Time for a change on Heroes side?
By
Archie Gremlin,
Posted on: 2009-02-04 09:02 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
It comes up from time to time in my opinion the defender and tank inherents are broke in the same way as the blaster inherent was.
While really there was nothing wrong with the blasters inherent and it could have been left as is the dev's decided to go back and give it another pass.
I personally would like to see the same happen with defenders and tanks.
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As for the Mess's inv/energy, yikes. You really don't have much to hold aggro there. I think the only thing you can do is slot Whirling Hands for taunt, recharge and accuracy.
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If only that was the case i have to builds my original build has whirly hands with a mixture of taunt IOs and acc in it as whirly is only in there to grab agro (energy's not known for its AoE death) i did have my single target attacks slotted for damage but have also put taunt enhancements in the fast recharging ones.
my second build is largely slotted for damage with whirling hands getting 2x acc 1x end 2x dmg 1x taunt
on both builds i have started to slot taunt with the perfect zinger set
i see very little difference in there aggro grabbing performance to the point that I'm in the process of striping out the IOs from my second build to use in other alts
I think the problem may lie in the taunt target cap and its radius of effect several times on 8 man teams where there have been large spawns I've noticed that the taunt can very often overlap into a second mob meaning that its pretty easy to end up having to manage multiple groups especially if your in AOE heavy teams as the same thing can happen with team mates AOE powers.
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While yes to a certain extent yes i suppose it is partially the blasters fault the fact that the blaster can override the aggro generated by CoHs meat shield AT just proves to me that tanks no longer do what they were supposed to do.
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I'm fairly sure that a tank can only lose aggro to a damage toon if the mob is no longer Taunted. There might be an exception for AVs which allow the damage toon to build up a lot of threat. Paragon wiki has an article with the threat calculation. So as long as the Tanker maintains taunt he holds aggro. This is certainly the case with my Stone tank who can hold aggro all day against his duo partner who is a fire blaster.
Of course the opposite is true as well. Once the mob is no longer taunted, it's hard for a Tanker to hold aggro from a damage toon. It just doesn't dish out enough damage.
Back on topic, I like TheMess's solution. It keeps tankers in their primary role and makes them solo better. The extra damage won't bother a team 'cos the damage toons will still kill everything first anyway!
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I think the problem may lie in the taunt target cap and its radius of effect several times on 8 man teams where there have been large spawns I've noticed that the taunt can very often overlap into a second mob meaning that its pretty easy to end up having to manage multiple groups especially if your in AOE heavy teams as the same thing can happen with team mates AOE powers.
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Yeah it can all go horribly wrong at that point. If you've already got one large spawn taunted and you (or your team mates) accidentally trigger another spawn then there's not much you can do. If you try to taunt the second spawn you exceed the spawn cap and lose control of the first spawn. I tend to just hang on to the first spawn at that point and hope the damage toons take the hint.
It would be nice to see Defenders get a better inherent. As everyone's pointed out, the current one just seems useless.
If anything the game should change to even MORE promote teaming. Yes, it's nice to be able to solo, but at times this game was getting plain silly with about 100 people online not teaming at all.
For me, the whole idea of an MMO is to play with others and that's reflected in most of my characters and their builds. The success of villain corrs also reflect it imho, being pretty ok solo, but nearly necessary for serious team play (AVs etc).
Also, I've never found it impossible to solo, even on my empath/ice defender that from the start focused on the empath job. Yes it took AGES to complete even a simple mission, but it wasn't hard. Tankers? You're kidding, right? My axe/inv tanker was my first alt, a cool solo alt I still keep for nostalgic reasons even if it's still about lvl 30.
With 2 builds for every alt and the possibility to respec once higher level as well, I really don't see the problem. As I said, ANY incentive to make people team even more is a god given prezzie imho. The last thing we need is more vigilante "heroes" working in the dark! 
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As far as I know the only inherent to have been changed is Defiance because that was a bit poo really. But (and I'm very happy to be corrected here) the other inherents are "as is" - the same from day one.
So that means that they've been going for almost 5 years.
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IIRC Not quite from day one of the game, so not five years.
The hero inherents only came in after CoV came with its inherents - before that CoH didn't have inherents iirc. So you could look at it as any inherent, no matter how poor, is a bonus...
Note: I wasn't playing befoe CoV nor before CoH inherents and I'm going off memory, so I may have it off a bit!
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your pretty much correct pre cov some hero ATs had inherents but they weren't really a feature if i remember correctly scrappers have always had crits and tanks always had some for of punch voke
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As far as I know the only inherent to have been changed is Defiance because that was a bit poo really. But (and I'm very happy to be corrected here) the other inherents are "as is" - the same from day one.
So that means that they've been going for almost 5 years.
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IIRC Not quite from day one of the game, so not five years.
The hero inherents only came in after CoV came with its inherents - before that CoH didn't have inherents iirc. So you could look at it as any inherent, no matter how poor, is a bonus...
Note: I wasn't playing befoe CoV nor before CoH inherents and I'm going off memory, so I may have it off a bit!
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More IIRC, and partly hearsay, but I think the Scrapper and Tanker "inherents" were there from the start, in near enough their current form. Same for khelds, when they came in slightly after the start. They weren't presented as one of a set of special perks, though, just part of the basic capabilities for each particular AT.
It's only when villains arrived with an Inherent per AT that the existing hero specials were rebadged as Inherents, and a few new ones added for Controllers, Blasters and Defenders.
I think.
Edit: Fixed typo. And noticed TheMESS got there first.
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As far as I know the only inherent to have been changed is Defiance because that was a bit poo really. But (and I'm very happy to be corrected here) the other inherents are "as is" - the same from day one.
So that means that they've been going for almost 5 years.
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IIRC Not quite from day one of the game, so not five years.
The hero inherents only came in after CoV came with its inherents - before that CoH didn't have inherents iirc. So you could look at it as any inherent, no matter how poor, is a bonus...
Note: I wasn't playing befoe CoV nor before CoH inherents and I'm going off memory, so I may have it off a bit!
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More IIRC, and partly hearsay, but I think the Scrapper and Tanker "inherents" were there from the start, in near enough their current form. Same for khelds, when they came in slightly after the start. They weren't presented as one of a set of special perks, though, just part of the basic capabilities for each particular AT.
It's only when villains arrived with an Inherent per AT that the existing hero specials were rebadged as Inherents, and a few new ones added Controllers, Blasters and Defenders.
I think.
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Almost, but the Controller Containment was brought in in i5 as part of the "Arrgh, my pets" patch (aka the GDF or whatever they called it). I think Controller Hold Criticals were in from day 1. Blaster and Defender ones were added as part of i6, or soon there after.
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As far as I know the only inherent to have been changed is Defiance because that was a bit poo really.
[/ QUOTE ]And Vigilance isn't?
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But (and I'm very happy to be corrected here) the other inherents are "as is" - the same from day one.
[/ QUOTE ]And I'm very happy to correct you here: Assassination (PvE).
<QR, quoting several different posters>
I can't believe I had to make a new account to post to this, but the amount of misinformation and bad players in this thread is just massive.
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Tanker inherent is either useless or way under-powered. Even if you wade into a mob first and start cracking heads before the teams has moved in, enemies will STILL rip off after that nice squishy blaster and normally pulp them all across the floor. This is low level, before taunt. Once you HAVE taunt, why in the name of all that invulnerable do you NEED the inherent?
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You obviously need everything you can get since you can't play your character right. Holding aggro with just attacks an your aggro arua is [censored] easy, taunt is just there to grab the occasional mob from range.
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I don't think you can take Gauntlet away from Tankers without breaking them in team play. Punchvoking and holding enemies with Mud Pots etc only work because Gauntlet makes all Tanker powers Taunt. Without this, enemies simply flock to the first blaster that hits them with an AoE. (As the Blaster's damage makes the Tanker's look feeble.)
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Actually, all Gauntlet does is give you a fancy icon in your buff tray. The taunt effect is built straight into your powers. The same applies to Cont/Corr/Scrap/Stalk inherets.
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taunt limit. (16 IIRC)
[/ QUOTE ]The aggro cap is 17 mobs, the AoE cap for taunt is 5.
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To a certain extent this is as much the failing of the Blaster as it is the Taunt effect. In my experience it's a common delusion that Taunt is an absolute effect.
[/ QUOTE ]If the tank doesn't suck [censored], it is an absolute effect, or at least close enough that the few mobs that might occasionally break free aren't a threat to the rest of the group.
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Sorry. Got a bit carried away earlier. First of all, I should confess that my only tank is a Stone/Energy. I suspect Mud Pots is one of the better powers for holding aggro. (It's an auto-hit toggle.) I should have remembered that other combinations might behave very differently.
[/ QUOTE ]Every tank primary has at least one aggro aura. In the case of Invul, it's Invincibility.
I hadn't realized how much the level of these boards had fallen until I saw this thread and that nobody was correcting all these blatantly ignorant posts. I guess I might as well completely give up on reading these soon.
Please take into account willpower tanks. They're allowed to lose agro due to a poor aura. Other tanks should have no excuse. In most situations Ice and Inv dont need to attack to hold agro if they actually think about positioning but one AoE at their threat level on top of the aura and nothing much should drag attention away. Remember to wait that whole second for the tick.
Having said about WP tanks mine can hold agro by simply spamming combustion so the taunt aspect of the tank attacks is just fine. If a WP can hold agro any tank failing is just taking up space on the team that could be filled by some thing else. Or someone not on the mission for that matter
"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"
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I hadn't realized how much the level of these boards had fallen
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Yes, we have anonymous posters now 
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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<QR, quoting several different posters>
I can't believe I had to make a new account to post to this, but the amount of misinformation and bad players in this thread is just massive.
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Tanker inherent is either useless or way under-powered. Even if you wade into a mob first and start cracking heads before the teams has moved in, enemies will STILL rip off after that nice squishy blaster and normally pulp them all across the floor. This is low level, before taunt. Once you HAVE taunt, why in the name of all that invulnerable do you NEED the inherent?
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You obviously need everything you can get since you can't play your character right. Holding aggro with just attacks an your aggro arua is [censored] easy, taunt is just there to grab the occasional mob from range.
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I don't think you can take Gauntlet away from Tankers without breaking them in team play. Punchvoking and holding enemies with Mud Pots etc only work because Gauntlet makes all Tanker powers Taunt. Without this, enemies simply flock to the first blaster that hits them with an AoE. (As the Blaster's damage makes the Tanker's look feeble.)
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Actually, all Gauntlet does is give you a fancy icon in your buff tray. The taunt effect is built straight into your powers. The same applies to Cont/Corr/Scrap/Stalk inherets.
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taunt limit. (16 IIRC)
[/ QUOTE ]The aggro cap is 17 mobs, the AoE cap for taunt is 5.
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To a certain extent this is as much the failing of the Blaster as it is the Taunt effect. In my experience it's a common delusion that Taunt is an absolute effect.
[/ QUOTE ]If the tank doesn't suck [censored], it is an absolute effect, or at least close enough that the few mobs that might occasionally break free aren't a threat to the rest of the group.
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Sorry. Got a bit carried away earlier. First of all, I should confess that my only tank is a Stone/Energy. I suspect Mud Pots is one of the better powers for holding aggro. (It's an auto-hit toggle.) I should have remembered that other combinations might behave very differently.
[/ QUOTE ]Every tank primary has at least one aggro aura. In the case of Invul, it's Invincibility.
I hadn't realized how much the level of these boards had fallen until I saw this thread and that nobody was correcting all these blatantly ignorant posts. I guess I might as well completely give up on reading these soon.
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Nice you turn up claim to be a old player but choose the board name retiredplayer instead of your old board name (or something close)
As your a old player when was the last time you played? holding aggro with your attacks and aura is not easy the aggro generated by these wares of pretty quickly and as some one pointed out once its off and the mob is locked on a higher damaging AT its very difficult to pull it back off.
yes it may be built into the power but its still classed as the ATs inherent and could be removed.
so the taunt cap is 5 that makes it even worse 8 man team spawns are normally over 5 on heroic never mind any other difficulty there for taunt is even more useless
taunt is not a absolute effect and can be over come by a high damage AT with IOs allowing blasters to reach even higher amounts of damage its even easier and as i said earlier once you loose a mob they tend to stay lost unless you can plant a taunt on them of course this means stopping taunting those that surround you
yes every tank has a taunt aura some even have more than one but not all taunt auras are equil.
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I hadn't realized how much the level of these boards had fallen
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Yes, we have anonymous posters now
[/ QUOTE ]Pseudonymous, technically, just like we've always had.
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I hadn't realized how much the level of these boards had fallen
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Yes, we have anonymous posters now
[/ QUOTE ]Pseudonymous, technically, just like we've always had.
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You could just use a variation on your original name
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Nice you turn up claim to be a old player but choose the board name retiredplayer instead of your old board name (or something close)
[/ QUOTE ]Now where would the fun in that be?
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As your a old player when was the last time you played? holding aggro with your attacks and aura is not easy the aggro generated by these wares of pretty quickly and as some one pointed out once its off and the mob is locked on a higher damaging AT its very difficult to pull it back off.
[/ QUOTE ]I12, and it's quite easy, you just need to either stay mobile or learn to lock down groups.
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yes it may be built into the power but its still classed as the ATs inherent and could be removed.
[/ QUOTE ]Yes, however removing Gauntlet (as in the power) itself would have no effect.
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so the taunt cap is 5 that makes it even worse 8 man team spawns are normally over 5 on heroic never mind any other difficulty there for taunt is even more useless
[/ QUOTE ]Taunt's AoE cap is quite insignificant since you should be using your aura as your main group aggro tool anyway. And apparently you don't even understand how notoriety works, Heroic spawns are just as large as those on rugged and invincible.
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taunt is not a absolute effect and can be over come by a high damage AT with IOs allowing blasters to reach even higher amounts of damage its even easier and as i said earlier once you loose a mob they tend to stay lost unless you can plant a taunt on them of course this means stopping taunting those that surround you
[/ QUOTE ]If you were able to deal out enough damage to overcome the taunt multiplier you would be killing AV's in a few hits. It's not technically a binary effect, but it practically might as well be (At least in the blaster vs tank scenario, assuming blaster doesn't have Provoke or Challenge). And taunt duration, even unslotted on your aura, is more than long enough to allow grabbing stray mobs without losing your current aggro.
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yes every tank has a taunt aura some even have more than one but not all taunt auras are equil.
[/ QUOTE ]With the exception of Willpower (which you should never be rolling for a serious team tank anyway), they're all more than sufficient, although fire does suffer slightly from the ToHit requirement.
AFAIK, Taunt is a debuff that multiplies the agro you cause towards the afflicted mobs depending on its magnitude (inconsistent display of attributes in-game: Every 100% of Taunt is 1 point of magnitude). What the actual formula is, I can't remember, but I think it's on the wiki somewhere.
I'm not a hundred per cent sure on this, of course.
A Tanker that attacks and uses Taunt and a taunt aura can easily keep agro.
A Tanker that can -easily- keep agro while neglecting one or two of the above methods is probably on a low-damage team.
An underestimated aspect of agro management is the fact that the first player that the mob in question notices gains a set amount of starting agro versus the mob, thus it is wise to let the tank do the pulling.
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thus it is wise to throw the tank in first
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thus it is wise to throw the tank in first
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Shield tanker, lvl 10 or just below. Running in first, check. Hitting, check. Explain why a mob STILL runs away?
My main Hero and my only blueside 50 was a tanker. I remember with him that, until taunt, aggro was not as guarenteed as you claim it to be.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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thats because retiredplayer is trolling i dont care what the maths says should happen its not what happens in game
and im claiming this as a non retired player who still plays tanks
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thats because retiredplayer is trolling i dont care what the maths says should happen its not what happens in game
and im claiming this as a non retired player who still plays tanks
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Agreed.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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thats because retiredplayer is trolling i dont care what the maths says should happen its not what happens in game
and im claiming this as a non retired player who still plays tanks
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Agreed.
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He may not be retired
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Defenders inherit power: For every PCC in a 20ft radius of yourself, you gain a %endurance discount.
Isnt what your looking for unfortunately in terms of solo ability, but would be more usefull than the current version.
@Damz Find me on the global channel Union Chat. One of the best "chat channels" ingame!
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To a certain extent this is as much the failing of the Blaster as it is the Taunt effect. In my experience it's a common delusion that Taunt is an absolute effect. This results in Blasters throwing the kitchen sink at a mob and then being suprised when they suddenly get a close up view to the local flooring.
Some blasters need to learn how to start off with less conspicuous attacks and build up to unleashing their big hitters. Even Defiance, in its current form, supports this strategy.
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While yes to a certain extent yes i suppose it is partially the blasters fault the fact that the blaster can override the aggro generated by CoHs meat shield AT just proves to me that tanks no longer do what they were supposed to do.
on thinking about it i'm reminded of something one of the devs once posted (could have been bab but I'm not sure) tanks were originally viewed as the heavy hitters where scrappers were the keep on fighting brigade so basically scrappers scrapped and could do it for long periods of time while tankers delivered a massive spike of damage.
While to a degree this is still true some tanks can still deliver that spike of damage the line between that and a scrappers constant damage has become very blurred most scrappers can now deliver a constant high lvl of damage far surpassing what a tank can bring at the cost of slightly lower defensive values. and with the proliferation of power sets the line between the to is becoming more and more blurred till the point i believe where a tank will be forgotten in favor of a scrapper (or even a brute if the switching sides system go's ahead)
So i would love to see tanks completely overhauled making them a true force with a team instead of a glorified shield.