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Originally Posted by taekoUSA
If I am putting a team together for a TF, I would still want Empath Defender over a Pain corrupter/MM.
What I PREFER to play is my Pain MM over my Empath Defender. I really don't think most Defenders have anything to worry about, but then again not all defenders are created equally ie. Traps. But it's not like when I put a team together, I have to make these hard choices. I am lucky if I can even find a defender, corrupter and a Pain MM all on at the same time for a TF these days. |
If I am running a TF an Empath is the last defender I would look at if no others were avail
I'll take a smart team playing Empath Defender over a crummy anything. It's the person behind the screen that makes a power set combo work or not. If you have "Healz0r" empaths, I'll take a 2nd or 3rd tanker.
Note: I'm still planning on bringing Defenders to red side so I can go toe to toe with Corruptors and show them who's the boss.
50s: Bla- Arch/Mental Cont- Mind/FF, Earth/Cold, Ill/Therm, Earth/Rad Dominator- Plant/Psi, Elec/Earth Corr- Fire/Storm, Arch/Sonic, Rad/Kin, Beam/Sonic, Psi/Time Stalker- Elec/SR Def- Storm/Dark, Emp/Psi, Dark/Elec, FF/Arch, TA/Ice, TA/Elec, Kin/AR, Cold/DP, Traps/Psi Scrap- Fire/Shield Tanker- Dark/Mace, Ice/Kin Brute- Claws/WP, SS/Energy, BS/Elec
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I'm sorry, and I certainly don't mean this to be rude, but isn't that kind of a silly thing to say? Wouldn't you take a smart team playing [XYZ] over a crummy ? I mean you could put any AT/build in the first item and it would be equally true, right?|
Originally Posted by StormyDarkness
I'll take a smart team playing Empath Defender over a crummy anything.
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For instance:
I'll take a smart team playing Dual Blades Scrappers over a crummy anything.
I'll take a smart team playing Earth Controllers over a crummy anything.
I'll take a smart team playing Plant Dominators over a crummy anything.
I'll take a smart team playing Dark Tanks over a crummy anything.
I'll take a smart team playing etc. over a crummy anything.
Right?
It's like saying "I'd rather have a bad steak than cold poop." Duh.
Sorry, I know that sounded rude, but I'm just trying to point out that what you said really didn't say anything good about empath defs. In fact, by suggesting you'd select smart ones over crummy other things is actually kind of insulting. I wouldn't want to hear someone say they'd rather have me as their software engineer instead of a really crummy one. Gee, thanks. Damming with faint praise, I think it's called.
I'd be happy to admit I'm speaking out of turn if you could show me any AT/build where it would be better to have really crummy players of something else than a team of smart players with that AT/build.
Robin
--If we can have huge sig images, why can we have only five lines of text?
--...faceplanting like a Defender pulling an AV (Nalrok_AthZim)
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
...I have the patience of a coffee-fueled flea...
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If I already have good buffs on the team, I'd probably take a crummy Rad defender/controller/corruptor over a lot of other things. Even a crummy Rad is likely to toggle the AVs, and after that it doesn't really matter what they do. Sure, they could do so much more, but eh, I'll take EF and the Nemmy staff.|
Originally Posted by CoyoteShaman
I'd be happy to admit I'm speaking out of turn if you could show me any AT/build where it would be better to have really crummy players of something else than a team of smart players with that AT/build.
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I ran a STF once where the pick-up Ill/Rad apparently felt the only way to win was to exploit getting LR stuck. They felt they were experts and knew the best and only way to do anything. Without asking the team, they had toggled LR and got him stuck, so we beat down the towers. After the towers were down we started fighting LR but he got unstuck and fell. We merrily kept beating on him but the Ill/Rad did not follow. I asked him to come down and help, but he said we were all going to die and he would just wait up top until we all died and listened to him. So we killed LR without him doing anything but having his toggles up, but that was actually pretty helpful.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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The idea is to see if you can come up with something where a crummy one would be better than a smart player playing something else. Saying "if a smart player already did all of this, then I would settle for a crummy version over there if I had to" really isn't even close.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
If I already have good buffs on the team...
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In fact, you're kind of proving my point. The comment to which I was responding was not actually in favor of empath defenders at all. There is really never a crummy anything that would be preferable to a smartly played something else.
Unless you're saying that crummy Ill/Rad 'troller would have been your first choice over a smartly played anything else, that is.
--If we can have huge sig images, why can we have only five lines of text?
--...faceplanting like a Defender pulling an AV (Nalrok_AthZim)
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
...I have the patience of a coffee-fueled flea...
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I would much rather have a defender on my team than a troller (or corrupter or MM). The reason is that a defender tends to concentrate on buffing much more. They seem to understand their role is to heal/buff/bubble, etc, while a troller for example has so many powers that they want to use that sometimes the support part gets left to the wayside. I like a defender because they are there to use their primary and any damage you get is a bonus.
Global Name: Denver Nugget
Playing since i3 on 8 servers
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I am indeed saying that. We had bubbles and an Emp. I was happier with that crappy Ill/Rad than I would have been with a lot of buffers, even if they were great. We did not need more defense, just more offense. I believe the EF provided more damage for the team than many defenders would have added, no matter how good they were.|
Originally Posted by CoyoteShaman
The idea is to see if you can come up with something where a crummy one would be better than a smart player playing something else. Saying "if a smart player already did all of this, then I would settle for a crummy version over there if I had to" really isn't even close.
In fact, you're kind of proving my point. The comment to which I was responding was not actually in favor of empath defenders at all. There is really never a crummy anything that would be preferable to a smartly played something else. Unless you're saying that crummy Ill/Rad 'troller would have been your first choice over a smartly played anything else, that is. |
Edit: I should clarify. I would rather fail an STF with good/mediocre players having fun than succeed with bad players just because we had the "right" powersets. But objectively, I can also see when it might be "better" to have a bad/mediocre player if they have the "right" powerset.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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This is true on my statement, however, some seem to have the mind set that all Empathy players are bad players. There are good Empathy players out there and I'd rather have that player than the buff bot Kinetics that only SB and ID everyone and then stands around for the rest of the time.|
Originally Posted by CoyoteShaman
I'm sorry, and I certainly don't mean this to be rude, but isn't that kind of a silly thing to say? Wouldn't you take a smart team playing [XYZ] over a crummy ? I mean you could put any AT/build in the first item and it would be equally true, right?
For instance: I'll take a smart team playing Dual Blades Scrappers over a crummy anything. I'll take a smart team playing Earth Controllers over a crummy anything. I'll take a smart team playing Plant Dominators over a crummy anything. I'll take a smart team playing Dark Tanks over a crummy anything. I'll take a smart team playing etc. over a crummy anything. Right? It's like saying "I'd rather have a bad steak than cold poop." Duh. Sorry, I know that sounded rude, but I'm just trying to point out that what you said really didn't say anything good about empath defs. In fact, by suggesting you'd select smart ones over crummy other things is actually kind of insulting. I wouldn't want to hear someone say they'd rather have me as their software engineer instead of a really crummy one. Gee, thanks. Damming with faint praise, I think it's called. I'd be happy to admit I'm speaking out of turn if you could show me any AT/build where it would be better to have really crummy players of something else than a team of smart players with that AT/build. Robin |
Defenders should utilize both primary and secondary. Those that aren't, are not good Defender players.
50s: Bla- Arch/Mental Cont- Mind/FF, Earth/Cold, Ill/Therm, Earth/Rad Dominator- Plant/Psi, Elec/Earth Corr- Fire/Storm, Arch/Sonic, Rad/Kin, Beam/Sonic, Psi/Time Stalker- Elec/SR Def- Storm/Dark, Emp/Psi, Dark/Elec, FF/Arch, TA/Ice, TA/Elec, Kin/AR, Cold/DP, Traps/Psi Scrap- Fire/Shield Tanker- Dark/Mace, Ice/Kin Brute- Claws/WP, SS/Energy, BS/Elec
I think in General Rad and Dark Buffers are happy b/c it's a bit less demanding than Kin and Emp. I know if I play aKin or emp after an hour or two I feel like I just ran a marathon.
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That's actually why I used to LOVE playing my Emp. A single mission would exhaust me and make me feel like I was the most important person in the world.|
Originally Posted by Negate
I think in General Rad and Dark Buffers are happy b/c it's a bit less demanding than Kin and Emp. I know if I play aKin or emp after an hour or two I feel like I just ran a marathon.
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Then I couldn't find a team for the life of me and couldn't solo for anything and quit playing defs altogether. So sad.
--If we can have huge sig images, why can we have only five lines of text?
--...faceplanting like a Defender pulling an AV (Nalrok_AthZim)
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
...I have the patience of a coffee-fueled flea...
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I hear you Robin,|
Originally Posted by CoyoteShaman
That's actually why I used to LOVE playing my Emp. A single mission would exhaust me and make me feel like I was the most important person in the world.
Then I couldn't find a team for the life of me and couldn't solo for anything and quit playing defs altogether. So sad. |
This is why I started playing controllers for awhile back in the beginning.
They were good at team support and Able to solo, albeit very slowly.
Then Containment came along and I thought I had found my niche.
I think IOs have really saved all bad builds and poor soloers, if you know what you are doing.
Of course, I am sure that IOs have turned the Good combos and Solo builds into absolute machines, but oh well.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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Their "role"?|
Originally Posted by shaggy5
I would much rather have a defender on my team than a troller (or corrupter or MM). The reason is that a defender tends to concentrate on buffing much more. They seem to understand their role is to heal/buff/bubble, etc, while a troller for example has so many powers that they want to use that sometimes the support part gets left to the wayside. I like a defender because they are there to use their primary and any damage you get is a bonus.
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Their role is to enjoy playing the game. Anything they are doing is helping the team succeed.
By your definition, you're simply saying that a defender is a better buffbot than a troller. You want a buffbot, and not a troller or defender.
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i think you misunderstood|
Originally Posted by brophog02
Their "role"?
Their role is to enjoy playing the game. Anything they are doing is helping the team succeed. By your definition, you're simply saying that a defender is a better buffbot than a troller. You want a buffbot, and not a troller or defender. |
if a controller has the choice for his next power, he'll probably chose an AoE hold or something controlly when a defender will chose to debuff or buff or heal if necessary ... it's the basics of CoH : primary and secondary powersets
but that's only theory ... blappers, scrankers etc proves you can do whatever you want ^^
Anecdote:
The team I was on to get both the Master ITF and Master KhanTF badges, 2 defenders no controllers. I was a scrapper on these.
The team I was on running a +4 level STF successfully, 2 defenders (of which I was one) 2 controllers (Both Illusion).
Im just not seeing defenders overlooked at the highest game levels.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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dis
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Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
Im just not seeing defenders overlooked at the highest game levels.
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@Rooks
"You should come inside the box... Then you'll know what I mean."
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Now now, I'm not whacko, I'm just delightfully mad |
Originally Posted by Rigel_Kent
Powergamers have already left the defender AT in favor of controllers. The defender AT's playerbase mostly looks like this now: concept players, nostalgia players, newbies who minmax heals, whackos who tank with their defenders, and major whackos who actually like vigilance.
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�Alas, regardless of their doom, the little victims play!� - Thomas Gray
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superior defender numbers are good for sets unaffected by power boost like Sonic Resonance, the grantable shields going from 23% slotted on a Controller to 32% on a Defender, which to me seems a worthy difference, seeing as if you're doing anything where a controller's holds would help you would probably have another defender or controller for back up anyway as I feel Sonic is best as a buffer/debuffer working in tandem with another powerset; so you might as well max out those resist numbers. |
Originally Posted by Rigel_Kent
Powergamers have already left the defender AT in favor of controllers. The defender AT's playerbase mostly looks like this now: concept players, nostalgia players, newbies who minmax heals, whackos who tank with their defenders, and major whackos who actually like vigilance. |
Also, if they released Thermal Radiation for Defenders, the numbers would be ridonkulously awesome sonic def level shields and emp def level heals (granted minus AP), not to mention a more powerful forge, melt armour and heat exhaustion = epic win
Oh and if you play blueside you can't play Dark Miasma without being a Defender so there's that too.
@Rooks
"You should come inside the box... Then you'll know what I mean."
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Maybe it's just me, but I never just play half a character. I use my primary and secondary about equally, regardless what character I'm playing. I blast with my Defenders, buff/debuff with my Controllers, shields with my Scrapper, attacks with my Tank, as well as actually using their primary. You can't be any true AT if you aren't utilizing both. One of the prime reasons I can't stand Blasters, I just find their secondary fairly useless and want to have a full character, not a half a character.|
Originally Posted by _Starbird_
i think you misunderstood
if a controller has the choice for his next power, he'll probably chose an AoE hold or something controlly when a defender will chose to debuff or buff or heal if necessary ... it's the basics of CoH : primary and secondary powersets but that's only theory ... blappers, scrankers etc proves you can do whatever you want ^^ |
Defenders should blast and buff/debuff and the Controller should control and buff/debuff, if you want to play a true Defender or Controller. Depending on the the situation what power they should use, along with teammates, etc. This game is majorly a roll with the team you have. If you aren't adjusting your strategy for your team, then you are definitely wrong.
50s: Bla- Arch/Mental Cont- Mind/FF, Earth/Cold, Ill/Therm, Earth/Rad Dominator- Plant/Psi, Elec/Earth Corr- Fire/Storm, Arch/Sonic, Rad/Kin, Beam/Sonic, Psi/Time Stalker- Elec/SR Def- Storm/Dark, Emp/Psi, Dark/Elec, FF/Arch, TA/Ice, TA/Elec, Kin/AR, Cold/DP, Traps/Psi Scrap- Fire/Shield Tanker- Dark/Mace, Ice/Kin Brute- Claws/WP, SS/Energy, BS/Elec
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While I love my defenders, I frequently wish for the ability to bash, slash, or slam enemies in the face, as well as having range attacks. I frequently miss having access to stuff like Fire Sword, Havoc Punch, or Ice Sword when playing a defender. |
Originally Posted by StormyDarkness
You can't be any true AT if you aren't utilizing both. One of the prime reasons I can't stand Blasters, I just find their secondary fairly useless and want to have a full character, not a half a character.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
I dont play villians and Defenders are my favorite class. I would take a emp defender over anything.
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Originally Posted by _Starbird_
i think you misunderstood
if a controller has the choice for his next power, he'll probably chose an AoE hold or something controlly when a defender will chose to debuff or buff or heal if necessary ... it's the basics of CoH : primary and secondary powersets but that's only theory ... blappers, scrankers etc proves you can do whatever you want ^^ |
It's still boiling down to you favoring buffbots.
Your argument is still boiling down to nothing more than you seeing defenders as better buffbots than controllers.
I didn't misunderstand anything........you're coming through loud and clear.
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Same here. I rarely have seen a team that would kick/unprefer a defender just because it wasn't a controller.|
Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
Im just not seeing defenders overlooked at the highest game levels. |
Pigeonholed by people who consider them to have a specific 'role' is a different story, entirely (which is very common at the highest game levels).
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I'd love Katana myself.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
While I love my defenders, I frequently wish for the ability to bash, slash, or slam enemies in the face, as well as having range attacks. I frequently miss having access to stuff like Fire Sword, Havoc Punch, or Ice Sword when playing a defender.
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In time I can see the possibility of some melee, or at the very least assault (from Doms) sets coming to defenders
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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Originally Posted by Vel_Overload
Our secondary is damage but our 0.6 damage multiplier isn't exactly contributing much when you compare it to the sum of the entire team's.
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Complete bullcrap, especially with AoE heavy sets like Dark.
If I am putting a team together for a TF, I would still want Empath Defender over a Pain corrupter/MM.
What I PREFER to play is my Pain MM over my Empath Defender.
I really don't think most Defenders have anything to worry about, but then again not all defenders are created equally ie. Traps. But it's not like when I put a team together, I have to make these hard choices. I am lucky if I can even find a defender, corrupter and a Pain MM all on at the same time for a TF these days.