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Like I said before. You dont have to be physically different or have a sexual orefence other than hetrosexual. We all likely know different cultures or ethinc origins are another even accents. People can and will point at anything they consider not like them or their ideal of norm. And what it boils down to is no ones pain is below anyone elses. It could be argued severity can be contested. I would argue this is more likely more down to being more widespread and widely known. Ask any kid who has been severely beaten at school because the kids simply didnt like them. Is that not as bad as "gay bashing"?|
Originally Posted by FloatingFatMan
Oh, I'm positive he meant that too. I know Poppy.
 Still, BOTH groups are subject to some pretty unpleasant bigotry, yet I've never had anyone stand up for ME and tell the bigots to shut it, quite the opposite in fact (not that I personally need it, you understand). I just think it's really really sad that one group is oft defended, and another is oft ridiculed. |
Alot of biogotry is down to certain peoples need to take out thoer unhappiness on others. And so really bigotry may take place in many forms but it is the same train of thinking or beleifs.
@Spectral_Weaver
I don't think that's correct (IMO). Time has taught the world that we are stronger together. Taking the stitches out isn't going to help the past and future pain of each minority nor educate the majority of rights and wrongs. If we let the words out and let the feelings run free into other people's ears, it would just bleed the same problems infinitely over and over again until we get gangrene and have to cut the world apart limb by limb by limb. A more likely alternative has been around for centuries... in fact it can even be the purpose of this game if you wish it to be... take your aggressions out in the game, but keep your feelings about other people to yourself. The whole point for me as a pianist is to 'play' out my feelings... so get in the game and try 'playing' it out.
(I don't mean you specifically,)
If you're on blue... it's clear I am on red!
Think of it this way, for some who might again ask why to 'open' yourself up and tell the world something most people now a days don't really care about... people who like/love/whatever people of the same sex; have a sexual preference other than straight and have at one point in time had to hide who they are for a period of time - or still are - have this 'place' in a 3D world in which they can be themselves. No eyes to look at. No one to ask you questions about you and you never having to see their face, knowing they know you're 'secret'. Just as heroes and villains must put on their cloaks, capes and insignia, every one of every minority can take off whatever mask they've had on and be themselves - they can be who they want to be.
If I came across strong please forgive me. My partner was shot right in front of me two years ago today. In his honor and because he devoted himself to equal rights, I am posting in minority-driven-topics alone today.
Once again sorry if I was to strong.
-Red Horn
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To respond to this first... It's really hard to say anything to such an event without coming across as either condescending or insincere, but I am deeply sorry for your loss. I can't imagine how that must feel, and I won't insult you by pretending to. I can only hope that the responisble parties were brought to justice, although that will likely be scant consolation.|
Originally Posted by Red_Horn
If I came across strong please forgive me. My partner was shot right in front of me two years ago today. In his honor and because he devoted himself to equal rights, I am posting in minority-driven-topics alone today.
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Originally Posted by Red_Horn
Once again sorry if I was to strong.
-Red Horn |
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Originally Posted by Red_Horn
@Spectral_Weaver
I don't think that's correct (IMO). Time has taught the world that we are stronger together. Taking the stitches out isn't going to help the past and future pain of each minority nor educate the majority of rights and wrongs. If we let the words out and let the feelings run free into other people's ears, it would just bleed the same problems infinitely over and over again until we get gangrene and have to cut the world apart limb by limb by limb. A more likely alternative has been around for centuries... in fact it can even be the purpose of this game if you wish it to be... take your aggressions out in the game, but keep your feelings about other people to yourself. The whole point for me as a pianist is to 'play' out my feelings... so get in the game and try 'playing' it out. (I don't mean you specifically,)* If you're on blue... it's clear I am on red! |
Please note that I have not, nor will I ever, defend anyone physically assaulting anyone else because of their ethnicity or sexual preferences. I should have emphasized that point in my previous post, so if I left the impression that I was defending such events, I abjectly apologise.
However. The only reason this is even a topic that we can broach in public (to say nothing of equal rights for homosexuals to marry, adopt, raise a family, etc.), is precisely because gays started to speak up and be seen. If they hadn't, we'd probably still have laws on the books that would sentence you to jail, or have you committed to an asylum. The less we talk about any minority, the more we ignore any potential problems as 'inconvenient', the stronger the prejudices against it become, something we've seen again and again through history.
A personal example here, which might illustrate what I mean; I have some Kurdish immigrant friends, and they're some of the most generous, friendly and downright decent people I've had the good fortune to meet. Before I met them, I had some vague notions of what Kurds were like. Prejudices, in fact, since they were opinions formed before I knew the least thing about them. And yet, people will happily spout off the most appaling nonsense about 'how those people are', and take it as fact, simply because they do not know any of them personally.
That is why staying silent, or isolating yourself from other people, seems to me to be counterproductive in the long term. It lets this kind of rot fester and spread.
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Originally Posted by Red_Horn
Think of it this way, for some who might again ask why to 'open' yourself up and tell the world something most people now a days don't really care about... people who like/love/whatever people of the same sex; have a sexual preference other than straight and have at one point in time had to hide who they are for a period of time - or still are - have this 'place' in a 3D world in which they can be themselves. No eyes to look at. No one to ask you questions about you and you never having to see their face, knowing they know you're 'secret'. Just as heroes and villains must put on their cloaks, capes and insignia, every one of every minority can take off whatever mask they've had on and be themselves - they can be who they want to be.
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Here, people aren't just free to take off the masks they wear to hide their ethnicity or sexuality, the bigots are also free to spout off as much as they like, albeit at the cost of the ban-hammer quickly descending on them for doing so. So we're right back where we started; Either hide, and let the bigots win by default, or stand up and challenge them by calling them on their crap. And in order to challenge them, we need to have them say these things openly, where we can get at them.
Thank you for your time. We now return you to your previously scheduled thread, already in progress.
* As an aside on this little note: I do have several gay characters I role-play in this game, two of each gender, three in stable relationships, and the last one too busy with his work to have the time.
"Immorality: The morality of those having a better time."
-H.L. Mencken
"My center is giving way, my right is in retreat; situation excellent. I shall attack."
-Ferdinand Foch
Ha, ha. well I also believe that people who are blond feel the same thing every time I say "I am soooo blond"... Its just like straight people saying "That is sooo gay!"- but I'm blond too... and forgive me, because I was soooo blond in my earlier post. We are on the same side, we're just looking at it from different vantage points.
I think it's a great thing that you role play your toons. I have two male heroes as an item and their nemesis (Red Horn <<<the pic<<<) who's sister also has an 'unlabeled' sexual preference. My straight toon hero had some industrial corruption... I had to say bye bye to him dang-it!
Okay back to topic...
I think that proposing a universal chat handle for g-a-y toons (not server over sever but something we could just create and it be known as the name of the channel for other servers should anyone decide to create one.) This would promote events, friendships and an even higher "user-friendly" environment online. Just a thought and some refining is in order I am sure. Figured this topic was an appropriate (and comfortable) place to suggest it.
-Red Horn
Words can have more than one meaning. If someone reads a post in the wrong tone then they may choose the wrong meaning. What is socially acceptable in one area may not be in another. I am not changing for anyone who develops an opinion.
If I come across anyone bringing up anything of a sexual nature on any of my accounts. I have 4 (Keep your friends close and your enemies closer I say). I will petition them immediately. This is just as much a game played by kids as it is adults. Not everyone in every group is a saint. My GLB friends are straight acting and awesome, the words don't matter as they're not pansies.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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If a tribunal of what are likely to be heterosexual people get together and decide that an anti-gay slur is not really anti-gay, it must be true. It's not as if heterosexuals routinely decide that what they're doing isn't anti-gay, no matter how hostile it is. Just on this thread alone, multiple posters have described themselves as not having anti-gay prejudices, but are opposed to LGBT-friendly supergroups, or think that LGB people flaunt their orientations when doing the same things that straight people do all the time.|
Originally Posted by shadowe_EU
I'm fairly sure that I remember the BBC having held an internal tribunal and reaching the conclusion that the phrase "That's so gay" was now so far removed from it's originally intended slur on homosexuality that it now simply means "lame, pathetic, worthless" to the majority of the populace, and should be considered intended as such if ever used in BBC programs.
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What has happened is that a term referring to a group of people has been appropriated as slang to mean that something is bad. This is not the same as gay people using gay to refer to themselves as people with same-sex attractions, because previously, "gay" was used to refer to an emotion or a demeanor, and not a group of people, nor was it used by gay people in an insulting manner. I'm not sure how gay people adopting a positive identifier for themselves is comparable to heterosexual people using that word to mean "bad" after it's been thoroughly associated with gay people. In what world are these two events remotely equivalent?
It is true that language evolves, and that this is an example of language evolving. In this case, it's a matter of a positive word that is used to identify a group of people that is being changed to describe stuff as bad. You can't honestly pretend that the evolving usage has absolutely no connection to the existing usage.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
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I would have been perceived as one of these... the difference is, I belong to the aforementioned group. I just don't feel that you need to detail your orientation in a game. If nothing else, is the game not full of 'characters' who have secret identities? |
Originally Posted by KaliMagdalene
Just on this thread alone, multiple posters have described themselves as not having anti-gay prejudices, but are opposed to LGBT-friendly supergroups, or think that LGB people flaunt their orientations when doing the same things that straight people do all the time.
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As Ms.Gaynor once stated 'I am what I am', but what I am is down to my manners and personality not factors that would take my own personal preferences into accord.
I feel my orientation is a part of me but it should only matter to those I love, and he's quite happy with who I am, not what.
@Wolfybane
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Well, all I can assume Kali, is that when some people were at school they never witnessed, or more to the point, on the recieving end of abuse by bullies that, among many other things, slung around words like "Gay", "***", "****", "Queer", "Sissy", "Bender" et al purely as a means of putting down anyone who didn't fit their idea of masculinity (which as far as I could tell meant picking on the kids less likely to fight back). It is from that playground usage that the new use of this term has evolved, not some completely seperate term with a word just pulled out of thin air. Yes, some people who use it now may not be aware of the why's and where's of the term and it's origin, but that doesn't stop people who were the victims of this sort of bullying remember and have feelings about it.
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Originally Posted by KaliMagdalene
If a tribunal of what are likely to be heterosexual people get together and decide that an anti-gay slur is not really anti-gay, it must be true. It's not as if heterosexuals routinely decide that what they're doing isn't anti-gay, no matter how hostile it is. Just on this thread alone, multiple posters have described themselves as not having anti-gay prejudices, but are opposed to LGBT-friendly supergroups, or think that LGB people flaunt their orientations when doing the same things that straight people do all the time.
What has happened is that a term referring to a group of people has been appropriated as slang to mean that something is bad. This is not the same as gay people using gay to refer to themselves as people with same-sex attractions, because previously, "gay" was used to refer to an emotion or a demeanor, and not a group of people, nor was it used by gay people in an insulting manner. I'm not sure how gay people adopting a positive identifier for themselves is comparable to heterosexual people using that word to mean "bad" after it's been thoroughly associated with gay people. In what world are these two events remotely equivalent? It is true that language evolves, and that this is an example of language evolving. In this case, it's a matter of a positive word that is used to identify a group of people that is being changed to describe stuff as bad. You can't honestly pretend that the evolving usage has absolutely no connection to the existing usage. |
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Then it's time for them to get off the cross, use the wood to build a bridge, and get over it.
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I think that is about the size of it. More to the point Im sure Kali will view this as proving their point but I really dont see how disagreeing with LGBT groups by defination makes the anti homosexual. Many have simply given their views in the same way as my old friend Wolfsbaine here.
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Originally Posted by St_Angelius
Well, all I can assume Kali, is that when some people were at school they never witnessed, or more to the point, on the recieving end of abuse by bullies that, among many other things, slung around words like "Gay", "***", "****", "Queer", "Sissy", "Bender" et al purely as a means of putting down anyone who didn't fit their idea of masculinity (which as far as I could tell meant picking on the kids less likely to fight back). It is from that playground usage that the new use of this term has evolved, not some completely seperate term with a word just pulled out of thin air. Yes, some people who use it now may not be aware of the why's and where's of the term and it's origin, but that doesn't stop people who were the victims of this sort of bullying remember and have feelings about it.
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I think some people have got the notion that anyone joining a LBGT SG would suddenly stop teaming, or interacting in any way with the rest of the general population. which isn't the point really. It's just like a social group to join where they can be open about who they are and talk freely without shouts of "That's not an appropriate (sp?) topic for a super hero MMO that kids might be playing!", like has already happened on this board.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Then it's time for them to get off the cross, use the wood to build a bridge, and get over it.
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Just because the person using the term does not realize the origin of the term does not mean the term is suddenly inoffensive. Consider for example the term "gypped". Although this term is now widely accepted to mean "to swindle" without people giving a second thought to its ethnic connotations, there are people for whom the term is still cringe inducing and offensive. Just because "the majority" have decided that the term is fine to use, does not mean that it no longer has negative connotations, and I believe does not mean we "the educated" (who know its origin) should suddenly condone the term.|
Originally Posted by Judgement_Dave
As I've argued elsewhere, in most cases I don't think it's actually linked to homosexuality anymore. 'Gay' has developed a second meaning (of 'lameness') and I suspect that many people who use it this way are ignorant of the words derivation (though if pressed I'd guess that they'd realise/guess it).
Languages move on. And loving language I'm often in a dichotomy over whether to embrace the changes or resist and uphold disappearing standards! On this I don't use gay in the lame-sense, but can see that it has become common enough to be a seperate definition with vanishing links to homosexuality. |
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| BTW 2 - AFAIK queer is seen as a reasonably acceptable synonym for homosexual. But as queer previously meant 'odd' isn't that actually derogatory even though accepted by many homosexuals as being fine? |
Draggynn on Virtue: lvl 50 Storm/Psi, 1389 badges
Draggynn's Guide to Storm Summoning(Gale-Tornado, updated 6/25/2011)
Avatar by Wassy full reference here
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As long as you're happy with who you are, then that's all that matters!|
Originally Posted by Tired_Angel
If its any consolation Im overweight as well!
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'Sides, nowt wrong with the bearish of us.
@Wolfybane
-Defiant Server-
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V: Spektor(50 Spiddy)
To those arguing that "gay" is a bad and should not be used to describe those certain sexual preference because of its past use as a insult i ask you to look further back to the meaning of the word where it meant something similar to happy, Joyful, festive, colorful and bright.
so if you take gay to mean any of those more positive terms the phrase "that's so gay" becomes far more positive and speaking personally when I've seen the phrase used its normally been in reference to something that's been brightly coloured
I'm also one that dislikes it when the term gay is used as a derogatorive term; and it's unfortunately rather popular on forums and MMO's. At first I would state my dislike of people using it which made matters worse most of the time. Only a very few times have I been successful in discussing this one dislike.
In that same beginning I was also very open about myself, but that too backfired so badly that from that day on I kept things more to myself; though this lead to confusing situations where I talked with people I got to know about past experiences and would refer to ex girlfriends and in the now to my current boyfriend (or my hubby as I often call him, because it fits better how I feel about our relationship).
So in general I either avoid talking about past experiences, or if I think the friendship has developed enough I might discuss more private matters - one thing for sure is that I won't discuss these matters elaborately on the forums, not even if they're specifically geared towards my sexual orientation - simply because the internet makes people even crazier than they can be when you face them in real life - and I've met some crazy scary people in my life.
This is an awsome coming out thread - I've seen posts by people who I never even suspected of being joyful 
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I really dont mean to belittle your point at all and while I of all people am a big beleiver in accepting ones responsibility I think the door swings both ways. I agree it could be irrisponsible to use a word without knowing its true meaning. But I also beleive it is for others to choose not to be offended also. In other words it gets us nowhere by attacking everyone insisting they should change.|
Originally Posted by Draggynn
Just because the person using the term does not realize the origin of the term does not mean the term is suddenly inoffensive. Consider for example the term "gypped".
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I beleive these things are a valuable oppertunity for us all to learn and evolve. On one part to be more aware and educate oneself as to true meanings, also I acceppt your point on majority rules being unfair when said majority have little empathy with anyone in a given demographic. But on the other part it means for some to be more understanding and yes forgiving.
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You're getting into the spirit of things I see |
Originally Posted by Lodestar_1977
swings both ways.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
I always just assumed that all Euro's were gay
This thread has enlightened me.
@TheBro
solo pvp?
Cooler than every single owl EVER.
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Hehe - totally! Although Im more Cubish than Bearish |
Originally Posted by Wolfesbaine
As long as you're happy with who you are, then that's all that matters!
'Sides, nowt wrong with the bearish of us. |
*starts whistling the bear necessities*
Member of GGRRR, a SG on Defiant - check out our website - GGRRR
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
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I'm a little late to this thread, but as a gay man who has been part of a GLBT SG/VG before, I definitely want to point out that the reason why GLBT SGs/VGs exist and people actively look for them is because they offer a secure location in cyberspace. While sexuality isn't something that comes up often in a video game, conversations have come up before where heterosexual guys are talking with me about girls they like and I have mentioned a guy I am attracted to. Those conversations are innocent, but sexuality was a part of them. By being part of a GLBT SG/VG, a person can feel comfortable stating in casual conversation something about the same gender, such as "Sorry I couldn't make it to the Ship Raid last night, I had to go with my boyfriend to visit his parents." In non-GLBT SGs/VGs, that level of comfort and openness isn't guaranteed, and as long as it remains an issue, people *will* form and seek out GLBT-specific groups.
Why don't heterosexuals have parades and specific groups for them? Because they don't need them. It's as simple as that.
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**chuckles** So's my other half. |
Originally Posted by Tired_Angel
Hehe - totally! Although Im more Cubish than Bearish
*starts whistling the bear necessities* |
@Wolfybane
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I think they're just more open about it - although, this game seems to attract the unhappiness-challenged from both sides of the Atlantic |
Originally Posted by thepushbolt
I always just assumed that all Euro's were gay
This thread has enlightened me. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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My other half is the bear of us two!
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Originally Posted by Wolfesbaine
**chuckles** So's my other half.
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Member of GGRRR, a SG on Defiant - check out our website - GGRRR
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
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Then how on earth did you think we procreated then? Since you are all mostly Euro offspring. Just thought Id mention it.
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Originally Posted by thepushbolt
I always just assumed that all Euro's were gay
This thread has enlightened me. |
I just find it hard that people in authority can aprove the use of one word with obvious negative connotations based on sexual persuasion, yet condemn others based on negative racial connotation. Kinda, to me at least, gives out the impression that they don't mind about upsetting the LGBT commuity.
It actually sounds plausible at least though we can make connections that arent there. After all before gay peole did use the word queer and remember homosexuality was outlawed. And the word more commonly in use as a descriptive word was queer and bent. Both of which by their defination mean odd or out of place and defective or deviant. So using Gay as saying Im happy as I am and I am as good as you at least would seem to make sense. Is it true? I dont know.