MMs relatively weak versions of buff/debuff powers. Corruptors are a non-issue, IMO, as they do a bit more damage, and buff a bit worse, and while that's better for soloing faster, it's hardly likely to win a Corruptor a spot on a team over a Defender. MMs play too differently, and have too low buff/debuff values, to compete on the same merits as Defenders.
If Controller buff/debuff values were lower, Defenders would be just fine.
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To be fair, Scourge as an inherent causes Corruptor damage to increase much more than a little bit. |
Originally Posted by BlackSly
Why is it so important that Corruptors do a bit more damage, but Defenders doing a bit more buffing/debuffing is inconsequential? The fact that the primary is Buff/Debuff should be a clue that the AT's main focus isn't about doing damage.
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People also forget that defender values on leadership are higher than those for controllers or corruptors.
If I ever saw a team leader choosing a controller or corruptor over a defender for the reasons listed, that would be an excellent sign that its time for me to leave. Nothing in the game is that hard.
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That's only true with PuGs. When forming TFs in global channels you get the full range of possible ATs even from players who are playing on other servers.|
Originally Posted by Vel_Overload
wrong, they do not compete because if the Team leader is a Hero then when he is searching for mroe members for the team he can only see other Heroes in the /who box. Villains also are only able to see Villains in the /who box thus thats not a very good comparison.
Also, you failed to mention that we "still" have terrible soloing skills. We can't solo as well as.. anything really. We may solo as well as Dominators but in reality theres a problem here. You cna say you'll take a defender over everything else well thay is great, thanks! But as time goes on people who want to play a support class will gravitate towards Corruptors, Masterminds and Controllers because they aren't such a hastle to solo and they find groups much easier. Sure there will be people who dont care who's on the team but in major Taskforces and Difficult scenarios, We will still be a Second Rate support class even though we are suppose to be the best of the best at the supportive roll. |
(ie: I can still see every thing going on in my Freedom globals even if I am playing on Justice at the time.)
I can switch to what ever hero (or villian) I want/they need for the ITF or LGTF.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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I stopped here and had to comment (and run to work). My favorite two ATs are Defenders and Dominators...|
Originally Posted by Vel_Overload
Also, you failed to mention that we "still" have terrible soloing skills. We can't solo as well as.. anything really. We may solo as well as Dominators but in reality theres a problem here.
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Evidently there's something drastically wrong with me and my mentality.
50s: Bla- Arch/Mental Cont- Mind/FF, Earth/Cold, Ill/Therm, Earth/Rad Dominator- Plant/Psi, Elec/Earth Corr- Fire/Storm, Arch/Sonic, Rad/Kin, Beam/Sonic, Psi/Time Stalker- Elec/SR Def- Storm/Dark, Emp/Psi, Dark/Elec, FF/Arch, TA/Ice, TA/Elec, Kin/AR, Cold/DP, Traps/Psi Scrap- Fire/Shield Tanker- Dark/Mace, Ice/Kin Brute- Claws/WP, SS/Energy, BS/Elec
I think the Defender Inherent, Vigilance, could use a look from the devs. It's not bad, and it works, but when you compare to every other AT's inherent it's poo. Every other AT inherent rewards their players for doing their job (Supremacy is debatable, I suppose). Every other also has use solo. The Defender inherent does none of this. It doesn't fit with what inherents are supposed to be (discerned from looking at all the other inherents)
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In the few situations where it gets to the point that I need extra endurance, it is too little too late. It just doesn't boost you enough so that you can heal and keep fighting if things are really hitting the fan. In fact, if you heal, it become counter productive to fast end recovery. When you get to bosses that can two shot someone, there just isn't any time for this mechanic to kick in at all.|
Originally Posted by Vel_Overload
...
Our Archetype-power (Vigilance) is almost worthless. First, most players pick up stamina, which greatly reduces the chance our Endurance will hit zero. Second, many primary power sets do not need the endurance discount. Kinetics has Transference. Empathy has Recovery Aura. Cold Domination has Heat Loss. Radiation Emission has Accelerate Metabolism. Force Field rarely needs endurance to operate. This leave very few Primaries that may actually have the need for it. Another problem with Vigilance is that it rewards bad Defenders. If a Defenders team is dieing then they get the discount. If a Defender is doing their job very well then they don't get a discount. You simply cannot reverse this either. A Good Defender, with a team not in a crisis, would not need a Discount in the first place. A Bad Defender probably isnt capable of handling a Crisis with the Discount anyway. This is simply a bad design and doesnt help us Defenders out in any way. ... |
That's one reason I would be for a change to at least a dom-like activation on Vigilance - so that when activated it would fill your end bar if not another inherent all together.
I'm a fan of the damage modifier to Defenders scaling upon how many team mates that they have. Defenders great advantage is on bigger teams where their heals/buffs/debuffs gain with each additional character that can take advantage of their use. So the smaller the team (the smallest being solo of course) means that the Defender is having less impact. Starting with a higher damage modifier at solo and scaling back to the present damage modifier once the team size has reached 4, doesn't seem to be too far out of line in regards to balance.
Shifting vigilance to some of sort of damage boost would be nice, but I think I'd rather have the defender inherent be some sort of scaling mez resistance (or protection): When the team is getting hammered, I'd like to be able shake off my drunken sailor status or statue impersonation a lot faster and help turn the tide of battle back in the team's favor ...
ElectricEmu said
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...ignorance is not stupidity. However, you _are_ overlooking some inherents of both types of Kheldian (the per-teammate bonuses) and of Tankers (More aggro for the only guy in the fight? Yay?)| I think the Defender Inherent, Vigilance, could use a look from the devs. [...] Every other AT inherent [...] has use solo. |
Edited to clarify which point I was responding to.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
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I solo on my Doms quite often (when I play them - I play Heroes far more than Villains). I think it is much easier to solo with a Dom than it is to solo with a Defender.
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Originally Posted by Vel_Overload
...We may solo as well as Dominators but in reality theres a problem here...
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What? The Kheldean bonuses are awesome!|
Originally Posted by Fulmens
ElectricEmu said
...ignorance is not stupidity. However, you _are_ overlooking some inherents of both types of Kheldian (the per-teammate bonuses) and of Tankers (More aggro for the only guy in the fight? Yay?) Edited to clarify which point I was responding to. |
Tankers get what they deserve. Tankers as a whole were not taking Taunt; therefore, a "+minor agro" was given to them to make sure that they doing at least some of the agro-magnet-ing that they were intended to do.
I have no doubt that you are a Tanker if you are in the Defender forums arguing how the Tanker's are an under-powered as an AT. It is sad that your tankertude brings you here to argue how your AT is under powers in a forum for an AT that can get crushed so easily and does far less damage than Tanks.
I've got six or so level 50 Blasters, two level 50 Scrappers, two level 50 FF defenders, one level 50 Rad defender, and one level 50 Tank. Also one level 50 Corr and one level 50 Brute, with a Stalker coming up fast.
But hey, if you want to believe you're the only person with alts... go ahead.
I was just trying to point out that kheldians don't get any bonuses for the teammates they didn't bring, nor does Gauntlet do anything for a solo tank. I could be wrong; feel free to clarify how.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Re: Vigilance
Hardly anybody likes it, so you're not alone here. Not even close. I'm always glad to see another slip added to the suggestion box, but you should know that this is a perennial topic on the board, and just about everyone has a dozen slips in the box already.
Re: Power proliferation
The corollary to power proliferation--i.e. that powersets shouldn't make the ATs unique--is that ATs should be made unique by #1 AT effect multipliers, or #2 inherents, or #3 stat caps (e.g. max hp).
Defenders lose on #2 and #3, nuff said.
On #1, defenders do have some significantly better effect multipliers, but only on a small fraction of defender powers. A defender is likely to have lots of powers which deal damage, or mez opponents, or have some AT-unmodified effect like recharge buffing or regeneration modification, and relatively few powers with a distinct defender advantage, like defense buffs and resistance debuffs. For that reason, I'd argue defenders lose on #1 as well. Having a moderate advantage on just three out of your twenty-four lifetime power picks (using HA/HO/Fort from empathy as the example, assuming AP isn't taken) shouldn't be the reason to roll defender.
Re: Inventions
Yes, IO set designs strike me as being from someone who's never played a balanced defender. Pure empath, sure, but not anything with damage+debuff combo powers, or slow+debuff, or endmod+anything. Heck, we had to fight for accuracy+heal.
Re: Going Rogue as the defenderocalypse in general
Powergamers have already left the defender AT in favor of controllers. The defender AT's playerbase mostly looks like this now: concept players, nostalgia players, newbies who minmax heals, whackos who tank with their defenders, and major whackos who actually like vigilance. Controllers can't draw those players away, and Going Rogue won't either.
(Not to say defenders don't need a boost, mind you. I'm just saying they're needing a boost regardless of masterminds going unrogue or not.)
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I second this. It's a lot easier to level any other AT solo than it is to level a defender solo, including EATs here.
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Originally Posted by The_Alt_oholic
I solo on my Doms quite often (when I play them - I play Heroes far more than Villains). I think it is much easier to solo with a Dom than it is to solo with a Defender.
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I hear this particular meme quite often as one of the critiques of vigilance and I feel it is not really accurate. It more or less implies that a good defender prevents a team from taking damage. Always and utterly. Which is untrue. Now granted it would seem particular sets might get more benefit out of it. (e.g. Sonic Resonance)|
Originally Posted by Rodion
The defender inherent is the only inherent that rewards the player for doing a bad job. A good defender will never enjoy its benefits. That's the inherent problem with defenders.
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Particularly on large teams the amount of average damage that a team is suffering from can be utterly trivial before noticeable benefits start to accrue from vigilance. On an eight man team if the average % of the teams HP are at 90% then your already getting almost a 50% endurance discount. Granted on small teams its not as strong but neither is it inconsequential.
This is not to say that I think vigilance is a great inherent. On the other hand it does what its advertised as doing and does it pretty well. Most of the complaints I see imply that it doesn't even do what it says it does.
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I’m going to have to respectively disagree as I feel that “some defender combinations” are more difficult to solo than other ATs.|
Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
I second this. It's a lot easier to level any other AT solo than it is to level a defender solo, including EATs here.
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Even though my Emp/Dark can solo, that would be a little silly on my part. She shines on a team. However, when waiting for teams in PI, I’ve been known to run around the parking lot having a blast. My Cold/Archery is still just 28, so I definitely prefer to team her. Even after ROA at 38, I’ll probably still keep her team oriented. Same with Sonic.
Those are the sets I avoid solo'ing.
My Kin/Sonic is an offensive juggernaut. Soloing her is similar to soloing a blaster.
My Dark/Psi solos like a controller in the 20s, extremely safe if not a little slow.
My Dark/Rad solos at a little faster clip than my Mind/psi dominator.
My Rad/Elec was built for a Superteam and I'm not a big enough fan of /elec to respec her. I’ve enjoyed my husband’s Rad/Sonic enough that I’ll be rolling one soon.
Once my Dark/Traps corr hits 50, I plan to start focusing on my Storm/Dark. I plan to solo her all the way to 50.
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Scrolling past walls and walls of text...
...yes, Epic Thread is now sufficiently Epic. That is all.
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I could support that. I'm not certain how to implement it fairly for some powers, I'm not certain it's currently mechanically possible with things like fire and forget bubbles, but It's an interesting and acceptable concept.
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Originally Posted by Bookkeeper_Jay
I would suggest the Defender be given an inherit that boosts the Defender's Debuffs/Buffs when the team is in danger, and when the team is doing fine to give the Defender a good damage buff (about 50% if the team is doing fine).
Now let me explain it intelligently that also works conceptually for the AT. "Vigilance allows the Defender, when his/her allies are in ciritcal condition, to search within himself/herself for the strength to overcome the odds often resulting in more powerful buffs or debuffs, and when his/her allies are at full fighting strength the Defender has an empowering feeling of accomplishment giving more power to his/her attacks" Basically if the team is gettin' hammered you get a sort of Power Boost effect to your buffs/debuffs, and when the team is doing fine you get a damage buff. Solo the scaling factor of buff/debuff to damage buff ratio would reflect on the Defender's own status. Just a thought. |
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specific build combinations are irrelevant if the average defender solos incredibly slowly compared to the average build of every other AT. Defenders however are so far behind in damage that corruptors and controllers bring more team support simply by their damage advantage completely outweighing the support value loss (damage is a form of support in and of itself).
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Originally Posted by Tatmia
Im going to have to respectively disagree as I feel that some defender combinations are more difficult to solo than other ATs.
Even though my Emp/Dark can solo, that would be a little silly on my part. She shines on a team. However, when waiting for teams in PI, Ive been known to run around the parking lot having a blast. My Cold/Archery is still just 28, so I definitely prefer to team her. Even after ROA at 38, Ill probably still keep her team oriented. Same with Sonic. Those are the sets I avoid solo'ing. My Kin/Sonic is an offensive juggernaut. Soloing her is similar to soloing a blaster. My Dark/Psi solos like a controller in the 20s, extremely safe if not a little slow. My Dark/Rad solos at a little faster clip than my Mind/psi dominator. My Rad/Elec was built for a Superteam and I'm not a big enough fan of /elec to respec her. Ive enjoyed my husbands Rad/Sonic enough that Ill be rolling one soon. Once my Dark/Traps corr hits 50, I plan to start focusing on my Storm/Dark. I plan to solo her all the way to 50. |
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I am pretty sure it is a very small minority who takes any of that into consideration when making a character. You make a defender (or corruptor) because you want to buff/debuff and shoot stuff in the face. One could argue that the shooting stuff in the face part is a bit lackluster, thus my "What the Hell?" thread.|
Originally Posted by Rigel_Kent
Having a moderate advantage on just three out of your twenty-four lifetime power picks (using HA/HO/Fort from empathy as the example, assuming AP isn't taken) shouldn't be the reason to roll defender.
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Originally Posted by Rigel_Kent
Re: Going Rogue as the defenderocalypse in general
Powergamers have already left the defender AT in favor of controllers. The defender AT's playerbase mostly looks like this now: concept players, nostalgia players, newbies who minmax heals, whackos who tank with their defenders, and major whackos who actually like vigilance. Controllers can't draw those players away, and Going Rogue won't either. (Not to say defenders don't need a boost, mind you. I'm just saying they're needing a boost regardless of masterminds going unrogue or not.) |
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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My Earth/Emp and Earth/Storm controllers are wondering where all the other same combo controllers are getting their "much better" damage than defenders.| Lets face facts people. Controller and Corruptors can do everything we can do and then some. Sure, their "Buff" powers have a lower multiplier but their damage is much better. |
RagManX
"if the market were religion Fulmens would be Moses and you'd be L. Ron Hubbard. " --Nethergoat to eryq2
The economy is not broken. The players are
Done many co-op teams, and from what I can tell, hardly anyone even cares whether a controller or corruptor may or may not be better than a defender. Most people just tend to see all 4 buffing/debuffing ATs as support, and in that case, it's generally whoever asked first that gets a spot on the team. Priority goes to Rads or Kins, though. :P
Is Defender performance less than comparable to Corruptors? Possibly, and if it is, I'm confident Castle will see it and work on it. But will the Defender population suffer even if he doesn't? I question that.