Time for a change on Heroes side?

First of all i assure you this is not a nerf post, I am not good with latest trends.

Last night while playing my defender solo a question stuck into my head and i want to know what you think about it. Before getting into serious explanation on my point, i will apologize if this post'll become too long and maybe not too clear but i promise i will try to explain it the best way i can.

We all know hero ATs designed for teams and their inherent powers reflect that. To me only 2 poor ATs reflect that and thanks to other thread about least favorite AT, proves i am a bit right about that. Yes i am talking about Tankers and Defenders and their inherent power which are useless outside of teams.

If we look all 5 hero ATs (I won't include HEATs but if you think they should, throw your ideas in);

Blaster: Their inherent power allows them to use 1st tier powers even mezzed(3 powers in total). Also their primary or secondary powers make more damage if they used in a short period of time.

Controllers: Containment. Does double damage to any mezzed enemy, even they're mezzed by another team mate or another enemy. Also they have that nice critical mez power.

Defenders: They use less endurance when their team mates are wounded. The more they close to grasp of death the less endurance they spend.

Scrappers: Critical hit. They sometimes get a critical hit which does double damage.

Tankers: Gauntlet. Their attack taunt enemies around them and make enemies attack the tanker instead of team mates.

Well as you can see, 3 of 5 has inherent powers which help them no matter if they solo or not. Tankers inherent can be usefull in teams but defenders inherent makes half of the AT sets hitting themselves on their foot. Empathy, Rad, Dark, Kin and Storm defenders have healing powers which makes inherent power more useless.

I know some players will say "Heroes are more team oriented ATs" but even if we are more team oriented, personally i love to solo a bit. Not because i am associal but as we are playing super heroes i want to see my hero stand up against regular mobs (like heroic mobs, +1 at best).

You can solo on defenders or tanks with a solo build. With new 2nd build option it is available to us now. Still their inherent powers are useless in solo.

So i think an update on Tanker and Defender inherents will be good (actually i think it is needed but i don't want to demand it if i am the only one who's thinking in this way). I don't have any idea what suits best for those ATs. Maybe something like D&D 4e, Tankers get a buff to hit or damage on taunted foes. Maybe defenders lower end cost will be general not dependant on team mates lives. In the end i guess devs will find something better like they did to Blasters.

This is all i wanted to say about this matter i guess.

What do you think about it?

Highest Regards,

Knightly

Negligence - sorry, Vigilance, is the crappiest inherent in the game at the moment. It's useless solo, and in teams it promotes playing badly, like old Defiance did. It needs a revamp. Something that'll benefit all primaries equally, and not promote bad gameplay. Currently, it heavily favors healzors.

[ QUOTE ]
Currently, it heavily favors healzors.

[/ QUOTE ]
Surely it could only favour healzors who can't heal - as if they could heal then the team health wouldn't be low so vigilance wouldn't make a difference.

Vigilance is possibly the poorest inherent, and was even before defiance was revamped. It has no use solo and is hardly noticeable in teams, and then only if the team has bitten off far more than it can chew. So be a poor defender (and let your team get hurt too much and healed too little) or at least a defender in a poor team (who don't know their own limits) and the inherent may kick in for the last few seconds before the team wipes...

Changing the other CoH inherents to be as useful as vigilance would mean giving altering scrappers critical hits so they only get them on missed attacks.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Currently, it heavily favors healzors.

[/ QUOTE ]
Surely it could only favour healzors who can't heal - as if they could heal then the team health wouldn't be low so vigilance wouldn't make a difference.

[/ QUOTE ]
Heal sets depend on healing to get team's health up.
Other sets depend on buffs to prevent team's health from going down.

Fact remains, do your job well and your inherrent is useless. Do a [censored] job, and your inherant isn't going to help you.

Wild idea. Change Vigilance so that Primary powers reduce endurance cost in a similar way to the way Defiance buffs damage (this would need to be scaled so that the more spammable power sets don't have an advantage over the less spammable ones). Then take the Secondary power sets give them a [very small) effect that works similar to Power Build Up (ie buffs the effects of Primaries (ToHit Buffs/Debuffs, Heals etc). Of course things like Damage Buffs would need to be handled carefully to avoid them becoming overpowered.
That way Defenders get a bit more viable soloing. Just an idea, I'm sure someone will think of a way this would be horrendously overpowered.

Edited for typo

Got to agree the defender inherent is rubbish it serves no useful purpose. The same go's for the tank inherent its not just as bad as at least the tank can function on teams but solo its pointless.

I think the rolls of the hero ATs are changing its no good to just be a team er any more as there's no guarantee that you'll get a team and even if you do what you would traditionally bring to a team may not be required.

As to a fix im not sure the issue has crossed my mind in the past and the best i could come up with were the following

Defender.

keep the basic idea as is but expand it have the power look at the health of the team as a hole so that the defenders stats are included within the calculation so that even solo the defender will benefit.

do away with the endurance discount and instead have the power apply +heal +def +def +secondery effect +dmg to the defender these effects would grow as the teams health dropped

also give the defender +regen +recovery aura which would kick in as the teams health began to drop.

Its not great and still rewards the the defender for doing badly but at least boosts all aspects (i think) of a defenders primary powers and even gives them a damage boost allowing them to fight back. you could also give them a self sacrifice power where the defender could "sacrifice" there life to res a ally the sacrifice could also trigger a vengeance type effect.

Tanks.

a tanks major problem solo seems to be a lack of damage a basic boss fight can last for a huge chunk of time but its not a epic fight its just a very boring slugging match.

If possible i would like to see tanks receive a damage boost for every foe taunted by them receiving a big boost for the first foe taunted and then a smaller boost for additional taunted targets this way it would still encourage the tank to taunt and make use of the punch voke power and so keeping aggro from the team but also boost there damage. the damage boost would even carry over to solo play where the tank would still get good use out of its punch voke power.

[QR]

I'd say a tanks inherent IS good solo as you tend not to get the runners. It's not just about them hitting you, it's about keeping them hitting you. I can't tell you how many times I see enemies run on other ATs and begins a ludicrous chase across half the map just because they finally consider me a threat. On my tank I can just hit taunt and they come running back and as long as I keep attacking they are kept drawn to me.

The defender inherent is a very team-oriented one. I'd like to think that maybe it could be based on the strength of your team as opposed to the state of their health but I haven't really thought about it much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dispari I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.

Tanker inherent is either useless or way under-powered. Even if you wade into a mob first and start cracking heads before the teams has moved in, enemies will STILL rip off after that nice squishy blaster and normally pulp them all across the floor. This is low level, before taunt. Once you HAVE taunt, why in the name of all that invulnerable do you NEED the inherent?
Giving tankers something that encourages taunting and such-not would be nice, like a bonus to something the more enemies are nearby.
I agree that vigilance is also rahter useless. My Empath never seems to have end problems, its true, but I doubt very much thats to do with the inherent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

QR

I don't think you can take Gauntlet away from Tankers without breaking them in team play. Punchvoking and holding enemies with Mud Pots etc only work because Gauntlet makes all Tanker powers Taunt. Without this, enemies simply flock to the first blaster that hits them with an AoE. (As the Blaster's damage makes the Tanker's look feeble.)

Of course, there's nothing to stop the devs from giving the tankers something as well as automatic taunting! I can't see this happening really.

Also I'm with Tyger on this. It's quite handy to get enemies to stick close to you, especially when your attacks are predominantly melee.

Not sure about changing tanks because I think the gauntlet power is already very good, but only in teams. I am not sure if I want to sacrifice team performance for solo performance.

Defenders on the other hand do have a big problem. But finding a new inherant is also difficult as some sets have powers you can spam over and over (Empathy aura for one) and other sets are more fire and forget (Bubbles) so something that benefits those using powers more often is not going to work. Similarly front loaded sets like bubbles need an inherant that helps them even before the fight has started, as no amount of rebubbling is going to save an already bubbled team that is about to wipe. But empathy needs something that benefits them when the team is fighting rather than before.

Sadly I have no idea what would help all defender sets equally.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aggelakis PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"

[ QUOTE ]
Tanker inherent is either useless or way under-powered. Even if you wade into a mob first and start cracking heads before the teams has moved in, enemies will STILL rip off after that nice squishy blaster and normally pulp them all across the floor. This is low level, before taunt.

[/ QUOTE ]

This doesn't match my experience of tanking at all. There are only two circumstances when a tank loses control. The first is when the tank attempts to aggro more mobs than the taunt limit. (16 IIRC) In other words, the tank is biting off more than it can chew.

The second, is when the tank fails to maintain Taunt by hitting or Taunting the bad guys often enough. That's why the classic tank move is to aggro mobs into range of an AoE such as Mud Pots which will then aggro them indefinitely.

Really, if your tank can't hold aggro then you need to re-examine your build or your tactics.

QR
[ QUOTE ]
This is low level, before taunt.

[/ QUOTE ]
Isn't taunt available at level 10? I know I usually grab it at about 12 or 14 (as 10 is often another defensive power to help me last the aggro for more than 5 seconds..)

Is anyone particularly worried about how the inherents play up to level 10?? Considering that up to level 10 may take something like 10 - 20 hours at a casual, soloing saunter but post level 10 may take over a couple of hundred hours play even if you never play again once you hit 50.

i.e. <10 is a blink in the eye of a characters life...

Give defenders a damage buff when everyone on the team is at full health (applies to self when solo).

Doesn't help them do their job, but rewards them for it, and encorages them to get in and fight when buffs are buffed and heals are not needed.

Also helps soloability.

[ QUOTE ]
Give defenders a damage buff when everyone on the team is at full health (applies to self when solo).

Doesn't help them do their job, but rewards them for it, and encorages them to get in and fight when buffs are buffed and heals are not needed.

Also helps soloability.

[/ QUOTE ]

That'd be nice alright.

Maybe a little less on-off, have it scale down as people lose HP.

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe a little less on-off, have it scale down as people lose HP.

[/ QUOTE ]

It'd have to really, otherwise Sonic defenders get a bit of a bum deal along with FFs.

I wasn't suggesting that tankers loose there gauntlet power in fact it would be pretty necessary for my suggestion to work properly.

What i was suggesting was that for every opponent taunted to the tank (via taunt or gauntlet) the tank would receive a damage boost

So the tank inherent would sacrifice nothing for teaming and would in fact be more useful as they would cause more damage.

while solo the taunt damage boost would give the tank some more damage making it less of a slog.

Also they could perhaps up the tanker damage cap as it seems very low.

<QR>

Just for clarification... I don't think Gauntlet should change in its basic form. How controllers and blasters can have two inherent power, Tanks should have Gauntlet + something in my opinion.

Also i wish how you manage to stick foes to you with gauntlet. My Inv/Fire tankers life spend with chasing foes, even with taunt (Solo and with Combustion + Taunt). I am doing something very wrong i guess.

Me to i have much the same problem with my invul/energy run in taunt + whirling hands so the mobs on me, fire blaster opens up, dead fire blaster even with more taunts some always peal of and attack the poor blaster.

The defender's inherent including itself as a team member would fix the problem. Then, loosing health whilst solo would give you an end discount.

I agree with the OP though, you make some good points.

To a certain extent this is as much the failing of the Blaster as it is the Taunt effect. In my experience it's a common delusion that Taunt is an absolute effect. This results in Blasters throwing the kitchen sink at a mob and then being suprised when they suddenly get a close up view to the local flooring.

Some blasters need to learn how to start off with less conspicuous attacks and build up to unleashing their big hitters. Even Defiance, in its current form, supports this strategy.

[ QUOTE ]
I wasn't suggesting that tankers loose there gauntlet power in fact it would be pretty necessary for my suggestion to work properly.

What i was suggesting was that for every opponent taunted to the tank (via taunt or gauntlet) the tank would receive a damage boost

So the tank inherent would sacrifice nothing for teaming and would in fact be more useful as they would cause more damage.

while solo the taunt damage boost would give the tank some more damage making it less of a slog.

Also they could perhaps up the tanker damage cap as it seems very low.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im liking this

A damage boost even if just related to gauntlet for up to 16 ememies the first giving the biggest boost etc etc would help immencely in keeping aggro away from a trigger happy blaster.

QR

<Climbs down off high horse>

Sorry. Got a bit carried away earlier. First of all, I should confess that my only tank is a Stone/Energy. I suspect Mud Pots is one of the better powers for holding aggro. (It's an auto-hit toggle.) I should have remembered that other combinations might behave very differently.

Re: Knighly's tank. You don't have a nice AoE toggle to hold stuff which makes it harder. However, Combustion and Fire Sword Circle have reasonable taunt durations and recharge times. I'd slot at least one of these for taunt, accuracy and recharge and then fire them off as fast as possible. That should ensure that you hit each mob at least once before the Gauntlet taunt wears off. If you've slotted both these powers for damage then the Gauntlet taunt will tend to wear off.

As for the Mess's inv/energy, yikes. You really don't have much to hold aggro there. I think the only thing you can do is slot Whirling Hands for taunt, recharge and accuracy.

I'm guessing that you both have the PBAoE powers slotted for damage. This means that the Gauntlet taunt is wearing off before you can punckvoke again.

I can see why you'd do that; they're your primary damage powers. I guess you just have to decide whether it's more important to do damage or hold aggro.

Okay here is a quick reply for my tank, Archie.

He was around level 20 when i deleted him. So other than my primary powers my attacks have next to none sloting. If i recall correctly my Combustion had 3 slots (Acc,End Rdx,Rch or two End Rdx). The thing is after combustion enemies run like a hell and even taunt can't bring them back. I have no problem with my Inv/Dark tho. Whenever he taunts, mobs turns and attack again. I will start Mr.Twinkle as Inv/Fire again and this time slot taunt with taunt enchantement(will use taunt IO later).
------------------------------------------

On topic,

Mess idea seems very nice. Also i think tankers damage is too low, too. Come on how can someone with Super Stregth makes less damage than a Martial Artist. In Paragon Batman beats Superman i guess. Same applies for defenders. Controllers whose have lowest damage (in AT defination at least) makes more damage than defenders (some sets excluded).

Ok I'm kinda wondering where this came from and hope somebody can explain

As far as I know the only inherent to have been changed is Defiance because that was a bit poo really. But (and I'm very happy to be corrected here) the other inherents are "as is" - the same from day one.

So that means that they've been going for almost 5 years.

This isn't one of the most popular topics for discussion so I'm guessing that they ain't that broke, and if that's the case, why fix it? I would be very loathe to see Dev time being directed at something that's not really necessary, but then I'm a firm believer that change for its own sake is a waste of energy (and frequently misdirected.)

I'm not a great player of melee toons, but for me the other inherents seem to work fine.

"You got to dig it to dig it, you dig?"
Thelonious Monk