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I'd love Katana on blasters as well as a buff/debuff AT with melee attacks.
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Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
I'd love Katana myself.
In time I can see the possibility of some melee, or at the very least assault (from Doms) sets coming to defenders |
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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I REALLY want to see a new set of ATs as well.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I'd love Katana on blasters as well as a buff/debuff AT with melee attacks.
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Controllers got the Melee treatment on the Red-side with Dominators,
so I would love to see a Defender version done the same way.
Maybe Melee Primary and Buff/Debuff Secondary, and some defense/ranged in the Epics.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
I once suggested elsewhere that pure damage sets be interchangable. That is, you could take Energy Blast or Energy Assault or Energy Melee, and the overall power of each set would be equivalent. I mean, damage is damage, it doesn't matter much whether it's from a range or in melee.
I'd suggested it for Tankers, and the objection was that ranged attacks would make for even more mitigation for Tankers, which some deemed inappropriate. However, allowing Defenders to use melee powers wouldn't be more defensive, so I don't see an issue here.
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I'd rather a crummy player of most powersets than a smart player using trick arrow.
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Originally Posted by CoyoteShaman
The idea is to see if you can come up with something where a crummy one would be better than a smart player playing something else.
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I've always found better use of smart players regardless of sets being better than a crummy of any power set. Then again, that could just be me.|
Originally Posted by Garent
I'd rather a crummy player of most powersets than a smart player using trick arrow.
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Yes, I realize I just said "I'll take a smart player over a crummy one" if you take out the rest of the words. However, that's truly how I feel. Give me a team of 8 smart tankers/defenders/etc. versus the greatest team make up one could imagine full of 7 idiots.
50s: Bla- Arch/Mental Cont- Mind/FF, Earth/Cold, Ill/Therm, Earth/Rad Dominator- Plant/Psi, Elec/Earth Corr- Fire/Storm, Arch/Sonic, Rad/Kin, Beam/Sonic, Psi/Time Stalker- Elec/SR Def- Storm/Dark, Emp/Psi, Dark/Elec, FF/Arch, TA/Ice, TA/Elec, Kin/AR, Cold/DP, Traps/Psi Scrap- Fire/Shield Tanker- Dark/Mace, Ice/Kin Brute- Claws/WP, SS/Energy, BS/Elec
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As I said, this is theory ... and I dont understand why you think blasters secondaries are useless, blapper (using mostly secondary powers) is the most famous "I-do-not-play-as-intended"-AT |
Originally Posted by StormyDarkness
Maybe it's just me, but I never just play half a character. I use my primary and secondary about equally, regardless what character I'm playing. I blast with my Defenders, buff/debuff with my Controllers, shields with my Scrapper, attacks with my Tank, as well as actually using their primary. You can't be any true AT if you aren't utilizing both. One of the prime reasons I can't stand Blasters, I just find their secondary fairly useless and want to have a full character, not a half a character.
Defenders should blast and buff/debuff and the Controller should control and buff/debuff, if you want to play a true Defender or Controller. Depending on the the situation what power they should use, along with teammates, etc. This game is majorly a roll with the team you have. If you aren't adjusting your strategy for your team, then you are definitely wrong. |
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It's still boiling down to you favoring buffbots. Your argument is still boiling down to nothing more than you seeing defenders as better buffbots than controllers. I didn't misunderstand anything........you're coming through loud and clear. |
Just that these powers are ... well they are not your "main" powers
You are the only one talking about buffbots here ... hell I hardly understand what is a buffbot ^^ ... someone who only use buff/debuff/heal ? then yes defenders are better buffbots than controllers
... if def do not use secondary powers and controllers do not use their primary powers ... which is a big mistake if you ask me ^^I dont even know what is the discussion anymore, everyone is talking about something else ... we are lost in this thread ... I ... I thinks it's alive ! XD
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When I first started playing this game, I fully believed this as well.|
Originally Posted by StormyDarkness
I've always found better use of smart players regardless of sets being better than a crummy of any power set. Then again, that could just be me.
Yes, I realize I just said "I'll take a smart player over a crummy one" if you take out the rest of the words. However, that's truly how I feel. Give me a team of 8 smart tankers/defenders/etc. versus the greatest team make up one could imagine full of 7 idiots. |
And I STILL would rather play with a good team of skilled players over a team of idiots every day of the week.
However, I think on smaller teams, this idea breaks down a little.
My First regular team in this game was a Tanker, Scrapper and Blaster Trio.
Even playing well together and trying as hard as we could, we had lots of deaths.
But I have seen (Recently, I may add), a Team of 2 Defenders and 1 Controller simply MOW down hordes of mobs with little effort. Both trios were good players, but one team was utterly and completely superior in speed and safety.
This kinda leads me (and always seems to when I think too much about balance issues) that some kind of review of Defender powersets needs to be done.
Just my thoughts
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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What you described below is a buffbot. |
Originally Posted by _Starbird_
You are the only one talking about buffbots here ... hell I hardly understand what is a buffbot ^^ ... someone who only use buff/debuff/heal ? then yes defenders are better buffbots than controllers
... if def do not use secondary powers and controllers do not use their primary powers ... which is a big mistake if you ask me |
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Originally Posted by shaggy5
I would much rather have a defender on my team than a troller (or corrupter or MM). The reason is that a defender tends to concentrate on buffing much more. They seem to understand their role is to heal/buff/bubble, etc, while a troller for example has so many powers that they want to use that sometimes the support part gets left to the wayside. I like a defender because they are there to use their primary and any damage you get is a bonus.
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A controller is there to use its primary too, and your last sentence in the quote could therefore be the same argument for why you'd want a controller. But what you are really saying isn't that you'd prefer an AT to use its primary, you're preferring a buffbot......
By usual definition, a troller IS support. By the usual definition, anything that is not damage is support, including various mezzes.
Then again, I hate that definition. As far as I am concerned, that Blaster is only there to support me.
I keep hearing "AT X will be superseded by AT Y!"
And then I hear a day later, "AT Y will be superseded by AT X!"
I happen to love playing Defenders, though this was not always the case. I hate playing Corrs. I really don't know why. Maybe, possibly, conceivably, people will stop inviting me to teams. (Which I think is total crap. Will Defenders suddenly lose their ability to add to a team, somehow?) *If* that ever happens, and the number of Defenders drops off, you think maybe the Devs might step in and give them a buff?
I look at these things like filters. If a team leader is stupid enough to not want me on his team because he's ultra-paranoid about getting the 'perfect' team composition...that's a team I would gladly, gladly be kicked from....
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I heard something else from what Starbird said. I thought a "buffbot" was someone who always used a specific set of powers from their primary and never varied from a set pattern. The classic example being an empathy defender who sticks heal on auto and auto follows one individual and never attacks.|
Originally Posted by brophog02
Your words, not mine. Whether you realize it or not, or intending it or not, you're saying simply that you prefer a buffbot, because that's their "role". )
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What Starbird said is that a good defender "tends to concentrate on buffing much more." What you seemed to have heard him say is that a good defender only uses their primary.
Having played mostly defenders myself I will fully admit to putting an emphasis on my primary powers. This hardly translates to ignoring or not using my secondaries. Most of my builds end up with two to four blasts and maybe a couple utility powers from the secondary. Does this make me a buffbot? Well I never thought so before.
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I think this is because the people who love corruptors have for the most part left the Defender forums, leaving those who enjoy Defenders here. Also, that doesn't stop the occasional other AT to come in and say the same type thing of Defenders are pointless.
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Originally Posted by Mrwrk
I keep hearing "AT X will be superseded by AT Y!"
And then I hear a day later, "AT Y will be superseded by AT X!" |
50s: Bla- Arch/Mental Cont- Mind/FF, Earth/Cold, Ill/Therm, Earth/Rad Dominator- Plant/Psi, Elec/Earth Corr- Fire/Storm, Arch/Sonic, Rad/Kin, Beam/Sonic, Psi/Time Stalker- Elec/SR Def- Storm/Dark, Emp/Psi, Dark/Elec, FF/Arch, TA/Ice, TA/Elec, Kin/AR, Cold/DP, Traps/Psi Scrap- Fire/Shield Tanker- Dark/Mace, Ice/Kin Brute- Claws/WP, SS/Energy, BS/Elec
My defender is still my favourite character and will still be when going rogue applies. Those multipliers mant a lot to me and getting the powers earlier......... hell I hated waiting till 38 for EMP on my Ill/Rad, really felt sloppy compared to my defender until then and still feel like I need to use powerboost to close the gap. The better secondary effects on the secondary powers helps too, all in all I love defenders and would always pick them for a team
Having run an all defender STF I here by put it to you that all other ATs are already redundant and merely fillers and support for the teams defender
"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
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This type of team is very doable, but is a lot easier if the tanker and scrapper have certain armor sets. Some defense sets perform better on their own without support than others, mainly the ones with a self heal.|
Originally Posted by Biospark
However, I think on smaller teams, this idea breaks down a little.
My First regular team in this game was a Tanker, Scrapper and Blaster Trio. Even playing well together and trying as hard as we could, we had lots of deaths. |
Not that this is applicable to the defender forums...just chipping in.
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That would be a problem... except I've never seen an MM that acted like a tank... except for mine of coarse. My bot/ff/mace is neigh unkillable and gets heat from the brutes for charging ahead of them :3 The vast majority of MMs don't keep their pets in defensive and don't even know how durable they are when they do. So no. MMs are not a threat to tanks. Brutes on the other hand....|
Originally Posted by Quaver
Even the title of the thread disagrees with your second statement. No AT in this game is obsolete, even if Defenders become less popular they'll never be useless. Personally I think Tanks are going to have a problem with Masterminds overshadowing them.
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But anyway. Back on topic. I agree with the OPs opinions. Defenders already lose out to controllers late game. GR will just compound the issue. Vigilance is the worst inherent out there. It's made obsolete by epics, which most have a +endurance power and it's unreliable. It really only kicks in on a bad team.
"The bird of Hermes is my name. Eating my wings to make me tame." -The Ripley Scroll
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Maybe it's just me, but my Defenders get way more invites to teams than my Controllers (yes, late game included).
�Alas, regardless of their doom, the little victims play!� - Thomas Gray
I was on a team the other day and something made me laugh. I was on my Kin/Energy Defender and was duoing with a friend who also had a Defender. After playing a bit we decided to run a full team for a while. I picked up another Def and 3 Controllers and a Blaster. Last of all I found a Tank. The first thing he said when he got on the team was, "Woo hoo! 3 defenders!". He said 3 Defenders. Not Controllers. So our value is still seen by some.
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2. Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity
3. Someone who thinks logically provides a nice contrast to the
real world
The key difference between defenders and controllers/masterminds/corruptors is that defenders tend to concentrate on their primary and so the team tends to feel the benefit more than with any of the others, that isn't even counting for the better numbers.
On my Fire/Kin I am awful with handing out the SB's since I am concentrating on the Fire Control part, yet on my Empathy defender everyone without mez protection is constantly CM'd since I actively look for that kind of thing.
That is the main reason defenders are wanted, and always will be.
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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Defenders always get more invites, because the community sees them as buffbots. They also get a lot more tells concerning their powersets, for the same reason.
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Originally Posted by HexGirl
Maybe it's just me, but my Defenders get way more invites to teams than my Controllers (yes, late game included).
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Interestingly, for sheer volume of invites, my SCRAPPER gets more than anything except my bubble Defender.|
Originally Posted by HexGirl
Maybe it's just me, but my Defenders get way more invites to teams than my Controllers (yes, late game included).
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Maybe it's because of the Captain America theme I used for him...
Not even my Tanker gets as many invites as that Scrapper.
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I think this is the key. In general, Controllers focus on control, Corruptors want to blast things and MMs are more focused upon their pets than you. Defenders are not only better at their de/buffs, but they're more willing to use them.|
Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
The key difference between defenders and controllers/masterminds/corruptors is that defenders tend to concentrate on their primary and so the team tends to feel the benefit more than with any of the others, that isn't even counting for the better numbers.
On my Fire/Kin I am awful with handing out the SB's since I am concentrating on the Fire Control part, yet on my Empathy defender everyone without mez protection is constantly CM'd since I actively look for that kind of thing. That is the main reason defenders are wanted, and always will be. |
This is no way changes the fact that the Defender secondary is underpowered, their inherent is a joke, and they're usually the hardest AT to solo.
But I'd also argue that a well-played Defender is often the strongest component to any team, and a team stacked with defenders will typically out-perform a team stacked with a different AT. I haven't seen anything beat the kind of mob-crushing and AV-obliterating power that a 5-6 Defender team can enable.
So, in terms of power, my Defs are giants on teams, and poor solo, but that's how the AT ought to play, isn't it?
I like the idea of them still being squishy and lower on direct damage, but I'd like to see the Inherent switched to some form of mez-protection like Blasters have. The damage bonus wouldn't fit the AT, but a broader mez-protection would. Perhaps so they can still use all of their Primary powers?
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There's a common theory in PuGs that you need 1 Tank, 1 healer and 6 damage dealers.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Interestingly, for sheer volume of invites, my SCRAPPER gets more than anything except my bubble Defender.
Maybe it's because of the Captain America theme I used for him... Not even my Tanker gets as many invites as that Scrapper. |
On the days when there's no tanks about, my tank gets a lot of invites from everywhere, but on the weekends she usually gets none.
My scrappers always get a lot of invites, but usually to those 1/1/6 teams.
My defs get less invites than my scrapers, but they're from a better range of teams
I hate to pile on, but...
I think that obsolescence a relative thing. If you are a controller on a team with a good tank/defender combination you will feel obsolete. If you are a scrapper on a team stocked with good AOE damage, you might feel useless as well. Even tanks get frustrated when they team with trigger-happy trollers. Of course, since it is the object of the game to take out big groups of bad guys, AOE damage will probably never feel out of place.
It helps to pick your spots when playing a def. Some team leaders invite defenders as insurance or just simply to get a full team. When I'm invited to a team, I try to find out if they really need a defender. If it looks like they don't need my power set, I politely decline.
Sever traffic can also be a problem. I only make my support toons on Virtue and Freedom to maximize my chance of finding teams. During low volume hours, I just play other archetypes.
I think PrincessDarkstar really hit it right on.
Just a sidenote to what PrincessDarkstar said, defenders have higher buff multipliers. It really does make a big difference. Especially comparing MMs with defenders.
In regards to the defender inherit power, I really liked the idea someone mentioned about a "critical buff". Maybe something like a 10% chance to have a buff give its regular buff number, plus 25% extra. For example, you have a heal that hits 10 people and 9 of them gain 100 hp and 1 guy gets the critical buff; that guy would then gain 125 hp. I think it's an interesting idea that would fit well with the idea that defenders' primary focus is to help teammates. Keep in mind that I just made those numbers up off the top of my head and they could obviously be tinkered with.
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Bingo. I've been advocating for this a long time.|
Originally Posted by Harkness
I like the idea of them still being squishy and lower on direct damage, but I'd like to see the Inherent switched to some form of mez-protection like Blasters have. The damage bonus wouldn't fit the AT, but a broader mez-protection would. Perhaps so they can still use all of their Primary powers?
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The term "Vigilance" is kind of silly for an AT that is constantly held and stunned. The logical change to the inherent is some kind of mez protection, perhaps a clickable that is built up like Dominate as you use your primary powers. It could retain the reduced End Use (because that's pretty minor as is, and it would provide an interesting quandary for Defenders on when to use it -- I'm low on End: should I click it now or save it in case I get mezzed?).
Dominate provides mez protection in addition to increased efficacy with control powers, so this would not be at all overpowered for Defenders.
This would essentially be a rechargeable permanent Break Free. Unlike the current Vigilance it would give something to solo Defenders, and like Dominate, it could be made to recharge more quickly on teams.
In time I can see the possibility of some melee, or at the very least assault (from Doms) sets coming to defenders
50s: Bla- Arch/Mental Cont- Mind/FF, Earth/Cold, Ill/Therm, Earth/Rad Dominator- Plant/Psi, Elec/Earth Corr- Fire/Storm, Arch/Sonic, Rad/Kin, Beam/Sonic, Psi/Time Stalker- Elec/SR Def- Storm/Dark, Emp/Psi, Dark/Elec, FF/Arch, TA/Ice, TA/Elec, Kin/AR, Cold/DP, Traps/Psi Scrap- Fire/Shield Tanker- Dark/Mace, Ice/Kin Brute- Claws/WP, SS/Energy, BS/Elec