Time for a change on Heroes side?

Wow i like that suggestion, would be really simple just remove the flag.
Praf + cols was also good.

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While yes to a certain extent yes i suppose it is partially the blasters fault the fact that the blaster can override the aggro generated by CoHs meat shield AT just proves to me that tanks no longer do what they were supposed to do.

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I'm fairly sure that a tank can only lose aggro to a damage toon if the mob is no longer Taunted. There might be an exception for AVs which allow the damage toon to build up a lot of threat. Paragon wiki has an article with the threat calculation. So as long as the Tanker maintains taunt he holds aggro.

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You can't build up threat - its calculated seperately for each and every attack - its not cumulative.
Also it is possible to pull a taunted mob off of a tank but not easy. - An extreme damage attack at short range - e.g. a nova may succeed in pulling aggro from the tank where there is little duration left on the taunt and it is taunted at extreme range - in practice its unlikely to be an issue due to the 1000x threat multiplier that taunt applies no to mention that that attack has probably just defeated the mob in any event.
Also the 3rd way to pull aggro off of the tank was missed - someone else can taunt them off.

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Mind of Gaia lvl 50 Defiant's first Mind/Storm 'troller.
Deadly Doc 50 Dark/Dark Corr
and lots more on Pinnacle,Union and Defiant

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Shield tanker, lvl 10 or just below. Running in first, check. Hitting, check. Explain why a mob STILL runs away?

[/ QUOTE ]Either you're not running your aura, or it's as useless as RttC (which CoD would suggest it is). Can't say since I quit at I12 and never tested shields.

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My main Hero and my only blueside 50 was a tanker. I remember with him that, until taunt, aggro was not as guarenteed as you claim it to be.

[/ QUOTE ]What type of tank?

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thats because retiredplayer is trolling i dont care what the maths says should happen its not what happens in game

[/ QUOTE ]If you fail at applying those maths properly, then yes.

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and im claiming this as a non retired player who still plays tanks

[/ QUOTE ] What makes you think that?

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If sheild is as poor as WP then you can include that in the mix. However this is still by far the easiest MMO to hold agro in, the other 5 tank primaries should be able to hold agro for most teams with just the agro aura running (hell an Ice could probably go AFK and not lose any) and one AoE attack hitting will out agro anything else the team can throw.

This is from someone still playing, who has tanked to level 50 and played since euro launch. Sure when Taunt was uncapped it was easier, but it is still no trauma to hold agro with at least 5 of the tank primaries. An Inv scrapper may cause dificulties for non inv and ice tanks agro wise because the Inv aura is that damned good even scaled for a scrapper but one AoE from the tank should pull it back. Threat is easy for a tank to gain in this game.

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"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"

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You can't build up threat - its calculated seperately for each and every attack - its not cumulative.

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Thanks for pointing that out. I've been wondering for a while which way it worked.

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Also the 3rd way to pull aggro off of the tank was missed - someone else can taunt them off.

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Very true. I was assuming we were talking about squishies that don't want aggro but if the squishy really wants aggro then I'm happy to share.

If you've got two tanks then you can play mob ping pong. Start with two tanks about 70 feet apart. The first tank taunts a mob which must now run towards it. The second tank taunts the mob just before it reaches the first tank. Rinse, repeat.

Works best with slow, melee mobs. Can also be played by a tank and blaster. Enjoy!

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Based on my experience of playing Defenders I've found:

On teams Defenders are fine in general, they serve their purpose well and I've never found Vigilance particularly useful.

Solo it's a different story, the damage is generally too low and dependent on the Defender combo, mitigation not as good as it could be.
Endurance becomes a problem also as you spam attacks while running toggles etc to mitigate incoming damage.

My idea to help resolve the issue would be to give Defenders an inherent called Focus.
This means that in a team the Defender operates as is - minus the vigilance Endurance reward.

When out of a team he is able to Focus his Primary powers on himself more effectively rather than diffuse them over the team and as such all his self effecting powers have a boost and an Endurance reduction.
For example on a a Rad/ - AM has a % boost to Damage End etc, RI % boost and so on.
FF/ Dispersion bubble has a defence increase.

The powers still function as before and some Defenders will still solo better than others but all should solo better with Focus than Vigilance.
As the boost is only applied when solo it would also stop all Defender teams self stacking for even more uberness than they currently do.

That's my two pennies worth anyway.

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L50s: Tanks: Cryofission - Ice/EM - Dr Celsius - Fire/Ice - Saint George - SD/SS | Controllers: Psichosis - Ill/Kin - Major Chaos - Ill/Stm | Scrappers - Neutron Crusader - DM/SR

Currently Levelling: Angelic Blade - BS/WP Scrapper | Seeds of Destruction - Plant/Kin Controller

My point is inherent are supposed to help the AT do there job and at one time the tanks job was to hold agro while his team mates "arrested" the mob.

However i personally believe that roll is no longer as valid as it once was teams can be hard to come by meaning that the tank becomes slow to play and in the case of some power combinations almost impossible to play.

tanks no longer have that great amount of spike damage and are in-fact probably the least damaging of all the hero ATs even tho according to there description they should be medium damage.

amongst the melee ATs there by far the worst and if crossing sides ever happens i can see tanks becoming near extinct because solo a brute performs better and in a team with just a few buffs (hell some don't even need the buffs) are as good defence wise as a tank and who need aggro holding when you can smash entire spawns before the team even catch up.

invention sets have closed the gap between ATs low lvls of defence and resistance can be had quite easily adding survivability to what were once considered squishy ATs and while extra damage can be picked up as well tanks damage is so low to begin with it makes little difference

It is mainly for these reasons that i believe tanks need looking at and altering there inherent power would be a start.

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As the boost is only applied when solo it would also stop all Defender teams self stacking for even more uberness than they currently do.


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My experience of all (and virtually all) defender teams suggests that vigilance is even less use there than it is in PuGs/mixed teams. It certainly doesn't seem to be their inherent that grants them 'uberness'.

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As the boost is only applied when solo it would also stop all Defender teams self stacking for even more uberness than they currently do.


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My experience of all (and virtually all) defender teams suggests that vigilance is even less use there than it is in PuGs/mixed teams. It certainly doesn't seem to be their inherent that grants them 'uberness'.

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You misunderstood me, I'm not saying that Vigilance gives any uberness at all - what I'm saying is that a buff that also applied when teamed would take all Defender teams (Rad/ in particular) to astronomical levels.

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L50s: Tanks: Cryofission - Ice/EM - Dr Celsius - Fire/Ice - Saint George - SD/SS | Controllers: Psichosis - Ill/Kin - Major Chaos - Ill/Stm | Scrappers - Neutron Crusader - DM/SR

Currently Levelling: Angelic Blade - BS/WP Scrapper | Seeds of Destruction - Plant/Kin Controller

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If you've got two tanks then you can play mob ping pong. Start with two tanks about 70 feet apart. The first tank taunts a mob which must now run towards it. The second tank taunts the mob just before it reaches the first tank. Rinse, repeat.

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You know I have never been able to do that. When my tanker taunts things they run to him and stay there. Other tankers have commented on how they can't peel enemies off me. I do slot taunt and taunt aura powers with 3 durations which may be the deciding thing, however as I understood it you can peel enemies off tankers by overriding the taunt.

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On teams Defenders are fine in general, they serve their purpose well and I've never found Vigilance particularly useful.

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Same here. Although the defender I have played the most is an empath, which negates the power completely. If I do my job well it remains at 0% boost, if I do a bad job extra endurance is not going to help.

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Defender wise, how about a domination type inherent which gives +dam, +def, and +res for the defender, plus a smaller boost for the whole team?

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My MA IDs:
Fiend Space: 211464

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If you've got two tanks then you can play mob ping pong. Start with two tanks about 70 feet apart. The first tank taunts a mob which must now run towards it. The second tank taunts the mob just before it reaches the first tank. Rinse, repeat.

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As far as I was aware from reading wiki once something is hit by taunt then effectively it is taunted until the end of the taunt duration. So this would only work if the taunt duration lasted exactly until the mob reached the tank, otherwise the first taunt would still win the tug of war. When the first tanks taunt ran out (Assuming he didn't hit the mob, taunt it or have his taunt aura) then the mob would run to the 2nd tank.

The only time a tank should lose aggro is when ranged mobs wont come into the aura and you havent got enough time to taunt them all into range before the squishies open up on them. As mentioned you can only taunt 5 at a time so you may have 5 in aura range that will stay there, 5 taunted on one side of you and then maybe can't taunt the 5 on the other side until taunt is back up which could be 5 seconds. So in those 5 seconds you have 5 mobs quite ready to attack the first person who hits it.

Of course even then you could move to get those 5 into taunt aura range, but granite is too slow to get there and RttC will stop taunting mobs the seconds they leave aura range so the 5 that were in aura range would become untanted again. Other tanks should have no problems with this tactic (Not sure about shield).

Once again getting back onto the real topic:

I really like the idea of tanks being able to cause more damage on mobs affected by gauntlet because the AT description does say tanks should be able to cause medium damage, and some just can't. I didn't quite understand what was being said in my last post.

I also like the idea of defenders getting a damage boost (Say 50%) when the whole team is healthy, and that could drop to 0% when the team is under 50% total health. You could even add this in on top of the existing end discount, so you can cause damage at the start, then try and save the team when it all goes bad, though you may have to drop the damage bonus to 25% if you had both.

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As mentioned you can only taunt 5 at a time so you may have 5 in aura range that will stay there, 5 taunted on one side of you and then maybe can't taunt the 5 on the other side until taunt is back up which could be 5 seconds. So in those 5 seconds you have 5 mobs quite ready to attack the first person who hits it.

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that's not entirely true while yes taunt works of 5 targets your aura works differently as it makes use of gauntlet (at least the damage ones do non damage auto hits may work different)) what this means is for every mob hit by a tick that mob and X mobs (i believe its 5 tho one can be the original target) are taunted so in theory your taunt/damage aura can taunt a lot of foes but its reliant on it hitting a target and considering that gauntlet taunt last only .75 it doesn't hold things for long.

Back on topic.

I'm not sure how a dominator style click power would work what would charge it?

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A clicky for a Defender just doesnt sound right.
For tanks, maybe have something like the old defiance on blasters, but that added +def and +res. With a tanker doing a heroic last stand, it would make a lot more sense, rather than a squishy having something like that.
So, say at half health the Tanker starts getting the bonus, maybe a bit before. By the time he's down to a few centimetres of health, the whole mob will we swinging away and doing very little, trying to take them down.

I see that as fitting in more with the tank AT. Team-wipe, bar a healer and a tank. Tank does his invincible moment while the healer gets the team back on its feet. Both more useful and thematic.

And yes, Tankers do even less damage than defenders. Or it sure seems like it. -sigh-

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You misunderstood me, I'm not saying that Vigilance gives any uberness at all - what I'm saying is that a buff that also applied when teamed would take all Defender teams (Rad/ in particular) to astronomical levels.

[/ QUOTE ]Any half-decent all-defender team is going to have nearly capped endurance constantly, so making vigilance also give a boost based on your own HP would have absolutely no effect on them.

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As far as I was aware from reading wiki once something is hit by taunt then effectively it is taunted until the end of the taunt duration. So this would only work if the taunt duration lasted exactly until the mob reached the tank, otherwise the first taunt would still win the tug of war.

[/ QUOTE ] Actually, you can overcome an existing taunt by applying a taunt effect that's twice its size.

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The only time a tank should lose aggro is when ranged mobs wont come into the aura and you havent got enough time to taunt them all into range before the squishies open up on them. As mentioned you can only taunt 5 at a time so you may have 5 in aura range that will stay there, 5 taunted on one side of you and then maybe can't taunt the 5 on the other side until taunt is back up which could be 5 seconds. So in those 5 seconds you have 5 mobs quite ready to attack the first person who hits it.

Of course even then you could move to get those 5 into taunt aura range, but granite is too slow to get there and RttC will stop taunting mobs the seconds they leave aura range so the 5 that were in aura range would become untanted again. Other tanks should have no problems with this tactic (Not sure about shield).

[/ QUOTE ]This is why you take teleport as a stone tank, and don't roll a WP for serious tanking. Not that you should roll a stone for that either, really.

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that's not entirely true while yes taunt works of 5 targets your aura works differently as it makes use of gauntlet

[/ QUOTE ]Gauntlet=Taunt. There is no cap of 5 foes taunted, simply an AoE cap of 5 foes hit on one use on the Taunt power.

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You misunderstood me, I'm not saying that Vigilance gives any uberness at all - what I'm saying is that a buff that also applied when teamed would take all Defender teams (Rad/ in particular) to astronomical levels.

[/ QUOTE ]Any half-decent all-defender team is going to have nearly capped endurance constantly, so making vigilance also give a boost based on your own HP would have absolutely no effect on them.

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Only if there one of the defender sets that have a endurance boosting power.

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And yes, Tankers do even less damage than defenders. Or it sure seems like it. -sigh-

[/ QUOTE ]Entirely dependant on powerset choices and build.

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You misunderstood me, I'm not saying that Vigilance gives any uberness at all - what I'm saying is that a buff that also applied when teamed would take all Defender teams (Rad/ in particular) to astronomical levels.

[/ QUOTE ]Any half-decent all-defender team is going to have nearly capped endurance constantly, so making vigilance also give a boost based on your own HP would have absolutely no effect on them.

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Only if there one of the defender sets that have a endurance boosting power.

[/ QUOTE ] Bolded the important part for you.

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that's not entirely true while yes taunt works of 5 targets your aura works differently as it makes use of gauntlet

[/ QUOTE ]Gauntlet=Taunt. There is no cap of 5 foes taunted, simply an AoE cap of 5 foes hit on one use on the Taunt power.

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Um no it doesn't they are different powers gauntlet has a much shorter duration than the taunt power for a start

by your logic brawl is the same power as total focus cause there both melee attacks

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And yes, Tankers do even less damage than defenders. Or it sure seems like it. -sigh-

[/ QUOTE ]Entirely dependant on powerset choices and build.

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Invul/Em. Taken all the Invul powers and all of the Em powers, bar stun. Also have air superiority, laser eyes and focussed acc.
Seeing as hes at lvl 50 now, in PvE hes not too shabby. Im ignoring PvP on him for now, possibly for a long time (more fool me for vanilla slotting a second build)
Admittedly, damage output is not meant to be a tank defining feature. But calling it Medium damage is a bit generous.

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that's not entirely true while yes taunt works of 5 targets your aura works differently as it makes use of gauntlet

[/ QUOTE ]Gauntlet=Taunt. There is no cap of 5 foes taunted, simply an AoE cap of 5 foes hit on one use on the Taunt power.

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Um no it doesn't they are different powers gauntlet has a much shorter duration than the taunt power for a start

by your logic brawl is the same power as total focus cause there both melee attacks

[/ QUOTE ]They're not the same, but they're both damage powers, since they share the same effect, even if in different quantities. Your post made it seem as if the game engine has an effect called gauntlet that somehow works differently from taunt, which is simply false.

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You should easily rival most defenders for ST damage assuming you've slotted your /NRG powers. In AoE damage you're going to suck of course, but a set like /fire would do well in that.

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You should easily rival most defenders for ST damage assuming you've slotted your /NRG powers. In AoE damage you're going to suck of course, but a set like /fire would do well in that.

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I'd consider Tanks and Defenders to be, in general, roughly the same in their damage output. Obviously there'll be exceptions either way.

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