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Plant/Storm! |
Originally Posted by Fulmens
There are about four "specific combos" for Controllers that make the rep. Fire/Kin, Fire/Rad, Ill/Rad... I'm not sure what the other one would be
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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And Fire/storm as well. Ill/storm to a point since it's not as AoE focused. A Plant/ta would be no slouch either. All the more so if Oil Slick would light like it should. But really, when you are talking about broken high damage for controllers, it's Fire, Plant, and Ill. After that, there's not nearly as much that out does defenders.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Plant/Storm!
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And Plant/TA
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Plant/Storm!
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-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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And if you removed every defender with Kin/, Dark/, Rad/, and /Sonic you would see the defender population vastly drop as well. Overpowered sets might be popular but they have nothing to do with overall AT balance, that's an issue of power balancing. If you nerfed controller damage and controls significantly just because of a few overpowered builds, you're hurting A LOT of underpowered and balanced builds in the process. Likewise you shouldn't consider such sets when you are adjusting modifiers and you should address those sets on an individual basis not as a projection of the entire AT.
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Originally Posted by Fulmens
There are about four "specific combos" for Controllers that make the rep. Fire/Kin, Fire/Rad, Ill/Rad... I'm not sure what the other one would be, but if a glitch took those three combos off every server you'd see three times as many Defenders as Controllers, instead of the other way around.
"Specific build" matters. (see Firetankapalooza, or the Fire/Dev Summer of 2004.) |
I'm talking about most of the Controller population being three combos out of 56; you're talking about most of the Defender population being 30 combos out of 72.
You do see there's a difference there?
Anecdotally, I grabbed the first six people who wanted to come along on a Manticore the other day and I got two controllers, both Fire/Kin. What are the odds?
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
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Well the Fire/Kin population is rising fast, so that doesn't suprise me. Its always been popular among farmers, but now it is getting to rediculous levels. Just yesterday I was stood in Talos AE with 6 Fire/Kin Controllers and a Stone Tank.
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Originally Posted by Fulmens
I'm talking about most of the Controller population being three combos out of 56; you're talking about most of the Defender population being 30 combos out of 72.
You do see there's a difference there? Anecdotally, I grabbed the first six people who wanted to come along on a Manticore the other day and I got two controllers, both Fire/Kin. What are the odds? |
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My Ice/FF troller is a far 'worse' soloer than any of my defenders, my plant/thermal is not far behind. (though I know the plant/thermal will 'take off' soon the way I have built for a team focus is at least partly to blame)
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Originally Posted by RagManX
My Earth/Emp and Earth/Storm controllers are wondering where all the other same combo controllers are getting their "much better" damage than defenders.
RagManX |
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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Bah you're playing it wrong then. Ice/FF is the ultimate lazy man hero. Summon Jack, bubble the team, cast ice patch when it's recharged and spend the rest of the time chatting in global channels.|
Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
My Ice/FF troller is a far 'worse' soloer than any of my defenders, my plant/thermal is not far behind. (though I know the plant/thermal will 'take off' soon the way I have built for a team focus is at least partly to blame)
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If the team wipes you PFF and wait for jack to get done saving the team.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
Well .. I have just made a new defender and after reading this post I am about to delete him. I think I knew Vigilance was completely useless.
Maybe I should skip this whole defender thing. Getting some buffs early to run a Posi or Synapse .. big deal. I have a feeling a controller past level 35 is going to do pretty much EXACTLY the same things I am, only better. People complain about Posi endlessly anyway.
and Vigilance ... I was a bit confused at this power. I only get the benefit if my team is getting clobbered? Then I .... fire more attacks that do (quote from above) 0.6 dmg??? My attacks are less than a blaster, and I guess with the containment thing it sounds like controllers are going to do more damage?! a controller .. more damage than a defender, are you kidding me!?!
If defender is a support AT, how come a Peacebringer gets benefits for being on a team and a defender doesn't?!
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The problem is that IF a particular set is based around preventing the team from taking damage, then it is penalized MORE than a set that can expect to see greater damage, with it being healed afterwards. In general, you do get more benefit if you let your team take damage and only then take action. On the other hand, you get more benefit from Fury if you let your Brute get overwhelmed with foes and run a high risk of defeat. Playing well means balancing the potential of your Inherent with the best potential that you can maintain. |
Originally Posted by Arondell
I hear this particular meme quite often as one of the critiques of vigilance and I feel it is not really accurate. It more or less implies that a good defender prevents a team from taking damage. Always and utterly. Which is untrue. Now granted it would seem particular sets might get more benefit out of it. (e.g. Sonic Resonance)
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The bigger issue, I think, is where it is not just a matter of being a bad Defender, but where you are faced with a choice of sacrificing your Inherent to be a GOOD Defender. Granted you get a great benefit out of even small amounts of damage on large teams, but if you have to be on a large team to get Vigilance, then you are penalized in comparison to a Defender that doesn't have to be on that large a team.
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Jack comes when ?...
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
Bah you're playing it wrong then. Ice/FF is the ultimate lazy man hero. Summon Jack, bubble the team, cast ice patch when it's recharged and spend the rest of the time chatting in global channels.
If the team wipes you PFF and wait for jack to get done saving the team. |
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
Sure, Corruptors have better blasts. On the other hand, Defenders have better buffs.
Since when does any remotely competent player turn down anyone for a team anyway? I'd figure defenders and corrs would be pretty much interchangeable.
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I would point out that this too is something of an exaggeration. If your on any team at all and almost any amount of damage is received by your team mates then you will get an endurance discount from vigilance. Here is the table linked to on the CoH wiki page showing the benefits of vigilance. And again the implication that a good defender never allows any damage from occurring to the team. I would say a good defender prevents damage from being serious or from lasting very long. In my experience the only time you would get zero benefit from vigilance is if your not on a team at all.|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
The bigger issue, I think, is where it is not just a matter of being a bad Defender, but where you are faced with a choice of sacrificing your Inherent to be a GOOD Defender. Granted you get a great benefit out of even small amounts of damage on large teams, but if you have to be on a large team to get Vigilance, then you are penalized in comparison to a Defender that doesn't have to be on that large a team.
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I think a better complaint of vigilance is if your in a situation when all you can do isn't enough to prevent incoming damage from stacking up on your team is an endurance discount really what you need? On many teams I've been on, thanks to buffs such as Speed Boost or Radiant Aura, I had far more endurance then I knew what to do with. What use is an endurance discount under these common cirucumstances?
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Seems that way to me. Biggest difference is playstyle.
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Originally Posted by Prof_Backfire
I'd figure defenders and corrs would be pretty much interchangeable.
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Level 32. Prior to that you just bubble the team and drop ice patch. When the team wipes you PFF and wait for them to get back from the hospital. Team wipes are good in that case.... It gives you more time to chat since you aren't bothered with renewing bubbles or dropping ice patches.
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Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
Jack comes when ?...
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-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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The only way to find out if you actually like playing a Defender is to do it. I tried a couple things that were, by my theories, WAY BETTER than they turned out to actually be in play. And a couple that I liked far better than I expected to. |
Originally Posted by MrSuzi
Well .. I have just made a new defender and after reading this post I am about to delete him. I think I knew Vigilance was completely useless.
Maybe I should skip this whole defender thing. Getting some buffs early to run a Posi or Synapse .. big deal. I have a feeling a controller past level 35 is going to do pretty much EXACTLY the same things I am, only better. People complain about Posi endlessly anyway. and Vigilance ... I was a bit confused at this power. I only get the benefit if my team is getting clobbered? Then I .... fire more attacks that do (quote from above) 0.6 dmg??? My attacks are less than a blaster, and I guess with the containment thing it sounds like controllers are going to do more damage?! a controller .. more damage than a defender, are you kidding me!?! If defender is a support AT, how come a Peacebringer gets benefits for being on a team and a defender doesn't?! |
There's no earthly reason for me to have four Force Field defenders, for instance, and yet here I sit.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
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Um....
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
Level 32. Prior to that you just bubble the team and drop ice patch. When the team wipes you PFF and wait for them to get back from the hospital. Team wipes are good in that case.... It gives you more time to chat since you aren't bothered with renewing bubbles or dropping ice patches.
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I'm not going to be bothered to read the thread, I'm just going to assume that this has become relevant:
nerf controllers please
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I knew that of course, it was more a rheotrical statement about how this and the similar discussions seem to be comparing the usefulness of controllers with the full slate of powers and pets, then using the tier 1 blasts for defenders to show just how weak their blasts are.|
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
Level 32. Prior to that you just bubble the team and drop ice patch. When the team wipes you PFF and wait for them to get back from the hospital. Team wipes are good in that case.... It gives you more time to chat since you aren't bothered with renewing bubbles or dropping ice patches.
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Outside of the fire/kin I have (who is only 33), none of my controllers approach the damage my defenders bring to a team. Maybe the ice/storm does, but it has to be the 'right' team for that combination to be high damage (ie not caring about a little knockback now and then).
But I totally agree that the ice/ff is a very 'unintensive' character to play on a team. its a snooze fest for me
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
Wow, I thought this thread died. Well I'm sure ya'll know im the OP. I must admit i was in a slump when i wrote the original post. I no longer play my Defender, as he is retired and theres nothing left to do on him. Anyway, I'm sorry if I over reacted, as I did. But I did find some of the responses abit harsh and uncalled for. While I no longer have such a "Doom" attitude towards the subject of "Defenders Vs. the World" I must say that I'm still worried about the use of Defenders in the long run...
We still have a worthless and counter-productive inheritant power. We still have another archetype (soon 3) that we will be competeing agianst for team slots, although the Defender will still be played and still be the "H3@lz0rz" to most people, I still feel as if we are being thrown aside. This is mostly in the soloing department. I don't want us to solo on the level of, say, A Ill/Rad Controller but I would like so see some of our weaknesses being dampened as we have No mez protection, low to moderate damage, little to no defense or resistance and low health. Certain primaries are able to give us an "oomph" but many of our powers can't be used on ourselves, thus making many, many powers obsolete while soloing. More on this point later.
Our ability to buff is an amazing feat and nobody can do it better. The problem is that expertise and skill don't scale well with us like other classes. An expert controller can control -and- buff. An expert Defender can buff... better? Yes, the percentiles on the defender's buffs are higher than a controllers but sadly we do not have a secondary that synergizes well with our primary, unlike the controller (And Mastermind if you wish to bring them to the table). Corruptors get Scourge, thus they are exempted partially.
All I wish is that we get an Inheritant that some how links our Primary and Secondary abilities to where a "Good" or "Master" Defender can outshine a "Noob" or "Beginner" Defender. In some sets its easier than others to see a difference in play style between Noob and Pro (Looking at Empathy and Storm mostly). But in some, The difference is almost non-existant (Force Field and occasionally Sonic)
While throwing out ideas has been done... ALOT. Apparently the devs don't like them, or possibly just like the defender as is. I don't want controllers to be touched as they are not the problem. The problem resides within the Defender itself and I feel 100% that we can kill 2 birds with 1 stone simply by changing the Inheritant power.
My humble suggest is either:
A) Make it to where we can buff ourselves with our own buffs (such as sonic/force field buffs etc). If we buffed ourselves then we aren't allowed to buff our allies. So, for example: I cast "Deflection Shield" on myself, then all of my existing buffs on allies would automatically wear off. If I buff my allies agian, then all of my existing buff on me would automatically wear off. This would stop defenders from "Mage Tanking" within groups but would still allow us use of our powers even while not in a group. This would help Force Fielders, Sonics, Colds, Empaths, and even Kinetics (self-Speed Boosts.. yum.. Like a crack dealer doing his own crack) at times Solo while still keeping them as "Squishies" in group play.
Or make it to where a Defender cannot buff himself/herself at all if they join a team, so that they don't constantly buff themselves and contribute little to the team.
-OR- <-- notice the word OR, as i feel that having both would be too strong
B) Provide a damage buff while solo. I stole this idea from the Kheldians. Essentially When you are soloing you get a damage buff (Make it divisible by 7, lets say, 49% for an EXAMPLE) This buff is constant. If the defender joins a group then the buff goes down by 7% per player on the team, not including the Defender itself. So on a team of 3. the Damage would go down by 14% as there is the Defender plus 2 teammates. Thus 2 x -7 = -14%. Remember that these numbers are just examples to give you an idea of how it would work. This is so that Defenders can solo with some decent damage yet still be squishy on a team.
Remember, these are simply theories and shouldn't be taken to heart.
Once agian I apologize for my original post as it is very "doomy" when I read over it. I am also sorry for my responses to most of you. Once agian, still overly Harsh but I should have simply ignored you, thus, I am sorry for lashing out.
TLR VERSION:
1) I'm sorry for the Doomy Post and my answers to some responders
2) Defenders aren't obsolete but there are still issues that need to be resovled
3) Inheritant needs to be re-examined as well as Abilities that can't be used Solo
4) I wonder why this thread was revived... I blame Stalkers, As everything is their fault.
5) Controllers aren't the problem, so don't nerf'em
6) This is not a Nemesis Plot nor was there a Stealth Edit
Whining about everything since 2006.
Ammo switching for Dual Pistols was my idea:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=135484
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Right - more people play Defenders than Corruptors simply because they prefer blueside content or population. Open that amount of content and population to the redside ATs and I don't see Defenders coming out well unless they're dead-set on a Psi Blast or Empathy character (and once Corruptors get Psi Blast it's another nail in the coffin).|
Originally Posted by Fury Flechette
Corruptors and MMs *already* compete with defenders on two major Taskforces (ITF, LGTF). And yet there hasn't been a wholesale movement to exclude defenders from these.
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Yes, Defenders are a good AT when you compare them to what the other hero ATs have to offer, but when you bring Corruptors and to an extent Masterminds into direct competition, their weaknesses start to show - and no, two TFs and a handful of co-op arcs aren't "direct competition." When compared to Corruptors, Defenders have a lower damage mod, lower HP, lower damage cap, don't have Scourge, and lack access to two of the best sets in the game, Fire Blast and Thermal Radiation, all in the name of stronger buffs/debuffs and having access to those powers before Corruptors/Controllers/MMs. The better buff/debuff numbers just aren't worth it, IMO.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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i support this 100% percent, defenders from I1-I6 where my favorite AT, but i never play them anymore, damage sux, hp sux, theyre primary powers r solo-wise a joke for the most part, soloing with sonic/, ff, empathy,and soo on... its ridiculous, i dont c y anyone would even try to lvl one of these def's anymore, the Cox population is very low soo even if u were brave enough, theres a no garuntee anymore that youll be able to team 24/7 soo some days youll have to endure 1% a lvl everyone 2-4 hours because u cant kill squat
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Originally Posted by Vel_Overload
Now before anyone starts to flame me I'm posting an honest oppinion and feel its something we have to discuss.
First, Defenders are not Obsolete, yet. Once the new expansion "Going Rogue" comes out we, the defenders, will be in competition with not only Controllers anymore for groups that require support. We will also have to compete with Corruptors and to a lesser extent, Masterminds. Defenders are the only archetype that has "Buff" as a primary power selection. But at what cost? Extremely low damage (0.6 multiplier), poor soloing skills and a broken Archetype-power? Lets face facts people. Controller and Corruptors can do everything we can do and then some. Sure, their "Buff" powers have a lower multiplier but their damage is much better. Also, the Controllers have the ability to Hold, Confuse, and down-right stop the enemy from attacking the team in general, all the while having that lovely containment bonus. Corruptors are not that much better in the damage department but its still enough for them to out perform us. Masterminds also have supportive skills. They have Force Fields, the unique "Poison" power set and even a Healing set. So thats another contender for the support roll. Over-all we're being phased out. If you had to choose between a Kinetic Defender and say, a Kinetic Controller who would you honestly go with for soloing, or even as an extra teammate. Once "Going Rogue" is available Masterminds and Corruptors will also be a notch above us. Masterminds bring damage and have better survivability and Corruptors have scourge. What do we have? An endurance discount? Our Archetype-power (Vigilance) is almost worthless. First, most players pick up stamina, which greatly reduces the chance our Endurance will hit zero. Second, many primary power sets do not need the endurance discount. Kinetics has Transference. Empathy has Recovery Aura. Cold Domination has Heat Loss. Radiation Emission has Accelerate Metabolism. Force Field rarely needs endurance to operate. This leave very few Primaries that may actually have the need for it. Another problem with Vigilance is that it rewards bad Defenders. If a Defenders team is dieing then they get the discount. If a Defender is doing their job very well then they don't get a discount. You simply cannot reverse this either. A Good Defender, with a team not in a crisis, would not need a Discount in the first place. A Bad Defender probably isnt capable of handling a Crisis with the Discount anyway. This is simply a bad design and doesnt help us Defenders out in any way. Power Proliferation is something I really love and like to see but it is actually hindering Defenders. Dark Miasma and Cold Domination thus far are the only two primaries that Defenders have a monopoly of as of Hero Side. Agian, once "Going Rogue" comes out that will fade away. Corruptors have both and Masterminds have Dark Miasma. This wouldn't be a problem but once agian theres nothing that makes a Defender any better at Using Dark Miasma, Cold Domination and every other Primary besides a barely noticeable multiplier. To put it simply, we will no longer have "An Ace up our Sleeve" Lastly, With Invention Sets and Set Bonuses, this allows many characters to "Balance out" their character, such as adding extra defense or resistance to a blaster. These bonuses make characters alittle more durable and unneeding of a pure support role at times. These characters are not completely support-proof but they do show that it is possible to get away without the use of buffs. The bonuses don't truly substitute for a good Force Field or a Sonic Barrier, but they do reduce the ammount of support needed in a group. sometimes a single Empathy-using Controller is all it takes for a Tank and a team of Blasters to handle a tough Taskforce. This is a small problem but it is still a hinderence on the use of defenders. I would just like to ask the Developers what their future plans for the Defender are. So far our Coffin is ready for us, as Corruptors, Masterminds and Controllers can do their secondary job better than we can do our primary at times. I really do not wish to shelf my Defender, but at this rate, I may have to. Please help us, we don't want to become worthless. |
I don't get the whole deal of 'competing' for team slots anyway. If there's too many people going around for one team, start a new team!
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the buff primary also means that 1: our damage is competing with TANKERS, not scrappers, because of the relative survivability and 2: we can leverage damage enhancement more strongly.|
Originally Posted by Vel_Overload
Extremely low damage (0.6 multiplier)
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| poor soloing skills and a broken Archetype-power? |
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| Controller and Corruptors can do everything we can do and then some. |
Controllers are usually too busy controlling and choking down blues to use their buff powers to full effect, even if they had the slots to spare on getting them fully kitted out. MM's have even lower buff numbers, and even if they aren't massively end-heavy like the 'trollers are, they have an army of idiot pets to herd; they generally don't have time to buff the whole team too unless everyone is very patient.
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| all the while having that lovely containment bonus. |
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| If you had to choose between a Kinetic Defender and say, a Kinetic Controller who would you honestly go with for soloing, or even as an extra teammate. |
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| Vigilance.. rewards bad Defenders. |
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Power Proliferation is something I really love..but... Dark Miasma and Cold Domination thus far are the only two primaries that Defenders have a monopoly of as of Hero Side. |
No, nobody 'omgneeds' buffs. They're an edge; a big one. Godmode is always in demand. Defenders work fine. Get off your panic attack and play the dang game.
A no attack "Group-Friendly" Defender is like a "Team Friendly" basketball player who won't dribble, run, or shoot, under any circumstances. "I'm a PASSER."
There are about four "specific combos" for Controllers that make the rep. Fire/Kin, Fire/Rad, Ill/Rad... I'm not sure what the other one would be, but if a glitch took those three combos off every server you'd see three times as many Defenders as Controllers, instead of the other way around.
"Specific build" matters. (see Firetankapalooza, or the Fire/Dev Summer of 2004.)
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.