Not another word about Dim Shift and Cottage Rules
By
Arcanaville,
Posted on: 2009-08-06 22:03 in Dominators
Quote:
But that's only from people who don't understand Gravity, the people who don't love it like you do, the people who aren't allowed to have opinions on Gravity because their opinion doesn't mesh with yours.|
Originally Posted by DarkCurrent
Would they please raise their hand, then.
Everything I've seen about Dim Shift has ranged from switch it with wormhole to delete it completely and go with 8 powers in the set. |
That said, last time this ridiculousness cropped up, there was one vociferous proponent of Gravity who was aggressive and adamant about Dim Shift because it let him dismantle AV spawns.
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I vaguely remember this. I thought he was a bit silly, but clearly the guy loved his Grav, loved his Dim Shift, and wouldn't like having the phase removed one bit. The problem here is that the longer the phase lasted, the more useful it was to him... and the less useful to everyone else.|
Originally Posted by Talen_Lee
... last time this ridiculousness cropped up, there was one vociferous proponent of Gravity who was aggressive and adamant about Dim Shift because it let him dismantle AV spawns.
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Well, I'm sure some people miss the longer stun in Clobber, too.
But anyway. Within the constraint of retaining a meaningful portion of the phase property, there are still a number of additional effects Dim Shift could have. A mass mez on exit would be one; the random hostile effects is another. A DoT on affected targets would at least make the power somewhat useful for soloists.
I wonder if the technology exists to slide or condense a group of enemies toward a central point. That would certainly make Dim Shift a nice setup for Wormhole or other AoE powers, particularly if the radius was greatly increased. Phase affected targets, slide them in toward the central target for 10 seconds, then drop. It's your very own personal herder. For extra amusement, drag the Singy right into the middle...
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
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I'm all for a second of intangible with the rest of the duration either a fear effect or a sleep effect so I can slap a sweet little placate proc in the puppy.
1 sec intang with a chance of:
sleep
confuse
fear
slow/-rech
being applied
Thematically, we have no idea what they experienced in the other dimension, it may be confusing, scary, stunt their movements, or outright cause them to lie down and go to sleep 
To make it simple I'd just apply all those effects at the same time as the intang so that it doesn't need a psuedo pet. Althogh some powers have x delay built in, so never mind it should be possible to delay everything by 1 sec. In that case I'd add a chance for kd as well. I mean shifting dimensions would probably put you on your *** too.
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You are the godfather of soul too!|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I invented this game
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And those people who use Dim shift as it currently works to phase out AVs so they can take them on one at a time... what do they do?
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Originally Posted by Frosticus
1 sec intang with a chance of:
sleep confuse fear slow/-rech being applied Thematically, we have no idea what they experienced in the other dimension, it may be confusing, scary, stunt their movements, or outright cause them to lie down and go to sleep To make it simple I'd just apply all those effects at the same time as the intang so that it doesn't need a psuedo pet. Althogh some powers have x delay built in, so never mind it should be possible to delay everything by 1 sec. In that case I'd add a chance for kd as well. I mean shifting dimensions would probably put you on your *** too. |
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The good news is that Wormhole is changed to apply a 1 second stun and then a 30 second phase.
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Originally Posted by Talen_Lee
And those people who use Dim shift as it currently works to phase out AVs so they can take them on one at a time... what do they do?
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to be honest... who really cares if CP and energise are totally different powers or not, arguing about whether they are or not is going to achieve absolutely nothing because it will never be one nor the other.
and as for Dim Shift, if it changes it will change in the best intrest of the player without overpowering it, so there's no point wining about it unless your trying to let the devs know that.
Capisce?
If the affected targets are in another dimension why not have them removed until the effect wears off?
Also to me it would make sense if they came out of it confused or stunned.
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I've thought about that before, I think in the context of a hypothetical water control set. A stationary pet with a negative magnitude repel aura might do it...but more likely it would simply grant repel protection.
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Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
I wonder if the technology exists to slide or condense a group of enemies toward a central point. That would certainly make Dim Shift a nice setup for Wormhole or other AoE powers, particularly if the radius was greatly increased.
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I was testing dimension shift earlier today, the worst thing about it is the mobs affected still do attack animations and their target does response animations. For people unfamiliar with what DS does how the heck are your team mates supposed to remeber not to attack shifted foes in the heat of battle?
In the end I decided to respec it out like most people do 
Quote:
Yeah, -Repel is just repel protection. The technology for an inverse repel doesn't exist in this game, though I think it would be a worthwhile addition.
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Originally Posted by Wonderslug
I've thought about that before, I think in the context of a hypothetical water control set. A stationary pet with a negative magnitude repel aura might do it...but more likely it would simply grant repel protection.
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Quite right. I think this has come up before, I should have known better.
However, there is still a way to implement a "condenser" power. When multiple targets are teleported to a single destination, as with Assemble The Team, the result is a pile of entities which quickly spread out into a dense crowd. Suppose Dim Shift did the following:
1. All affected enemies are phased for 5 to 10 seconds.
2. All affected enemies are set to 100% transparency and capped stealth, thus "disappearing from the plane". A graphical effect is placed where the central target was indicating the "rupture in space".
3. After the phase duration, all affected enemies are teleported to the location of the targeted enemy, knocked down, and affected by random status effects.
An excellent fight opener that leaves enemies condensed in one spot indicated by the "space rupture" graphic. Place location-based effects on the rupture and rub hands together, cackling evilly...
Perhaps too much conceptual overlap with Wormhole, though.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
Quote:
Ding right on the money. And to be fair on the OP, I'm running a Grav dom on the All dom team with him and a few others. The presence of Earth and Thorny doms with their massive -def makes dimension shift problematic to use. (and I would guess this would be the case on any team that has hefty amounts of -def or maybe even +To hit). When used on this team my unslotted DS shifts the entire mob. And that mob then runs around playing out its attack and attack response animations....its all very confusing. Meaning I dropped the power as soon as I could and picked up assault. |
Originally Posted by Star_Seer
I was testing dimension shift earlier today, the worst thing about it is the mobs affected still do attack animations and their target does response animations. For people unfamiliar with what DS does how the heck are your team mates supposed to remeber not to attack shifted foes in the heat of battle?
In the end I decided to respec it out like most people do |
Now I do understand that DS has its uses in PVP and I wouldn't want it to be nerfed for those players using it. It's also not a bad bit of damage control while soloing. However its a disruptive power on teams. Something should be done with it especially with all the "making doms more popular" bruhahah that's been going on lately.
My level 50 Dominators:
Madame Mindbender 50 Mind/Energy
Fly Agaric 50 Plant/Thorn
Nate Nitro 50 Fire/Psi
Quote:
This.
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Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
1. All affected enemies are phased for 5 to 10 seconds.
2. All affected enemies are set to 100% transparency and capped stealth, thus "disappearing from the plane". A graphical effect is placed where the central target was indicating the "rupture in space". 3. After the phase duration, all affected enemies are teleported to the location of the targeted enemy, knocked down, and affected by random status effects. |
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
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Referencing the Jonestown mass suicide. Real classy. Because that's what that phrase references.|
Originally Posted by ConFlict
This reply makes no sense at all. The change he linked to has to do with a primary secondary power change only. And anyone who thinks d shift is fine for anything but pvp needs to lay off the kool aid.
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Originally Posted by DarkCurrent
Of all the gravity dominators out there, how many of you "rely" on dim shift? I'm not talking use it once in awhile. I'm talking all the time. Therefore, 'rely on it' to the point that if it were gone and replaced with a different control power like slow or fear, that you'd miss it?
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Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
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So you're the one guy who uses Dim Shift. How do you have it slotted? How often do you use it? Can you think of a different control power that would be useful in the situations you use Dim Shift?
Please buff Ice Control.
I don't like where this is headed...
It occurs to me that it would be nice if Intangibility enhancements actually did something, say, for instance, increasing the duration of Intangibility on powers that have an Intangibility effect. Then Dim Shift could have 1/2 of its current Intangibility duration, and people who really wanted a long Intangibility could slot it back up to its current performance.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
In this thread, DC continues his trend of 'Your opinion doesn't matter because it's not mine.'
The phrase 'drank the koolaid' has been corrupted over time - there's a second derivation for the phrase that people understand it to mean. While the Johnestown mass suicide is one of them, the other is that the initial distribution methods for LSD were somewhat confusing and some people thought it was being distributed in Kool-Aid. Therefore 'drank the koolaid' could be an alternative to 'are you high?'
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Originally Posted by ArcticFahx
Referencing the Jonestown mass suicide. Real classy. Because that's what that phrase references.
Of all the Leadership users out there, how many of you "rely" on veng? I'm not talking about using it once in a while. I'm talking all the time, thus "relying on it" to where you'd miss it if it were gone and replaced with a different buff power, say an AoE periodic heal like what Pain Dom has? |
For the first part see talen's reply. As for the second part, comparing a primary power to a situational power from a pool seems a bit odd. While I can say that grav is playable as is dim shift really is an eyesore. A set being workable and/or playable shouldn't mean it doesn't need looked at or adjusted.
Duel me.
I will work on my sig pic more when I have time.
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Actually, I don't have it right now on my Grav/FF, because I built him more for damage, and thus have more attacks. However, I'm trying to work out a build that fits it back in. As for what could be done to improve Grav as a set? It's one of two sets where I think there should be an order change. Swap it in order with Wormhole, let Grav get its AoE stun around when the other sets do, then give it its Intangibility (which is something unique to Grav as a control set) later, when it's more likely to have use.|
Originally Posted by DarkCurrent
So you're the one guy who uses Dim Shift. How do you have it slotted? How often do you use it? Can you think of a different control power that would be useful in the situations you use Dim Shift?
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(My other set I wish had an order change is /SR for scrappers, should have the Brute order. Getting to 35 for meaningful AoE defense sucked hard.)
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Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
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Quote:
Matthew 7:3-5.
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Originally Posted by Talen_Lee
In this thread, DC continues his trend of 'Your opinion doesn't matter because it's not mine.'
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If I quote #'s, they're from City of Data.
Global: @Kazari
It was either Taunt or Purple Triangles of Doom. I stand by my decision!
-BackAlleyBrawler
Quote:
huh?
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Originally Posted by HacknSlash
Matthew 7:3-5.
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3 "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
The basic idea is that a power must still be understandable to anyone who is currently using it. While it's usage may be changed, it doesn't end up doing something totally different.
This rule came up when I made a set of suggestions for improving Super Reflexes and Invulnerability, in particular by suggesting fundamental alterations to Evasion and Resist Energies/Resist Elements. I asked for and received permission from Castle to essentially quote this design rule: changing the purpose of a power (besides adding functionality) or altering the order of the powers in a set are changes of last resort.
People quoted me for a while, until Castle made his infamous cottage post, whereupon the rule became known as the cottage rule, where Castle essentially stated that if a power does Build Up's effects today, it should not summon a cottage tomorrow. Its an exaggeration of the rule I mention above.
Its not a silly or obscure rule. The fundamental point is that before the devs either remove functionality from a power, change the way it functions, or alter the order in which the players receive the power, it must be demonstrated to their satisfaction that (as I understand it):
a. Some change is mandatory to address an issue the devs agree is a sufficiently high priority
b. No other change that doesn't remove functionality or alter order will work
c. The change itself unambiguously addresses the problem.
Just demonstrating that suggestion A would be appreciated by more players than current power B is not sufficient to satisfy these criteria. MoG is a case of a situation satisfying the cottage rule requirements: the devs felt the issue of MoGs problematic mechanics was a sufficiently high priority to address, those issues automatically mandated a change to the power itself, and the change was designed to address the specific issues the power created. Energize is not a case of the cottage rule being applied at all, because the devs added functionality while preserving the endurance discount benefit of the original power.
The spirit of the rule applied to dimension shift states that before the devs change the power to something else completely different, it must first be demonstrated that the power itself is problematic (debatable, but at least a reasonable assertion), that the suggested change would be beneficial and resolve the problem (not difficult), and no other suggestion that preserves the intangibility aspect of the power is likely to work. The last part is the difficult hurdle, and I did suggest a possible way to address the problems of foe intangible powers without eliminating the actual foe intangibility aspect of the power for people who use it as such. So I believe its not true that all other possible solutions have been reasonably addressed.
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