MA farming: The way to kill an MMO
By
Arctic_Princess,
Posted on: 2009-05-01 12:12 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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True enough, but Posi has used exactly the same words to describe OTHER questions regarding incoming nerfs, so it's fairly safe to say it's a general rule. If you think something needs nerfing, and other people think the same, there's a good chance the devs ALSO think the same thing.
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All very true - I was clarifying as without knowing the context of the Pocket D quote some forumites may have believed that Posi gave this answer in direct response to a question about MA farming. After all FFM said so and he was there (I know you didn't - but that's how some may have read it, much as devs get taken out of context for 75%+ of their alleged 'promises').
He didn't - so I cleared that up.
But it'd be odd if, after the devnuke approach to MA nerfs that we seen so far, the devs decide to address the machanisms that allow farming with a nerf-scalpel.
The latter always seems to win when the devs consider keyhole nerfery vs drastic nerfputation.
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For example - I teamed with some 50s on Wednesday and was surprised that the tank wasn't charging into mobs taunting and drawing aggro as most of the team were trollers and blasties. So I politely said "why aren't you taunting them?", his reply was......whats taunting? 
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Frankly, this mainly means that the person perhaps have not played MMOs before where taunting is used or have rarely teamed in MMOs that do have that where he might have picked up info about the mechanic.
So you have hopefully now given him something more to think about when playing his character, which is a good thing.
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For example - I teamed with some 50s on Wednesday and was surprised that the tank wasn't charging into mobs taunting and drawing aggro as most of the team were trollers and blasties. So I politely said "why aren't you taunting them?", his reply was......whats taunting?
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Frankly, this mainly means that the person perhaps have not played MMOs before where taunting is used or have rarely teamed in MMOs that do have that where he might have picked up info about the mechanic.
So you have hopefully now given him something more to think about when playing his character, which is a good thing.
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Well to be fair I did give him some advice which he was very happy to listen to, I always try to help new players and I hope it will help him get more out of the game. It's just a level 50 tank who doesn't know what taunt is, perhaps that's a sign of the times. It took me weeks/months to get my tank to 50 and yes my taunt button needed replacing serveral times 
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Well to be fair I did give him some advice which he was very happy to listen to, I always try to help new players and I hope it will help him get more out of the game. It's just a level 50 tank who doesn't know what taunt is, perhaps that's a sign of the times. It took me weeks/months to get my tank to 50 and yes my taunt button needed replacing serveral times
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You never know how he got to 50.
Friend i met on the US was always lvling with his family, his dad being the 'big tank' and he was just around to wack mobs. I loved mace, wich is tank only, and played it as it was a scrapper.
Or, he could have been told certain tank sets done need taunt, like a ice/fire with such trashload of AoE's, little chance you need to go use taunt on fairly solid teams.
But most of the time its easier to link it to the 'big problem of the day'. I care little how he got there, why he dont know, i'm willing to help him if he needs some advice. But i play my toon, he plays his, if we team up we need to make the best of it.
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You never know how he got to 50.
Friend i met on the US was always lvling with his family, his dad being the 'big tank' and he was just around to wack mobs. I loved mace, wich is tank only, and played it as it was a scrapper.
Or, he could have been told certain tank sets done need taunt, like a ice/fire with such trashload of AoE's, little chance you need to go use taunt on fairly solid teams.
But most of the time its easier to link it to the 'big problem of the day'. I care little how he got there, why he dont know, i'm willing to help him if he needs some advice. But i play my toon, he plays his, if we team up we need to make the best of it.
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Actually I know as I asked him, he got to 50 in 8 hours or so using MA so Im not just jumping on the bandwagon. Also it was his first toon.
Don't get me wrong I agree, "let him play his toon, I'll play mine". The point was two fold:
1 )The team dynamics meant we were looking to the tank to lead the charge, this didn't happen (as the guy didn't understand this), meaning the team waited nervously at every mob waiting for someone to do something, causing lots of team wipes , causing grief for the guy and some bad feeling meaning perhaps he wont stay with the game. Sure I know, I didn't have to stay with the team.
2) The main point. Surely any game that allows you to reach the level cap without any real learning curve is ultimately flawed?
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That people dont play to your 'expectations' (heeeey thats the keyword again), aint really their problem. I love a challenge, i love my blaster on a team where a tank doesnt use taunt.
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There's a difference between knowing how to doing it and somehow failing to do so.
And not knowing how to at all..
Fury
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Agreed. I also think we as veteran players need to take some responsibility for helping these new players, both to become better and to actually find the content in the game which we ourselves found fun.
If you team with a player who you feel has been prematurely PLd and 'doesnt know how to play', why not help them if you can? I must admit i have got very frustrated at times with players who dont meet my expectations, but i will always go out of my way to help those who want or ask for it. If you see a tank incapable of taking aggro or missing an essential skill, speak up - especially if its a set you know well yourself. I've found most new players actually want to be good at the game, they just think that 24/7 farming is the way to do it because they dont know any better...
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2) The main point. Surely any game that allows you to reach the level cap without any real learning curve is ultimately flawed?
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Not really.
Like sistergame Guildwars, you can reach lvl20 with your eyes closed (factions), but only having a handfull of skills to choose from. Not untill you go cap them yourself you can get more skills and learn the game itself.
WoW, using a RAF u can reach 60 within 2 days, do it twice and you get a free lvl60 additional. No gear, no skills, often not even any achievement.
This game really aint that stupid hard that it takes you 50 whole lvls to learn the basics of the game. Give me any AT at 50, a few missions and i'm good to go.
From my own experience i saw more people quiting because the lower lvls are boring and (unexperienced) takes ages (wrong class, no stamina, u get the stuff), then i see people leaving because they got 50 and got bored with nothing to do. Few friends saw me going around with pets, skills, powers, whatever, while they only had 4 attacks, shields then drain em empty and had difficulty defeating multiple mobs.
Due the sidekick and exemplar system you basicly can replay the entire 1-50 again, just in reverse. That said, maybe the community is changing into a different way of playing, that doesnt mean its bad. Some take their conclussions and feel its time to leave, others just see what time will bring.
I enjoy myself still, i focus on things now that gave me alot of joy in the old days and still give now. As long as i am a happy player and can team with other happy players, i care little how what when and why.
Eventualy this player either leave, or gets into the learning curve, making him a decent player in a week or so. Just that you happen to stumble to him today, doesnt make him bad tomorow..
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The Dev's have a problem:
this isn't just about the MA in City of Heroes - they've delivered a potentially world beating tool that can seriously reshape the direction of MMOs and RPGs. It gives them a tool with which they can create an entirely new game where the players are in control. It's seriously showcase material and has I suspect got a lot of the other MMOs wondering and possibly more than a tad worried. It's an industry prototype.
That brings in two further elements:
The Devs who worked on this may not always work for Paragon Studios. They may find for one or other reason they will be looking for work in the wider world and having the Mission Architect on their CV is going to be a seriously huge feather in their cap. If it's a success.
Paragon Studios need the world to see this as a success to justify the investment they've made in it in time and money. To have it perceived as a farmers glory is problematic in the wider industry. With something as bleeding edge as this and the entire industry watching, to hit it with a NukeNerf would be damaging to the reputation of Paragon and the MA.
How they respond to that is going to be interesting.
My own thoughts are along the lines of the floowing options either individually or combined in some way:
Make the MA an Unlockable product that can only be achieved by having at least one level 50 (a la HEATs & VEATS, preferably one of each.)
Reduce all rewards (XP, inf & tickets) from MA missions by initially 25% and a further 25% if that fails to solve the problem.
Remove all existing rewards, give a single Mission Bonus reward and a TF rewards for completion of each component of an arc.
Deliver XP according to character level regardless of mission level (as per Rikti/Zombie invasions. Don't think I've ever seen anyone "farm one of them even when the go on over 30 minutes and the world isn't full of people dinging very 26.2 seconds.) In other words if you are level 5, you get the xp you'd normally get for defeating a level 5 enemy. I think as things stand the XP is higher but I could be mistaken.
Automatically give every mob on 4man team spawns and higher a Lt & Boss by default that cannot be removed (I appreciate this is clunky but it is an option.)
Limit the number of times a specific player can play a specific mission on an account wide basis.
Allow players to earn redeemable tokens in the main story arcs that allow them timed access to the MA. For example each mission you complete in the game proper gives you roughly 5-10 minutes time in the MA. So to get an hour playing (not designing or testing) MA arcs you'd have to do roughly 6 long missions or 12 short ones.
Those are just a few options available. I reckon every one of you can think up other ideas.
Thelonious Monk
Trouble is if you start removing the rewards from MA, it will end up going from popular feature, to empty zone used by creative people.
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Trouble is if you start removing the rewards from MA, it will end up going from popular feature, to empty zone used by creative people.
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And a lot more unsubscriptions to lolCoX.
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Trouble is if you start removing the rewards from MA, it will end up going from popular feature, to empty zone used by creative people.
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Or give it a daily limit. Big game did it succesfully and now GW done it likewise, works pretty good.
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As they're adding the ability to specify a level range for MA arcs in I15, why not just require that arcs have a range, no wider than 5-6 levels, and not give XP or INF when you play arcs outside your current level?
that could work provided that it took into account LKs
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As they're adding the ability to specify a level range for MA arcs in I15, why not just require that arcs have a range, no wider than 5-6 levels, and not give XP or INF when you play arcs outside your current level?
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Creativity of the player has no limits, they will think up something for it 
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2) The main point. Surely any game that allows you to reach the level cap without any real learning curve is ultimately flawed?
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Not necessarily, that depends on what the level cap means, if there are levels at all. If you take Guild Wars as an example, reaching level cap pretty much means that you have gone through the newbie part in the PvE content. For PvP, you can start at max level immediately.
Now a vast majority of the content in Guild Wars is also for max level, which is of course different from the design of many level-based MMOs, CoX included.
I certainly agree that players should go through a learning curve. But at what point?
I would hazard a guess that most people who have not been conditioned to level-based MMO game mechanics over the years would like to feel pretty powerful in a superhero/supervillain game quite soon after starting to play it.
I think the deisgn flaw is rather that the time that would normally have been necessary for learning enough powers is too long and that they game is not necessarily helping people learning their powers.
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As they're adding the ability to specify a level range for MA arcs in I15, why not just require that arcs have a range, no wider than 5-6 levels, and not give XP or INF when you play arcs outside your current level?
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Creativity of the player has no limits, they will think up something for it
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^ This.
It doesn't really matter what Paragon Studios do, someone WILL find a way to farm the MA, and make loads of XP etc from it as long as it has rewards.
The only way to actually stop it completely is to take away ALL rewards from it. Any thing else, and people WILL find a way to abuse it.
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Trouble is if you start removing the rewards from MA, it will end up going from popular feature, to empty zone used by creative people.
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Or give it a daily limit. Big game did it succesfully and now GW done it likewise, works pretty good.
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A daily limit seems fair to me.
Stripping all rewards will kill it dead and make i14 and half of i15 completely pointless.
Lol. im loving how people moan about MA currently. i remeber when ppl were moaning when MA wasnt out. funny how u cant make people happy if u do or dont now.
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I would hazard a guess that most people who have not been conditioned to level-based MMO game mechanics over the years would like to feel pretty powerful in a superhero/supervillain game quite soon after starting to play it.
I think the deisgn flaw is rather that the time that would normally have been necessary for learning enough powers is too long and that they game is not necessarily helping people learning their powers.
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True enough, the game currently doesn't offer any real tutorial for AT's. However you could equally argue that's part of the fun, if the player takes to time to learn about the power sets and plays them the way they want to.
Although it can be a grind to get to 50 (without farming), isn't this one of the game mechanics to keep the players subscribing and also master their toon?
Surely no-one agrees that getting a toon from 1 50 in 6-8 hours is good for the game?
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Simple answer - cap the rewards per hour in the MA at, say, 100-150% of what you would expect to gain doing canon missions. People who are doing non-exploitative missions won't feel a thing.
"The Hamidon is a what what of what?" - Brian the mission guy.
The problem exsisted before MA , who has not seen the "what is the best farming build " threads across this forum .
All MA has done is moved it into the spotlight
Why should the rest of us suffer and have our MA options and rewards limited , if farmers want to farm let them , and put them on ignore .
lets face it the WW/BM market was never a honest market , prices where hyped all the time .Players framed inf and Enhancement drops all the time .
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I would hazard a guess that most people who have not been conditioned to level-based MMO game mechanics over the years would like to feel pretty powerful in a superhero/supervillain game quite soon after starting to play it.
I think the deisgn flaw is rather that the time that would normally have been necessary for learning enough powers is too long and that they game is not necessarily helping people learning their powers.
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True enough, the game currently doesn't offer any real tutorial for AT's. However you could equally argue that's part of the fun, if the player takes to time to learn about the power sets and plays them the way they want to.
Although it can be a grind to get to 50 (without farming), isn't this one of the game mechanics to keep the players subscribing and also master their toon?
Surely no-one agrees that getting a toon from 1 50 in 6-8 hours is good for the game?
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your back to the problem , is the game about leveling from 1 to 50 in five weeks , or is it about having fun ?
the fact that you CAN get to 50 and enjoy the scope of a 50 in just a few hours will appeal to some people ...what is wrong with that ?
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My own thoughts are along the lines of the floowing options either individually or combined in some way:
Make the MA an Unlockable product that can only be achieved by having at least one level 50 (a la HEATs & VEATS, preferably one of each.)
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Why? It is a prominent feature of the game, so if people would need to spend 100s of hours to get there they might not bother with the game at all. I think that MA being available to everyone is a big strength.
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Reduce all rewards (XP, inf & tickets) from MA missions by initially 25% and a further 25% if that fails to solve the problem.
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So instead of getting to 50 in 6 hours, they will get to 50 in 8-10 hours. Someone playing at more normal progression speed would have 10s of hours added if they want to play MA missions.
MA provides more variation in the missions they take on at all levels.
There are many people who like the CoX setting, but do not play it or play it regularly because it has been too much of the same to progress in the game. The main penatly here would be for those playing the game normally, not the ones that are farming xp.
[/ QUOTE ]Remove all existing rewards, give a single Mission Bonus reward and a TF rewards for completion of each component of an arc.
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See above.
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Deliver XP according to character level regardless of mission level (as per Rikti/Zombie invasions. Don't think I've ever seen anyone "farm one of them even when the go on over 30 minutes and the world isn't full of people dinging very 26.2 seconds.) In other words if you are level 5, you get the xp you'd normally get for defeating a level 5 enemy. I think as things stand the XP is higher but I could be mistaken.
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But Rikti invasion etc have the relative levels fixed and thus not really a difficulty settings. If the difficulty settings are still in place it is a penalty for the normal players. Less severe than the previous ones, but still something I think hurt the normal players more than the farmers.
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Automatically give every mob on 4man team spawns and higher a Lt & Boss by default that cannot be removed (I appreciate this is clunky but it is an option.)
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A bit clunky yes, not quite sure how much gain that would give to alleviate any problems.
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Limit the number of times a specific player can play a specific mission on an account wide basis.
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Perhaps not a strict limit, but rather one of dimishing returns and cooldown for that limit.
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Allow players to earn redeemable tokens in the main story arcs that allow them timed access to the MA. For example each mission you complete in the game proper gives you roughly 5-10 minutes time in the MA. So to get an hour playing (not designing or testing) MA arcs you'd have to do roughly 6 long missions or 12 short ones.
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The problem here is that you would be forcing a certain player behaviour. What if someone is sick and tired of playing most of the regular content because they already has done that a number of times? What if they find the regular content a bit boring but a lot of the MA stuff fun?
I think you could end up with people grinding newspaper missions for hours just so they could have some fun playing in MA.
How is that so much better than people grinding farm missions so that they can have some fun with their now powerful characters?
I think one first has to more properly identify the problems here. The problem is not that a character can go from level 1 to 50 in 6 hours. The problems are really effects of that activity in relation to the current game design, not the activity itself.
Looking at things people complain about here I think problems seen are rather things like:
1. Inflated prices on items in Consignment House
2. Too much uninteresting spam in broadcast channels in a few zones, annoys people (e.g. Atlas Park)
3. Teaming with players who have a limited understanding of their archetype and powerset abilities
4. More difficult to find teams to play more interesting content.
5. Wrong impression given to new players due to the farming.
And at all times I think the requirement should be to avoid penalties to players who play the game more or less as intended.
I think a dimishing returns approach could possibly work here, given that the limits are set high enough not to be disruptive for "normal" play, but still low enough to reduce effects on the economy.
Perhaps looking at introducing more content after the tutorial at various later stages which are optional but rewarding and which helps with the "learn to play" part.
Ideally I think a major redesign of the whole leveling and power allocation would be beneficial, but would not be realistic to do.
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tbh i have no problems with ppl farm, what i do have problems with is ppl abusing the broadcast in zones like atlas and cap
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When Posi said the quoted sentence, I believe it was in this exchange (from my prettified chatlogs):
04-28-2009 18:34:00 [Local] Fulcrum: lol, I have to ask - is DM/Regen getting nerfed again anytime soon?
04-28-2009 18:34:16 [Local] Positron: If you feel a nerf is coming... it probably is.
So the quote appeared to be in direct relation to DM/Regen. It may well have been a general throwaway comment - replying generally rather than addressing the specifics of DM/Regen - but it may be seen as a tad unfair to just use the reply without giving the context it was said in.
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True enough, but Posi has used exactly the same words to describe OTHER questions regarding incoming nerfs, so it's fairly safe to say it's a general rule. If you think something needs nerfing, and other people think the same, there's a good chance the devs ALSO think the same thing.
And we all know how they love to be heavy handed on nerfs.
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