So what build is the most powerful for tanks.
By
Ahmon,
Posted on: 2009-08-04 17:26 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
What do you mean by most powerful? Most powerful means a lot of different things to a lot of different people.
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
What type of Tank can deal out alot of damage and hold his own against EB's? Not to mention one that isn't an inspiration poping nightmare.
A tank will really not be able to compare in damage to a scrapper. That said, I would *Highly* recommend firey aura. It is a damage set, so it's defenses aren't on the top of the chain, but as a tanker, you're already going to have high defenses and high hp. The self heal in that set is fantastic too.
Alternatively, Shield defense has Against All Odds, which will up your damage output a good amount.
As for damage secondary, Super Strength is up there. So is fire melee. Don't expect to out-damage any scrappers or blasters, but those two will help.
Quote:
That's generally not the standard for which tanks are measured. Maybe you should try a scrapper?|
Originally Posted by Bringer_of_Pain
What type of Tank can deal out alot of damage and hold his own against EB's? Not to mention one that isn't an inspiration poping nightmare.
|
Most tanks are usually more happy in being able to take the most aggro or surviving against a lot of incoming damage. Doing damage is important, but not predominant to many team oriented tanks.
A well built tank wouldn't be popping inspirations against a *mere* EB.
Softcap the defense on your INVSS and nothing will stop you.
If you are looking for a ton of damage from a tank, you are looking at the wrong AT. I would suggest a scrapper or a brute on the Redside (Villians). Tanks are designed to be AT's that TAKE a lot of damage, manage aggro, and help control the battlefield but keeping the fire concentrated on the tank because they can take it better than anyone else on the team.
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
SD/DM is very powerful in single target damage
Fire/Fire is very powerful in AoE damage
Stone/DM is very powerful in staying power
Quote:
Guessing this is for solo play...EM/WP is quite good against EB's and can solo quite well. In fact, just about anything/WP is probably more than adequate against EB's. My experience extends to EM/WP(before and after the nerfs) and Stone/WP Brute...both of which were easy to solo...1-50.|
Originally Posted by Bringer_of_Pain
What type of Tank can deal out alot of damage and hold his own against EB's? Not to mention one that isn't an inspiration poping nightmare.
|
Edit: If by some small chance this is for team play, you are asking the wrong questions.
Quote:
even if he's talking team play, WP is more than adequate.
|
Originally Posted by Ignatz
Guessing this is for solo play...EM/WP is quite good against EB's and can solo quite well. In fact, just about anything/WP is probably more than adequate against EB's. My experience extends to EM/WP(before and after the nerfs) and Stone/WP Brute...both of which were easy to solo...1-50.
Edit: If by some small chance this is for team play, you are asking the wrong questions. |
No
Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo
I think you underestimate our fools, sir.
Why /duel is a bad idea
If you want to DEAL a lot of dmg, especially to AV's and hold your own...we're talking single target here...I'd recommend NRG/NRG. Have that on my brute. Against 15 or so mobs, I will die usually to streakbreaker, but vs and AV....I can go toe to toe usually.
Tourettes
That's not debt, those are my "fury bonus points"--Stahlkopf
MOST amazing Brute engineer goes to: Ultrawatt. His SS/Fire farm build is SMASH!
Congrats to Black Assassin! Won 100,000,000 INF for building most survivable NRG/NRG Blaster
You'll be disappointed damage-wise going from a brute to a tank.
A scrapper is your best translation of a brute on the hero side.
I think the number 1 scrapper build (Assumptions: Focus on single target with unlimited funds) is DM/SD.
BUt the truth is, in PvE...Any scrapper will do. I have a level 20 MA/SR and all he has is a few partially outleveled ACC and END reduction Dual Origin enhancments (Some slots are even stil empty) he is mauling over everything. Took out a red eb Dr Valhizok (sp?) the other day. Mobs are really just an end drain to me right now.
I have a WP/SS tank, and a mace/shield tank. Recently (during an ITF run), I saw a SS/Invul tank handle... well. I think I counted nine separate EBs whaling away on him. Inspired me to look at my tanks again, and consider getting one up there. Will WP/SS survive as well as a SS/Invul? (the SS/Invul did not have any IOs, fyi).
Explorer: 93%. Achiever: 40%. Socializer: 40%. Killer 33%.
Current Heroes and Villains (altitis holding at 50 currents)
To all the devs, past, present, (and may there be) future: /salute
To NCSoft: Understand that you reap what you plant, and you cannot gain what you throw away.
OK, so I'm not nuts. Tanks cannot dishout what my lvl50 Brute can do. I was wondering because around lvl 30 on my Brute i was like man i need to up the Diff big time. But i must say that this Brute can take a massive amount of damage. The real big bite in the butt is i missed double exp weekend. Well...I think to make a scrapper I go. And thanks to everyone that posted a reply.
It's easy to check one tank's build, see them handle a TON of aggro, then declare that tank type to be "more superior". BUT.... one doesn't realize is how IO'd or Purpled out that tank may be. As far as just plain SO's, stone wins out. But as far as damage output, you got me on that one. ;-)
Quote:
No tanker combination is going to output the damage that a Brute will, that's not the purpose of the AT. Scrappers are the high damage/good survivability melee AT on heroside.|
Originally Posted by Bringer_of_Pain
OK, so I'm not nuts. Tanks cannot dishout what my lvl50 Brute can do. I was wondering because around lvl 30 on my Brute i was like man i need to up the Diff big time. But i must say that this Brute can take a massive amount of damage. The real big bite in the butt is i missed double exp weekend. Well...I think to make a scrapper I go. And thanks to everyone that posted a reply.
|
That said, your Inv/SS tanker can do decent damage and if built right it will survive things that would turn your brute into a grease spot. The tanker's purpose is first to SURVIVE damage and manage the aggro of an entire spawn of mobs; dealing damage is, frankly, secondary. Not to say they don't do good damage, but they're never going to deal the kind of damage a Brute will. That's fair since a Brute isn't going to survive the same amount of incoming damage without outside buffs.
For raw damage output a Tanker won't ever reach Scrapper or Brute levels, given equivalent enhancement and buffs. Conversely a Scrapper or Brute won't reach the survivability levels of a well built tanker, also given equivalent enhancement and buffs.
If you'd like some ideas for your Invuln tanker you may want to check out the guides linked in my signature, if you decide to follow my Soft Capped defense build you'll find there's very little in the game that will threaten you.
For a Scrapper there's really no combination that's bad; some are, of course, better than others. I've played 3 Scrappers to 50, a BS/Regen, Spine/Regen and BS/Shield. Of the three the BS/Shield is my favorite and is by a good bit the most survivable late game; the BS/Regen is better in the early/mid game however. I've found that the BS/Shield is capable of dropping an 8 man spawn of +2 mobs in about 5 seconds though... jump into melee and let AAO saturate, then hit Build up and Shield Charge/Whirling Sword. Headsplitter/Disembowel on any boss or LT that may have survived and on to the next.
I personally really enjoy all the hero AT's and play them all. My favorites are Tankers followed by Scrappers; I've more of them at 50 than anything else although I'm getting close with Controllers with 2 at 50 and one in the low 40's.
If you want massive damage output nothing can top a mature Controller, particularly Fire/*. A team of several Fire/Rad controllers has to be seen to be believed with the absolute carnage they can wreak. The playstyle is completely different from a melee AT of course.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
Quote:
You can tell almost exactly how well IO'd someone is out if you're on their faction.
|
Originally Posted by Iscilla
It's easy to check one tank's build, see them handle a TON of aggro, then declare that tank type to be "more superior". BUT.... one doesn't realize is how IO'd or Purpled out that tank may be. As far as just plain SO's, stone wins out. But as far as damage output, you got me on that one. ;-)
|
Quote:
I agree with everything you've posted but this. A Scrapper may not be able to reach it since its HP cap and Resist cap is lower but a Brute OTOH will. A Brute has the same caps as a Tanker and will be just as durable with outside buffs. The only tradeoff is Brutes by themselves will do more dmg since they have a higher dmg cap while Tankers will survive more by themselves due to initially higher HP, Resist and Defense. With both equally buffed the Brute will be better offensively and with equal survivability but will never be able to manage aggro like a Tanker any day of the week.
|
Originally Posted by Call_Me_Awesome
Conversely a Scrapper or Brute won't reach the survivability levels of a well built tanker, also given equivalent enhancement and buffs.
|
Elec/Cold Troller AV/Pylon/GM/TF/SF Soloing Antics
everytime...he gets me everytime.... DAMN U BOOMIE
-- _Ilr_
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
Quote:
With just SOs, I would recommend willpower or stone. If you plan to IO out your build, then invulnerability is the way to go.|
Originally Posted by Bringer_of_Pain
I have a lvl 50 Brute (SS/WP) that just owns everything that I come in contact with. I'm trying a couple different Tank builds right now (DA/BS, Inv/SS). I am looking for a PvE build or build advice. The tank's are both lvl 34ish now and before I get to far into them I figured I'd ask the question of what build own's it over here. I'd even be open to a scrapper if the build is right and not squishy. Any advice would be appreciated.
|
An invuln tank well-built with IO sets is the strongest and most versatile tank out there. Without IOs, the invuln tank is in the middle of the pack, at best.
I don't know much about fire tanks, except that their health tends to yo-yo a lot. I once saw a good ice tank. And I haven't yet had the opportunity to see a good a DA or shield tank in action.
Goldbrick 50 inv/ss tank
Other 50s: Power Beam, Rocky Mantle, STORMIE Agent, Matchless, Major Will, Knightmayor, Femstone, Space Maureen, Crimebuster Ako, Dr. Twilight, Doc Champion, American Gold Eagle
Quote:
I mostly agree with this. Though Ice Tankers can be really great, as they have the best aggro management amongst Tanker primaries (Dark as well, if you want to spend the endurance). Ice lets you not worry about endurance in the mid-to-end game, as well as soft-capping all your defensive types.|
Originally Posted by Goldbrick
With just SOs, I would recommend willpower or stone. If you plan to IO out your build, then invulnerability is the way to go.
An invuln tank well-built with IO sets is the strongest and most versatile tank out there. Without IOs, the invuln tank is in the middle of the pack, at best. I don't know much about fire tanks, except that their health tends to yo-yo a lot. I once saw a good ice tank. And I haven't yet had the opportunity to see a good a DA or shield tank in action. |
I haven't had any experience with Dark, other than watching one mid-level Tanker. He did pretty well, though. Endurance can be an issue pre-IOs, but that's nothing new to most Tankers.
I have an SD/SS Tanker that I love. She's soft-capped rather cheaply, and ridiculously survivable. Also gets AAO's damage boost, so she's a good all-arounder. I'm actually more anxious to make an SD/ElM Tanker than I am about the colour/animation customisation!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Goldbrick
With just SOs, I would recommend willpower or stone. If you plan to IO out your build, then invulnerability is the way to go.
An invuln tank well-built with IO sets is the strongest and most versatile tank out there. Without IOs, the invuln tank is in the middle of the pack, at best. I don't know much about fire tanks, except that their health tends to yo-yo a lot. I once saw a good ice tank. And I haven't yet had the opportunity to see a good a DA or shield tank in action. |
DA and Shield are at two opposite ends of the spectrum.
A DA can hold agro with the best of them, the only set I've seen that is better at it is a well-played Ice tank. The downside to that is you don't have the survivability of some of the other tank sets. You will still outlive any other AT, but other tanks will outlive you.
A Shield tank on the other hand, if built right, will outlive all but the most beastly of the other sets, Stone in granite and Invuln with fully saturate Invincibility are the only ones that I have seen outlive a well built Shield tank. Shield tanks have above average survivability and can put out more damage than just about any other, but they sacrifice agro control to achieve it. AAO, Shield's taunt aura is very possibly the worst one available to tanks. RttC would be a close second if they haven't buffed it.
With a tank, you give up damage for survivability. That even holds true between different powersets within the AT. NOTHING will outlive a Stone/Ice, but almost everything will outdamage it. A Fire/SS will out damage most others, but is one of the squishier tanks.
I have a couple Shield tanks myself, a Shield/DM, and a Shield/SS. I prefer to play the role of backup or "off-tank" if there is another tank on the team better suited to agro control. I tank best on teams with extremely high damage output. That is because with more damage being dealt I don't have to worry so much about my relatively lesser agro control ability. I only need to keep their attention long enough for the death to start raining down and everything is usually dead before it is a threat to the rest of the team.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Quote:
How do you figure that? It has the same duration / strength as Invincibility:|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Shield tanks have above average survivability and can put out more damage than just about any other, but they sacrifice agro control to achieve it. AAO, Shield's taunt aura is very possibly the worst one available to tanks. RttC would be a close second if they haven't buffed it.
|
Invincibility:
Quote:
Target:
|
Quote:
Target:
|
Quote:
Target:
|
Quote:
I have no idea what you mean by AAO being a weak taunt aura, and Sarrate already beat me to it (with numbers!), but you also have to consider that it also provides 7% -dmg to enemies (Tanker), which basically is equivalent to +res for you against enemies in melee.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
A Shield tank on the other hand, if built right, will outlive all but the most beastly of the other sets, Stone in granite and Invuln with fully saturate Invincibility are the only ones that I have seen outlive a well built Shield tank. Shield tanks have above average survivability and can put out more damage than just about any other, but they sacrifice agro control to achieve it. AAO, Shield's taunt aura is very possibly the worst one available to tanks. RttC would be a close second if they haven't buffed it.
|
IIRC, -dmg is one of those rare things not resisted by AVs, even with the purple patch. As it is basically equivalent to melee-only res, it can also be considered to be (positional) res that is also not debuffable. Not bad, really, considering it's trivial for a Tanker to soft cap the defences already.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Bringer_of_Pain
I have a lvl 50 Brute (SS/WP) that just owns everything that I come in contact with. I'm trying a couple different Tank builds right now (DA/BS, Inv/SS). I am looking for a PvE build or build advice. The tank's are both lvl 34ish now and before I get to far into them I figured I'd ask the question of what build own's it over here. I'd even be open to a scrapper if the build is right and not squishy. Any advice would be appreciated.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Bringer_of_Pain
What type of Tank can deal out alot of damage and hold his own against EB's? Not to mention one that isn't an inspiration poping nightmare.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Bringer_of_Pain
OK, so I'm not nuts. Tanks cannot dishout what my lvl50 Brute can do. I was wondering because around lvl 30 on my Brute i was like man i need to up the Diff big time. But i must say that this Brute can take a massive amount of damage. The real big bite in the butt is i missed double exp weekend. Well...I think to make a scrapper I go. And thanks to everyone that posted a reply.
|
As to what scrapper to make, that's open to debate. People have different preferences as to focusing on single target vs. AoE, and whether damage mitigation in the primary is important. Same tradeoffs in secondaries. I have an SR scrapper that is softcapped in defense and thus has incredible survivability. But I have a Fiery Aura scrapper that puts out more damage due to Fire's damage aura and Burn. So you still have decisions to make, but it was absolutely the right move for you to go from Tank to Scrapper in terms of what you're looking for.
Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
AAO originally only had a RttC-level taunt built into it. Don't remember when this was changed, but it was some time ago. (EDIT: Can't find it in patch notes, so may have happened during I13 beta.)
Victory: @Brimstone Bruce
Brimstone Bruce (lvl50 Stone/Fire Tanker) Broadside Bruce (lvl50 Shield/WM Tanker)
Ultionis (lvl50 Dark/Dark Defender) Cortex Crusher (lvl50 Mind/Kin Controller)
Patronox (lvl50 Kat/Dark Scrapper) Harbinger Mk.7 (lvl50 Bots/FF MM)
NightShift for Life.
I have a lvl 50 Brute (SS/WP) that just owns everything that I come in contact with. I'm trying a couple different Tank builds right now (DA/BS, Inv/SS). I am looking for a PvE build or build advice. The tank's are both lvl 34ish now and before I get to far into them I figured I'd ask the question of what build own's it over here. I'd even be open to a scrapper if the build is right and not squishy. Any advice would be appreciated.