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Great Idea. A very logical change that would provide a great help. It solves what many see as multiple problems with the AT all at one time. It also eliminates the "bad logic" that inherents like the original Defiance and Vigilance represent. |
Originally Posted by Biospark
I have also suggested a stacking endurance savings generated by the blast powers much like blasters get a damage boost that stacks. This would encourage defenders to actually use both their powersets, even on teams.
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Originally Posted by Rodion
Bingo. I've been advocating for this a long time.
The term "Vigilance" is kind of silly for an AT that is constantly held and stunned. |
I also don't see it happening. The Blasters didn't get mez protection, but they did get an ability to use their weakest attacks while mezzed. The Khelds didn't get mez protection either, but they did get the opportunity to drop into Dwarf form (again denying them of what is usually their best attacks). If Defender inherent were changed at all to provide any sort of mez related assistance, it would likely be at a similar cost of functionality.
I am not sure I like the idea of critical chances, I would hate to have to bubble everyone 10 times until the critical bubble stuck.
I semi like the endurance discount from using the 2ndry set idea, and it is better than currently but I don't really think an endurance discount is here nor there and would prefer something more useful.
However both ideas could be combined into our version of domination, your blasts build up your 'defiance' bar and when it is full you can pop defiance for a % increase in the effectiveness of your primary powers for the duration. They could even make it stupdly overpowered like domination!
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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I understand where you're coming from, and in some sense IOs have made endurance no longer a huge balance metric. But then again, that's with taking stamina.......which at this point is almost automatic for most people. |
Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
I am not sure I like the idea of critical chances, I would hate to have to bubble everyone 10 times until the critical bubble stuck.
I semi like the endurance discount from using the 2ndry set idea, and it is better than currently but I don't really think an endurance discount is here nor there and would prefer something more useful. |
With that idea though, you wouldn't necessarily have to do so. That may not seem like much, but imagine the possibilities of having potentially 3 power slots back. To fit in Stamina, Defenders generally have to forego either Leadership powers or powers from their secondary. Many don't mind this because too many have taken their role as buffbots and treat any damage as a bonus.
I'm not sure how 'domination' idea would work considering defender primaries are already borderline overpowered (with knowledgeable players and not buffbots one could say they are indeed overpowered at this point). Dominators function off of the idea that they start out with weaker primaries with low durations, and domination kicks everything up a notch. I'm not real sure Defender primary values can be moved up any.
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They would never dare buff the best buff/debuff powers in the game.|
Originally Posted by brophog02
... I'm not sure how 'domination' idea would work considering defender primaries are already borderline overpowered ...
I'm not real sure Defender primary values can be moved up any. |
A team of 6, or even 4, defenders has almost ridiculous amounts of "steamroll" ability.
Any change to the current (pathetic) inherent would have to be either equally pathetic, or have a serious downside.
Defenders have enough buff/debuff, enough damage, enough recharge... Any more of those would make all-defender teams even MORE powerful. Ain't gonna happen.
They (can) have enough endurance too, but more of it isn't all that significant.
I like the idea of encouraging the use of blast sets, and also being useful for solo as well as in teams! (poor tankers)
Regeneration/max HP? That could work. Mez resistance could also be the key. Both would fit well with the "Vigilance" title, but where's the downside?
Seriously though my 'fendery friends, we are so good as we are, I doubt there there will ever be a change.
-Morty
wow and wow...
this thread gets too wordy!
I appreciate the OP's pov but its a bit melodramatic... but whatever it takes to get more attention to the devs i hope... though it aint gonna happen.
I sure does seem like others are encroaching over the Defender's area and we're literally getting overshadowed. IMO, i think they need to amp up the def's primary mags, to get them to shine clearly over the controllers in that dept. I mean, Defs were not meant for serious damage, right? Im sure some would like to argue that, but isnt that is why we're called Defenders in the first place?
So, magnify up with what we're suppose to do good, and that'll help the "average" defender to shine forward as a "support" choice. Peeps complaining that we're the slowest AT to solo. Refer to the previous paragraph plz. Or get a bit smarter and ensure you have a -Resist power if you have strong solo tendencies. Otherwise, its just a bunch of the same cheeseheads who keep doing the same whining about how they cant have their cake and eat it too for the past 5 yrs.
Well, i found that you can, a couple yrs ago. Run 2 defenders together!!! (PS - just finished with a monster IO build and gonna post a video that'll blow peeps minds about def's offensive/defensive capabilities...)
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Actually, if a differentiation were to occur, it would probably be to bring controllers secondaries down.
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Originally Posted by PHlRE
IMO, i think they need to amp up the def's primary mags, to get them to shine clearly over the controllers in that dept.
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I agree, thats most likely what would happen, and I for one do not want to see that.|
Originally Posted by brophog02
Actually, if a differentiation were to occur, it would probably be to bring controllers secondaries down.
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It would be better to slightly redefine the defender a bit and make it stand out from controllers in another way.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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I wouldn't hold my breath. Vigilance came was released on 9/20/2005 after the other ATs inherents came out and the defender community asked "where's ours". It took about a week to push it to production. Again defenders seem to be a dev afterthought (after combining blaster and controller powers and also having damage and HP reduced to "low"). Since then Blasters have even gotten a revamped inherent. I guess having new low damage secondaries and shared primary sets compensate?|
Originally Posted by Quaver
If it gets THAT obviously bad, surely some change to Vigilance is waiting in the wings...
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I'm not sure what can be done to make vigilance a worthwhile inherent. There have been tons of good ideas floated around for years, most of which wouldn't infringe on anything else other ATs do, but still nothing as much as a "we're looking into it" has been said.
I beleive post 38 there isn't much of a need for Defenders when compared to Controllers but on Defenders being obsolete; I think they are as obsolete as the player behind the keyboard. Mind you I've been on a STF where a Controller tanked LR; something a Defender (and even some tanks) could never do.
Defenders are great and was the first AT I played, and where my first 3 50s. I then started playing Scrappers and haven't regretted it. But I can't help but feel like a sidekick while playing a defender as opposed to a hero when playing a scrapper.
Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
Arc Name: Tsoo In Love
Arc ID: 413575
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Gasps!!! |
Originally Posted by EnigmaBlack
something a Defender (and even some tanks) could never do.
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EB, maybe I should set up some all def STFs for you (if you still have your defender) to try some night on Victory.
Heck, I use to have a link to a SS of an all def MSTF about a year or so ago. On my Darkstorm STF (6 dark/2 storm defs), we just debuffed and ignored LR and took the towers down, then him right afterwards w/o bothering to tank him. So yeah, defenders can handle LR but in their own fashion.
And on a side note, I have been on enough STF to have seen LR tanked by each of the tanker primaries and would say any tanker can tank LR.
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I've been on a couple of all Defender STFs, they were by far the smoothest STFs I've ever been on. But it's different when you have 8 defenders going against LR. We would normally just ignore LR and focus on the towers. The controller that tanked LR was on a mixed team so we didn't have the luxury of all the buffs/debuffs. He tanked him while we took down the towers.|
Originally Posted by PennyPA
Gasps!!!
EB, maybe I should set up some all def STFs for you (if you still have your defender) to try some night on Victory. Heck, I use to have a link to a SS of an all def MSTF about a year or so ago. On my Darkstorm STF (6 dark/2 storm defs), we just debuffed and ignored LR and took the towers down, then him right afterwards w/o bothering to tank him. So yeah, defenders can handle LR but in their own fashion. And on a side note, I have been on enough STF to have seen LR tanked by each of the tanker primaries and would say any tanker can tank LR. |
I'd be down for another all Defender STF. I've been thinking on leveling up a Rad/Sonic this weekend that I've had on my second account for a couple of years. if you plan on one sooner (Mon or Tues are the best days) I can one of 2 darks, 2 kins, I'm sure I have another 50 Defender but I forget.
Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
Arc Name: Tsoo In Love
Arc ID: 413575
ok, maybe can Vigilance and do something else more useful....
how about when a teammate or yourself is getting to a low HP point, a select few of your primary powers are powered up for a certain amount of time? Like either your Healing, Buffing, Debuffing powers? Kind of like a weaker, longer-lasting version of PBU?
what you think of that?
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So change the endurance reduction Vigilance provides to a fluctuating and constant +special bonus? Sounds interesting enough, but there are some sets that'd benefit much more from it than others, and some secondaries that'd get more usefulness from it (Rad, Ice, and Dark, especially). Of course the same could be said for any tweak made to Vigilance, but the idea seems fairly solid on the basis that as teammates get weaker, the Defender gets more powerful. On top of that, you could add a small damage buff that also scales with teammates' health - oh, making Vigilance's benefits apply based on your own HP as well as that of your teammates would be excellent, as it'd make Vigilance into a useful inherent for soloers. Of course, you'd probably want Vigilance to calculate the +special/+damage based on the total HP remaining of all teammates including yourself, so you wouldn't have to wait for one person to get into trouble before you really start noticing a benefit. If not adding the damage buff into Vigilance, just bump up the damage modifiers up to 0.6 melee/0.7 ranged.|
Originally Posted by PHlRE
ok, maybe can Vigilance and do something else more useful....
how about when a teammate or yourself is getting to a low HP point, a select few of your primary powers are powered up for a certain amount of time? Like either your Healing, Buffing, Debuffing powers? Kind of like a weaker, longer-lasting version of PBU? what you think of that? |
The only reason I'd suggest adding the damage buff is because that seems to be a popular change to make when you're revisiting ATs (Dominators, Stalkers, Kheldians), probably due to the fact that debuffs don't kill things - damage does. This is potentially another reason why Scrappers, Blasters, and Brutes are so popular (they essentially trade utility and control - not necessarily survivability, in the case of Scrappers and Brutes - for damage).
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
after the 130th or so post, I've decided I'm gonna make a ff/storm def for s**ts & giggles and cause I love to be frustrated. Makes me work harder.
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What about making it a reverse scaler for the damage. So everyone is full hp and happy = you do moar damaj, but when everyone is sad and beaten your heals buffs and debuffs are stronger? That way you are automatically powered up in the aspect of your char that would be of most use (most of the time |
Originally Posted by macskull
So change the endurance reduction Vigilance provides to a fluctuating and constant +special bonus? Sounds interesting enough, but there are some sets that'd benefit much more from it than others, and some secondaries that'd get more usefulness from it (Rad, Ice, and Dark, especially). Of course the same could be said for any tweak made to Vigilance, but the idea seems fairly solid on the basis that as teammates get weaker, the Defender gets more powerful. On top of that, you could add a small damage buff that also scales with teammates' health - oh, making Vigilance's benefits apply based on your own HP as well as that of your teammates would be excellent, as it'd make Vigilance into a useful inherent for soloers. Of course, you'd probably want Vigilance to calculate the +special/+damage based on the total HP remaining of all teammates including yourself, so you wouldn't have to wait for one person to get into trouble before you really start noticing a benefit. If not adding the damage buff into Vigilance, just bump up the damage modifiers up to 0.6 melee/0.7 ranged.
The only reason I'd suggest adding the damage buff is because that seems to be a popular change to make when you're revisiting ATs (Dominators, Stalkers, Kheldians), probably due to the fact that debuffs don't kill things - damage does. This is potentially another reason why Scrappers, Blasters, and Brutes are so popular (they essentially trade utility and control - not necessarily survivability, in the case of Scrappers and Brutes - for damage). |
)The only problem I could see with this is the way damage boosts work, you'd have to alter the damage cap and make defs potentially highly damaging even in bad times. Maybe if the devs could invent a sliding scale AT damage modifier....
ano impossiblez prolly but i cans dreem :<
@Rooks
"You should come inside the box... Then you'll know what I mean."
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I think most people would see that as penalizing the Defender. No other inherent reduces ability.
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Originally Posted by Rooks
What about making it a reverse scaler for the damage. So everyone is full hp and happy = you do moar damaj, but when everyone is sad and beaten your heals buffs and debuffs are stronger? That way you are automatically powered up in the aspect of your char that would be of most use (most of the time
)The only problem I could see with this is the way damage boosts work, you'd have to alter the damage cap and make defs potentially highly damaging even in bad times. Maybe if the devs could invent a sliding scale AT damage modifier.... ano impossiblez prolly but i cans dreem :< |
reduces with one hand and gives back with the other? but yeah I guess it is pretty flawed. oh well, I'm out of ideas for now lol. I do think defenders could benefit from a better inherent (lol statement), giving them more of a draw than just greater buff numbers. Maybe they don't need it? The debate continues lol
@Rooks
"You should come inside the box... Then you'll know what I mean."
Just a slight thought on how to improve Vigilance:
Make each power in both the Defender primaries and secondaries have a small chance (1 to 10%) for a PBAOE buff to fire off. I'm mainly thinking of a small +end or heal aura, but taking into account Empathy and Kinetics, who may not benefit as much from those, there are probably better choices. It would be best if the chance for the auras firing were based on the recharge and general use of the skills (for example, although they may recharge pretty fast, you don't need to be constantly applying shields in the middle of battle, so they'd have a slightly higher chance), and making the effects of the primaries different from the secondaries would be nice to help encourage mixing things up a bit and not sticking with one or the other.
Of course, I can imagine it'd take quite a bit of work to do so, so I don't have my hopes up at all.
-Recruited under Arachnos' "Equal-Opportunity Villainy" plan-
Not trying to troll here, honestly not. But having played a def on blueside and played corruptors on redside, I actually thought the corruptors were what the devs were shooting for when they made defenders. I don't understand why anyone would take a def over a corr when GR goes live, as to me, the difference in buffs didn't seem that significant. Am I completely mental in thinking this? My Kin Corr is much, MUCH more effective than my Kin Def, and I can solo with him with little or no trouble. My def... struggles.
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This was actually what -everyone- thought when city of villains first came out. Brutes were tankers/scrappers done right, dominators were blasters done right, corruptors were defenders done right, and stalkers and masterminds were the new guys.|
Originally Posted by Jack_Slade
Not trying to troll here, honestly not. But having played a def on blueside and played corruptors on redside, I actually thought the corruptors were what the devs were shooting for when they made defenders.
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In my opinion, brutes and dominators have very clear advantages over their similar heroic counterparts, but corruptors and defenders are similar to the point that they have nothing to fear from eachother. My first corruptor was actually the worst solo character I've ever had (ice/cold) meanwhile my first character and defender (storm/energy) spent half of his journey to 50 soloing. The reason for this difference is powersets and not archetype mods.
In my opinion though, defenders are better. If I could, I'd give my ice/cold corruptor defender modifiers and inherent. Most of his damage comes from procs, so my damage wouldn't take a very big hit and the more powerful defense buffs would be well worth it.
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I agree totally. While I found a /Sonic Corruptor somewhat easier than a Sonic/ Defender, it was not by much. And honestly 90% of that ease came later when I added Air Superiority and a Market bought Pistol to his attacks. If a particular Buff/Debuff set is balanced more towards teaming, however, that is as much a detriment to Corruptors as it is to Defenders, IMO. |
Originally Posted by Garent
My first corruptor was actually the worst solo character I've ever had (ice/cold) meanwhile my first character and defender (storm/energy) spent half of his journey to 50 soloing. The reason for this difference is powersets and not archetype mods.
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Likewise, I've played both a Dark/Dark Def and a Dark/Dark Corr and don't notice much difference in their soloability. I see a bit more punch when I'm low on Endurance on the Corruptor and cut out the Tar Patch, but I usually end up taking more damage. A Defender really does have significantly more survivability, but once you're at the point where you can survive a battle, you don't really notice the shift in offense over defense as much. So the feeling to me is very much the same.
I think I would much rather try to solo a buffing Corruptor than a buffing Defender, but outside of that giving Corruptors a bit more visibility once Going Rogue comes around, I don't see either disappearing completely.
You can't play a Corrupter like a backwards defender. A solo Corrupter works best when you can get larger spawns and let Scourge do part of the work for you.
I've always thought that defenders, being buff/debuff/heal and damage should be encouraged to use both halves of their nature. IE if someone uses x number of primary powers in a row, they'll have an increasing damage buff, and if they use x number of attacks in a row, they'll have a PBU-esque buff to their primary powers. But I'm nutty like that.
But I have to say, I'm relieved to see that nothing changes on these forums, even though I left for a few months. It's all the same arguements rolled into slightly new packaging every so often. People have been crying that defenders are obsolete as long as I've participated on the forums. It's no more true now than it's ever been, since in this game, you can put 8 of nearly anything together and run with it, especially now with SSK. Most people I know just take the first 7 people who are interested and run with the team as is. I can't see that changing with GR.
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Nah, no Buff/Debuff AT is weak in a large team, that's one of the reasons why they tend to have a harder time in general soloing. The devs can't make them much stronger without making the horrible steamroller that is a team of 8 force multiplers even more overpowered. |
Originally Posted by LadyMage
It's no more true now than it's ever been, since in this game, you can put 8 of nearly anything together and run with it, especially now with SSK.
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That's not really the issue, though. It's not whether or not Defenders will be wanted, it's whether or not any will be around when teams ask for them.
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I notice it when I have to plink down the last couple of things that my cones didn't destroy, and I notice it probably more because I lack scourge on the Defender than anything else. But the rest of the time I don't really notice much.
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Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
Likewise, I've played both a Dark/Dark Def and a Dark/Dark Corr and don't notice much difference in their soloability. I see a bit more punch when I'm low on Endurance on the Corruptor and cut out the Tar Patch, but I usually end up taking more damage. A Defender really does have significantly more survivability, but once you're at the point where you can survive a battle, you don't really notice the shift in offense over defense as much. So the feeling to me is very much the same.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
The term "Vigilance" is kind of silly for an AT that is constantly held and stunned. The logical change to the inherent is some kind of mez protection, perhaps a clickable that is built up like Dominate as you use your primary powers. It could retain the reduced End Use (because that's pretty minor as is, and it would provide an interesting quandary for Defenders on when to use it -- I'm low on End: should I click it now or save it in case I get mezzed?).
Dominate provides mez protection in addition to increased efficacy with control powers, so this would not be at all overpowered for Defenders.
This would essentially be a rechargeable permanent Break Free. Unlike the current Vigilance it would give something to solo Defenders, and like Dominate, it could be made to recharge more quickly on teams.
And putting this comment in bold focus:
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF