Not another word about Dim Shift and Cottage Rules
It isn't designed to be soft control offered every fight.... why do we try to force it to be?
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Earth: Salt Crystals, Stalagmites
Fire: Flashfire
Ice: Ice Slick
Mind: Mass Hypnosis
Plant: Spore Burst, Seeds of Confusion
So yes, Grav has a deficit in AoE soft control which isn't resolved until 26 with Wormhole - and depending on your opinion of the power, not even then.
Furthermore, Grav could really benefit from a long-duration sleep. Three of the first four Grav powers are single target attacks with hard or soft control. Being able to sleep a group and then go through them one at a time using these attacks would be extremely useful for low-level Grav doms soloing. Later, the Singularity pet can be used to convert sleeps to holds at double the rate. A slept spawn could be partially Wormholed while leaving the rest safely out of the fight. D-Shift would be fantastically better as a sleep.
But I'm still not convinced that the intangibility effect can just be dropped. I'll be damned if I can think of a time when it's useful, but somebody probably has. Which is why I'm more comfortable with a combination phase/sleep, with the sleep effect enhanceable. Or some other thing.
@SPTrashcan
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It appears as though for soloing, small teams, and PvP, D-shift as is... is fine.
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PvP
All controls are auto-effect now, are they not, so any of them will do the job of dim shift as far as buying you a brief respite. However, even if a phase is a 'better' option its duration isn't any better than your other controls (they're all 4 sec now aren't they?) and in fact the duration of phase cannot be increased by any buff to my knowledge. Last, all attacking causes movement suppression, so even if you hit with DS you're still going to be suppressed for as long as your foe is phased. What does that really gain you that any other control wouldn't? Meanwhile, none of your teammates or faction can hit your target (like that hungry stalker who pounces on what looks like an easy meal).
Small Teams
I'm not really sure how Dim Shift benefits small teams more than large teams that are steamrolling. If you're suggesting it'd be superior than other controls that you would replace it with (fear, sleep, confuse, stun, hold), I really don't see how. How is having your foes suddenly be untouchable better to them falling asleep, becoming afraid, getting confused, being stunned or held? Sure they can't hit you, but how long does it take your team of 3-4 to realize they're wasting endurance? Or are you expecting them to read your clever popup message that says "$target and friends have been phase shifted. Do not attack for 30 seconds". Again, how is that better/easier on a small team than just sleeping, confusing, holding, stunning, fearing the targets?
Soloing
How is a phase better than a sleep (or any other control) for soloing? If I sleep an entire spawn, I can MORE easily survive, kill them, skip them, or whatever than if they were phased. I don't have to wait 30 seconds to do anything to them if I don't want to. I can shoot em, apply another control, run past them, run away from them, or whatever I want. Meanwhile, phased targets still attack, and you can still attack them... just nobody hits anyone. It's a pita to figure out what the heck's going on.
Again, I'm not saying you're wrong and that DS can't be used in the scenarios you provided. But I am saying that if I replaced the phase even with something as weak as a mass sleep, I could get the same or better effect.
Please buff Ice Control.
It doesn't really make sense for Dimension Shift to be aggroless. If I'm standing at a party chatting with my friends, and half of them suddenly fade away into nothingness, I'm going to look around for who did that. Or at least run for the nearest exit.
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Anything can be explained in comics, so let's not let reality stand in the way. Plus, just by its virtue, it'd give Grav a niche power like Mind for dealing with AVs/EBs. In fact, I'd like to see the other sleeps (Ice and Plant) also aggroless. Or if that can't be done, then make them all aggro. Why is mind so special? It's not like it has a control deficit.
Please buff Ice Control.
Well sure. But isn't the same true of Mind's Mass Hypnosis? You're standing there and suddenly all your buddies around you just fall asleep standing up? I'd be thinking someone is pumping sleep gas into the room or someone is f'ing with their minds.
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Mass Confusion is even easier. Maybe you are concerned about what made your friend suddenly turn around and attack you, but your attention is a little distracted by having to deal with your friend that suddenly turned around and attacked you. And unlike Seeds of Confusion, you don't have a visual indication of where the attack came from.
In general, though, I'd say Mind's ability to use its control powers without alerting the targets is a function of the Mind Control Set, not the Sleep or Confusion status effects in general.
And there's still the possibility that with Gravity you know where the attack came from, but can't do anything about it because there is this wavering field of distorted space between you and the attacker.
Because by that level, every other Dom set does have soft AoE control available at least every other fight.
Earth: Salt Crystals, Stalagmites Fire: Flashfire Ice: Ice Slick Mind: Mass Hypnosis Plant: Spore Burst, Seeds of Confusion So yes, Grav has a deficit in AoE soft control which isn't resolved until 26 with Wormhole - and depending on your opinion of the power, not even then. |
I do no think this was an "Ooops!" moment in which the devs just forgot to add AoE soft control to Gravity/. I think it's a mistake to approach the use of D-Shift in the same way you would any of the soft control AoEs you mentioned. When I want those types of controls... I roll the sets that have them in it.
"Situational power? Sure. Although in a sense... all powers are situational. It's just that some situations occur more than others." Understand the situation needed in order for the power to be most effective... and make that situation happen.
I'm not going to debate your points because to a degree you're right, but I do think you should consider these counters:
PvP All controls are auto-effect now, are they not, so any of them will do the job of dim shift as far as buying you a brief respite. However, even if a phase is a 'better' option its duration isn't any better than your other controls (they're all 4 sec now aren't they?) and in fact the duration of phase cannot be increased by any buff to my knowledge. Last, all attacking causes movement suppression, so even if you hit with DS you're still going to be suppressed for as long as your foe is phased. What does that really gain you that any other control wouldn't? Meanwhile, none of your teammates or faction can hit your target (like that hungry stalker who pounces on what looks like an easy meal). Small Teams I'm not really sure how Dim Shift benefits small teams more than large teams that are steamrolling. If you're suggesting it'd be superior than other controls that you would replace it with (fear, sleep, confuse, stun, hold), I really don't see how. How is having your foes suddenly be untouchable better to them falling asleep, becoming afraid, getting confused, being stunned or held? Sure they can't hit you, but how long does it take your team of 3-4 to realize they're wasting endurance? Or are you expecting them to read your clever popup message that says "$target and friends have been phase shifted. Do not attack for 30 seconds". Again, how is that better/easier on a small team than just sleeping, confusing, holding, stunning, fearing the targets? Soloing How is a phase better than a sleep (or any other control) for soloing? If I sleep an entire spawn, I can MORE easily survive, kill them, skip them, or whatever than if they were phased. I don't have to wait 30 seconds to do anything to them if I don't want to. I can shoot em, apply another control, run past them, run away from them, or whatever I want. Meanwhile, phased targets still attack, and you can still attack them... just nobody hits anyone. It's a pita to figure out what the heck's going on. Again, I'm not saying you're wrong and that DS can't be used in the scenarios you provided. But I am saying that if I replaced the phase even with something as weak as a mass sleep, I could get the same or better effect. |
I don't see it as a better effect. I see it as a different effect. You don't come across many AoE control powers that allow you to increase the Mag. There's only one. AFAIK there is no such thing as phase/intangible resist either.
In PvP the fixed duration and absence of intang resists means that D-shift will offer reliable control for a solid 4 seconds against other players, bosses, EBs, and AVs in one application. You cannot replace "D-shift" in that sentence with any other power in the game. IMO it is best used on people you want out of the fight, so that your team can defeat their target. (The Emp/, the Spine/ scrapper that's locked onto your support, the Blaster that just popped Aim/BU above you, etc...)
As far as small teaming and soloing goes, you are right to a certain extent. Again however I think you are using the term "better" when I've never tried to make a case of D-shift being better than but different than, and very effective in doing what it is designed to do. Part of the beauty and fun of this game is that there are many, many ways to go about acheiveing the same goal. The simple fact that you cannot defeat a foe that has been affected by D-shift tells us that it's purpose is to stop the fght, not speed it up. Sleeps are similar in that their effect is void if you continue to attack. So, there you have it... same basic purpose built into the design both powers... sleeps can be broken, D-shift cannot. This doesn't make a sleep effect better imo. I prefer to use my "oh snap lemme save everyone from dying" power responsibly and know that it will work, rather than to use my "oh snap lemme save everyone from dying" power and then have to depend on my teammates to make it work. (by not attacking)
"Situational power? Sure. Although in a sense... all powers are situational. It's just that some situations occur more than others." Understand the situation needed in order for the power to be most effective... and make that situation happen.
So you're stating that out of 6 control sets, only one offers something different than the the norm... you're saying that because it's not like the other sets... we should try to play it like other sets play and expect the same results?
I do no think this was an "Ooops!" moment in which the devs just forgot to add AoE soft control to Gravity/. I think it's a mistake to approach the use of D-Shift in the same way you would any of the soft control AoEs you mentioned. When I want those types of controls... I roll the sets that have them in it. |
It's true that when people want early soft control, they roll something other than Grav. What is it about Grav that would make someone want to choose not to have early soft control? What is the utility of Dimension Shift that balances the utility of these other powers?
(Incidentally, the history of power design in this game in general and with respect to Grav in particular leads me to believe that the devs have had several "oops" moments...)
@SPTrashcan
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(Incidentally, the history of power design in this game in general and with respect to Grav in particular leads me to believe that the devs have had several "oops" moments...)
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For instance: "What would be really cool in a Mind Control set?" "Oh, I know, you can pick up people with your mind and fly them around!" So, Telekinesis, a power that allows you to grant Fly on other people -- who then fall out of the sky when they get out of range from you. Oh, and you can't fly, too, unless you take that power.
Or: "What would be really cool in a Gravity Control set?" "Oh, I know, you can warp space to bring all your allies in the team directly to you!" "What about a pet?" "What pet, you can't make a pet out of gravity."
Because there's no way to boost intang duration, it will only ever have a 4 sec duration in PvP.
Meanwhile, sure the other control powers' durations can be resisted. But that sword cuts both ways. Unless I misunderstand the PvP mechanic (can you blame anyone?) all other controls can have their 4 sec base duration boosted either by slotting, powerboost, IO set bonuses, or Megalomaniac accolade. So it's quite possible to get longer than 4 seconds.
The rest of your argument centers around being different. Uniqueness is great, but what about utility? Is DS good at what it does? Sure. Is it one of just a few powers that does what it does? Sure.
But how useful is it?
Please buff Ice Control.
... To convince me otherwise, you'd have to show me something useful that Grav can do at that level and the other sets can't - or at least point to something that Grav gets later that makes this early deficit worthwhile.
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I can try to convince you by pointing out that at level 12, a Grav/ dom with D-shift slotted with just one intangible enhancement can take multiple bosses comlpletly out of a fight for 30 seconds... It's a fixed duration sure, but it's a longer base than any other AoE mez. (I'm almost certain someone will try to convince me that 8 man teams of level 12-16 players never have "oh crap" moments)
Gravity gets a pet that holds, immobilizes, repels, and lifts to make up for it's lack of AoE soft control. Singularity makes it worthwhile.
... What is the utility of Dimension Shift that balances the utility of these other powers?
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I think the balance you are looking to find is quite plain: Mag-enhanceable, set duration, and No resist/protection from the effect. Simply put, it's consistent and reliable in a way other powers offered at that level are not. It's use is not required as much, but when the power is needed... it rarely if ever fails to do what you needed it to do... regardless of your opponent type, and regardless of your teammates actions after using it. This IMO begs for better education and practice in using it. A situational power is not a bad power. It's a power that requires more thought than non-situational powers simply because one must know what situations to use it for and one must be able to recognize when those situations occur.
If someone remains whiffing at a shifted foe(s)... it probably wasn't used right.
If a teammate is waiting for the effect to wear off more than about 5 secs ... it probably wasn't used right.
If a team bind wasn't attached and spammed at the beginning and/or end of it's duration... it probably wasn't used right
If the situation it's casts in doesn't require AT LEAST 30 seconds... it probably wasn't used right.
If teammates remain enegaged and have to try to distinguish which foes are shifted from those that are not... it probably wasn't used right.
The truth is, that the type of teams and teammates that would never run into situations that truly do require the use of D-Shift... are the same teams and teammates that could also make due without soft control. The teams and teammates that would run to situations that require the use of D-shift are the teams and teammates that will probably require it's use more than a couple times.
"Situational power? Sure. Although in a sense... all powers are situational. It's just that some situations occur more than others." Understand the situation needed in order for the power to be most effective... and make that situation happen.
Everything you said highlights the situational use of Dimension Shift and the exact reasons it should NOT be the only AoE control available in the early game.
I'll ask point blank, Dahjee, when would you use Dim Shift other than 'oh crap' time? Do you open a fight with it? Do you use it to speed up your team's progress? Does it get used mid-fight? Does it stack with other controls you have?
Compare it to all the other control sets. By lvl 12, all of them have an MULTI-situational bread-and-butter AoE mezz available. And I can answer yes to each of my above questions.
And don't take this as grav bashing. I enjoy the set and think it's the equivalent of the others by the late 20s. I just don't understand why it has to be special at having no AoE control until GDF, which with its super long recharge makes it available every other fight... maybe.
Please buff Ice Control.
A situational power is not a bad power. It's a power that requires more thought than non-situational powers simply because one must know what situations to use it for and one must be able to recognize when those situations occur.
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If someone remains whiffing at a shifted foe(s)... it probably wasn't used right.
If a teammate is waiting for the effect to wear off more than about 5 secs ... it probably wasn't used right. If a team bind wasn't attached and spammed at the beginning and/or end of it's duration... it probably wasn't used right If the situation it's casts in doesn't require AT LEAST 30 seconds... it probably wasn't used right. If teammates remain enegaged and have to try to distinguish which foes are shifted from those that are not... it probably wasn't used right. |
Given the list in that second quote, I reckon that Dimension Shift cleared "situational" and pushed far enough into "bad" that it's threatening to head into "Transformers 2".
Simply put, a situational power that is too narrow is indeed bad. Look at the old Temperature Protection in Fiery Aura for instance.
Dimension shift is a great power. L2P with it and such.
I"M IN YOUR AE: D SHIFTING YOUR BOSS FARMS FOR LULZ
In some ways, it almost seems like the worst part of D Shift is that it's AOE. Being able to point at one guy and remove him from the equation is one thing but it seems problematic when you catch a group since you can't pick and choose that you want this enemy shifted and this enemy not shifted. I like the concept of shortening the length of time for the intangible slightly but overlapping it with a sleep effect.
I have one question: Do intangible enemies count towards the target cap for AOEs? If they do, one possible remedy is for AOEs to not add intangible enemies to the target cap so that you can shift part of a group, kill everything else effectively, then be ready for the shifted enemies to return to normal space.
Simply put, a situational power that is too narrow is indeed bad. Look at the old Temperature Protection in Fiery Aura for instance.
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If this rare situation occurs only on the brink of a team wipe, and D-shift is effectively used to prevent debt... then what does one say about powers that are only effective after someone has fallen. Self Rezzes, ally rezzes, vengence, buffs and debuffs that benefit from a fallen allly? Are these bad powers? Are powers that we use to recover from debt/death more useful than powers used to prevent debt/death?
BTW I'm not familiar with Fiery Aura, nor any changes that it may have suffered/benefited from.
I have attempted to make no arguement that says D-Shift is some terrific power that is better than all or any. It is indeed best used as an "oh crap" button on large teams in PvE... I personally feel it is the best "oh crap" power out there in terms of crowd control, but that's just my opinion. I wouldn't be upset if it got a buff, but I haven't been convinced it needs one. Perhaps it is because in-game, my experiences have included times that I have faceplanted next to Grav/doms who complained about gravity's lack of early AoE control while also choosing to skip dimension shift, and here on the forums, those who often speak on changing the power rarely share comments that speak of using D-Shift to prevent a team or teammate from dying, or saving a mission because agrro was preventing the glowie from being clicked and the timer was at <10 seconds. (true story)
I don't beleive usefulness has been reduced to a simple definition of "Will it kill them faster?" When **** happens, it usually finds it way to the fan. When those times happen, the definition of usefulness changes.
PS. This was not a direct reply to you MinMin, but a general reply and perhaps an exit out this thread. I'd be happy to share my thoughts on D-shift's usefulness and best uses in PvP, solo, and small teams DC... but I' think I'll save them for genuine questions and threads concerning the matter.
"Situational power? Sure. Although in a sense... all powers are situational. It's just that some situations occur more than others." Understand the situation needed in order for the power to be most effective... and make that situation happen.
Sorry to dig up an "old" thread but the topic has really been weighing heavily on my mind. I'm seriously thinking that the below idea might be the best solution.
How about this? Alter the effect of Intangible so it has the current effect, but if you hit an effected foe with another status effect it breaks, like Sleep. The attack must be a status effect, though, normal damage has no effect, and further the attack must be a single target attack, an AoE will have no effect either. So you have to target that foe directly, and won't "awaken" foes accidently with an AoE.
My original thought was knockback to break the effect, since Gravity could use either Propel or Lift to knock foes out of the Dimension Shift, and Force Field could use Force Bolt to break Detention Shield. Sonic doesn't have a single target knockback, though. If we just make it a status effect in general, the Sonic Def or Corr could use Screech from Sonic Attack, or any other status affect power from their other set, while Controllers would pretty much be able to break it with any of their Primaries. |
I would submit that the real problem with Gravity Control, for Doms anyway, is not DS, but Lift and Propel. Two single target soft (very soft) controls whose primary function is dealing damage may have a point for Controllers. For Dominators, who get an entire secondary devoted to dealing damage, they seem a waste.
As for Dimension Shift and the Cottage Rule, the first rule of changing things needs to be "Once you've decided that something is broken, fix it." Now, maybe the devs think that DS is fine, or at least OK. Maybe they think that Gravity Control is fine, or at least OK. But if not, they need to fix it, and the structure of the set pretty much demands that if it's broken, one or more of Lift, Propel, and Dimension Shift needs to be changed to a more generally useful form of control. Which means, sadly, that the cottage rule needs to go out the window, since there's no way they'll justify making Lift into an AoE knockup field at its current spot in the set, and neither Propel nor Dimension Shift can be twisted into something generally useful to fix Gravity's shortcomings without making a complete mockery of the Cottage Rule.
Not like it would be the first time - Gravity Control itself provides an example of flagrantly disregarding the Cottage Rule. And I don't think anybody much misses the ability to teleport your entire team to you that the set gave up to get Singularity.
TEH WERDZ ON SKREEN HURTZ MI BRANE!
If DS were single target, like sonic cage..we wouldn't be having this discussion. Sonic Cage is useful, because you can target a troublesome foe and take her/him out of the fight for a bit. DS has caused me frustration, mostly because its a bit random..I'm never sure if I'm going to roll snake eyes and miss everyone or get lucky and take out an entire mob. On a team with lots of -DEF or +To Hit its actually troublesome to use..as it can phase out an entire mob.
After playing a few Grav toons I have a few ideas on different ways DS could work:
1. Make it a Single Target control, much like S.C.
2. Make it an Ally buff..I.E you can phase shift yourself and your team mates.
3. Add a Stun (or fear) component, so mobs are slightly disoriented after coming back to reality.
I'd be happy with any one of these....
My level 50 Dominators:
Madame Mindbender 50 Mind/Energy
Fly Agaric 50 Plant/Thorn
Nate Nitro 50 Fire/Psi
Isn't it obvious, people!? This power, and the gravity set itself, should be taking advantage of that new "phased can attack phased" feature in some way! I mean, it's there! They put it in the game for a reason. So why not use it?
The power should somehow work by shifting you and your team as well as certain foes. Besides my previous suggestion, how about this:
Dimension Shift (Single Target Foe Phase, PBAoE ally phase toggle). How to use it? "Okay, team. We're all going to rush that boss. Gather."
*dom/troller targets boss and activates Dimension Shift*
*team and boss phase*
*everybody beats down the boss*
*dom/troller deactivates Dimension Shift*
*spawn is slaughtered without the help of their boss*
Now even if it weren't a toggle and a click instead, you can do the same thing but with a time limit.
I keep suggesting this because, as is, the "phase attack phase" feature won't ever be used except by the people that take Phase Shift (and who ever takes that?) and facing foes that will phase (either a buff set or control set with a shift power...and who ever takes those?) from the stealth pool. It's such a cool feature too!! WHY!?
PS: Last suggestion, make dimension shift do exactly what it does now except add that it phases *only* the caster as well and debuffs the foe's accuracy and/or damage (or buffs the caster's defense and/or resists) for its duration. At least then, gravity control would be a potent solo'er because you can phase shift half a spawn and go about controlling/beating them down in higher safety.
The "phased can attack phased" was imo added because the pvp community asked for it for a long time. It can be a neat thing there. In pve it has very limited application as the enemies that use phase themselves are very short in numbers and the use of player generated enemy phases is also exceedingly low.
*I don't even know if it would actually work on those dudes with the shield that goes up, and carnies phase in and out so fast that the 90 second "no phase" imposed on players makes it pretty suboptimal.
It could be a cool game mechanic, it just isn't.
'It just isn't' only because at the moment, it's of rare use. That's why I'm suggesting to make it more wide spread. I'd like foes to use more phase powers on us. I'd like foes to use more phase on themselves and I'd like more use out of our phase abilities.
It's a mechanic that exist in the game but is of limited or suboptimal use. That, IMO, needs to change. Heck, they could add whole new mechanics to using phase that could make 'phase battles' a possible strategy. Like if you're phase by an enemy's power you get phased with a debuff but if you phase under your own power, you get a self buff.
I'd rather they not change a power just because no one likes using it. I'd rather they add to the game so that choosing such powers is a viable alternative to other powers.
From what I've read so far...
It appears as though for soloing, small teams, and PvP, D-shift as is... is fine. However, large teams that do nothing but steamroll mob after mob with little to no downtime... the power somehow becomes a sucky power? I would argue that many, many powers become useless on such teams without being considered a sucky power.
It seems to me that the power, even on large teams still offers some of the best insurance against team wipes... Many of the complaints I see point to misuse of D-shift on large teams and/or lack of communication by the caster. Most of the suggestions I see to "fix" the power would only encourage this misuse.
It isn't designed to be soft control offered every fight.... why do we try to force it to be?
"Situational power? Sure. Although in a sense... all powers are situational. It's just that some situations occur more than others." Understand the situation needed in order for the power to be most effective... and make that situation happen.