i13 Live PvP changes

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Not wanting to, or not having the time to farm yourself to glory doesn't make someone lazy, some people simply dislike that style of play.

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Its not about farming yourself to glory, both my pvp toons were good before i spent the inf on them in the old system you didnt need a pimped out toon to be good at pvp.

IOs and sets dont make for a good pvper time, learning and skill does, so when i say "lazy" what is mean is the people who would go into RV with a dam good pve build thinking that will rock only to find they dont then moan about it.

This does happen as its what happened to me first time i went into RV, my blaster was great at pve and dam was i [censored] when i got whooped over and over again, now from this point it goes one of two ways.

1. That player thinks right im not haveing that done to me again and then spends time and effort into making sure it doesnt, this is donw by hard work and messing around with your build not by who has the better sets as i can tell you i didnt have abit of inf to start with my pvp toons all started with SOs and IOs. Or

2.That player thinks to himself this is just to hard how am i suppose to match a stalker who i cant see when im standing there, everything is over powered its not fair.

Now to me the pvp system has been changed to please the moaning voice on these and the usa forums, these people dont want to take time to learn how to pvp they will just cry out "not fair" i cant afford xyz IO so i cant pvp everyone who has them can only beat me as they have pimped out toons and they farm......WRONG they beat you as they have spent months and months fighitng in pvp learning how to play there toon in that enviroment.

The new system has now given these players pvp on a plate, anyone who has a pimped out build has been shafted by these changes. PVP will now come down to who can make the new fotm and i will happen but when it does all the "its not fair " crowd will back o nthe forums moaning again that xyz is over powered until pvp will just become a waste of time in the game.

At the end of the day its about skill not IOs they use to just help you when fighting other pimped out toons, these new changes have been done to get more into pvp but i just dont see it happing its still early days though and if loads more do take part that will be great news, but these new players must learn to pvp and if they get beaten and they will make sure you keep at it dont go of moaning about IOs and farming as that will no longer be any reason to be beaten.

I have tried to pvp with these changes and while my maxed out toons are no longer a shade of there former selfs i can still win but its just not any fun any more .

I too can also see the point of buffs getting nerfed as well as debuffs getting equally nerfed, i just don't see the point of decaying heals, it has effectively made my own empath become somewhat flaccid since whats the point of healing someone or even myself since if its just going to do a +46 heal after repeated heals (no im not joking my heal aura went as low as that ) oh well suppose i can take hypernoob or phaseshift now that dual builds are out...

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After some fighting in union RV, I have to say that I like how the changes affect large-scale zone pvp. Since people dont die instantly its more enjoyable as a whole and feels more immersive too. Suppression seems to work ok as well, although I noticed lots of people didnt like it.

However, Im sure serious 1v1 is going to be blown to hell. And I wont take pvp seriously anymore.

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I think the devs would prefer massed battles to duels - all the changes seem to be geared towards team vs team.

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Its not about farming yourself to glory, both my pvp toons were good before i spent the inf on them in the old system you didnt need a pimped out toon to be good at pvp.

IOs and sets dont make for a good pvper time, learning and skill does, so when i say "lazy" what is mean is the people who would go into RV with a dam good pve build thinking that will rock only to find they dont then moan about it.

This does happen as its what happened to me first time i went into RV, my blaster was great at pve and dam was i [censored] when i got whooped over and over again, now from this point it goes one of two ways.

1. That player thinks right im not haveing that done to me again and then spends time and effort into making sure it doesnt, this is donw by hard work and messing around with your build not by who has the better sets as i can tell you i didnt have abit of inf to start with my pvp toons all started with SOs and IOs. Or

2.That player thinks to himself this is just to hard how am i suppose to match a stalker who i cant see when im standing there, everything is over powered its not fair.

Now to me the pvp system has been changed to please the moaning voice on these and the usa forums, these people dont want to take time to learn how to pvp they will just cry out "not fair" i cant afford xyz IO so i cant pvp everyone who has them can only beat me as they have pimped out toons and they farm......WRONG they beat you as they have spent months and months fighitng in pvp learning how to play there toon in that enviroment.

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That's 100% spot on how it is and how it was.


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I have tried to pvp with these changes and while my maxed out toons are no longer a shade of there former selfs i can still win but its just not any fun any more

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Same here..... I can still quite easily kill any person i like, even on a pathetic ice blaster but all the fun, speed and thrills have gone. They've made PvP feel like PvE to me.

Old PvP was my "end game" content, something i could never complete and was never the same thing. There was always someone or something new to come along and surprise me which kept me on my toes.

New PvP seems like once i learn all the new things it's going to get very old, very fast.

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IOs and sets dont make for a good pvper time, learning and skill does

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Sorry for misreading you. I thought your complaint was that the IO's I assumed you have slotted are now less effective, or something along those lines.
While taking the time to learn will go some way to improving the players experience, I do feel that some sets had a much steeper learning curve than others, and that something had to be done. Whether things are any better now I don't know, I haven't decided yet.

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After some fighting in union RV, I have to say that I like how the changes affect large-scale zone pvp. Since people dont die instantly its more enjoyable as a whole and feels more immersive too. Suppression seems to work ok as well, although I noticed lots of people didnt like it.

However, Im sure serious 1v1 is going to be blown to hell. And I wont take pvp seriously anymore.

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PvP2=Phase or die

Just as messy as it was on test.
Gonna have another go in RV tonight. Respec some toons for pvp2.0 and see if it is any better.
Ie. spec out all the now useless powers - Offensive auras, instant healing, PFF and some of the tier9s.
Obviously I'll finally have to take phase after previously avoiding as I always felt it was a cheap power.

And the mobs are now insultingly powerful. I stood in a bunch of lb yesterday and waited for a stalker to attack. He died almost instantly after the AS. Funny in a sad way.

Make or break for me tho. My sub is up tomorrow and unless I suddenly see some light at the end of the tunnel its the end for me

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Make or break for me tho. My sub is up tomorrow and unless I suddenly see some light at the end of the tunnel its the end for me


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I already personally know of 30 accounts already cancelled due to these changes so that will make 31.

One PvP'er being mardy and leaving because of a change is understandably something NC can shrug off, 30+ on the other hand is something i personally think they should be concerned about seeing as that is basicly the entire EU PvP population.

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Make or break for me tho. My sub is up tomorrow and unless I suddenly see some light at the end of the tunnel its the end for me


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I already personally know of 30 accounts already cancelled due to these changes so that will make 31.

One PvP'er being mardy and leaving because of a change is understandably something NC can shrug off, 30+ on the other hand is something i personally think they should be concerned about seeing as that is basicly the entire EU PvP population.

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And Charnell is one of the reasonable, non ranting people.

When those sort of people leave, it's time to take note.

This might not be popular but I like the new changes.

I play a Force field / Archery defender on Union in RV alot, for a very long time I've had to rely on many underhanded tricks for kills (pillboxes, heavies, longbow mobs), or just be satisfied with being really hard to kill in my personal force field.

Tonight even with the heroes outnumbered I went out and got 5 kills in about half an hour, all brutes and stalkers, before now I could have spent a good couple of minutes shooting a petless mastermind to kill them and now I can go out there with my non-billion influence build and make a tangible difference.

The pvp changes get a thumbs up from me.

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This might not be popular but I like the new changes.

I play a Force field / Archery defender on Union in RV alot, for a very long time I've had to rely on many underhanded tricks for kills (pillboxes, heavies, longbow mobs), or just be satisfied with being really hard to kill in my personal force field.

Tonight even with the heroes outnumbered I went out and got 5 kills in about half an hour, all brutes and stalkers, before now I could have spent a good couple of minutes shooting a petless mastermind to kill them and now I can go out there with my non-billion influence build and make a tangible difference.

The pvp changes get a thumbs up from me.

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So your happy with the changes because they've made you good without time or effort?

The exact reason why the PvP vets are annoyed.

Difficulty and effort are not factors for me.

Win or lose I could have fun before. Epic suppression + diminishing returns = epicly suppressed + diminished fun tbh

It just feels like the unique fun aspect of PvP has gone, but it's not like me whining will make any difference, it will still get translated to me being overpowered before or some [censored]...

Still, a forum is for conveying opinions and you can count mine conveyed.

Out of interest. How much time/effort do you think it would take for someone to get good at pvp on a FF/Archery defender before I13?

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Out of interest. How much time/effort do you think it would take for someone to get good at pvp on a FF/Archery defender before I13?

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Depends how you measure "good at pvp".

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Ie. spec out all the now useless powers - Offensive auras, instant healing, PFF and some of the tier9s.

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Dunno about you but I had fun tonight in union RV,being vastly outnumbered but had basically a full villain team hammering my PFF trying to get through (having power boost does help, though). They couldnt do it unless I opened it up to attack (it cant be dropped without end-drain after all). So without teammates basically I used heavy with goto_aggressive, lounging longbow and other things to have a chance to sneak in few kills, which I did. I no longer could kill a squishy with 3 hits, but overall I enjoyed this new experience.

Having a character survive longer gives more superhero feeling compared to the earlier pvp which was kind of out-of-place in this game after all.

ps. I did die more than I got kills but that was to be expected at those odds.

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This might not be popular but I like the new changes.

I play a Force field / Archery defender on Union in RV alot, for a very long time I've had to rely on many underhanded tricks for kills (pillboxes, heavies, longbow mobs), or just be satisfied with being really hard to kill in my personal force field.

Tonight even with the heroes outnumbered I went out and got 5 kills in about half an hour, all brutes and stalkers, before now I could have spent a good couple of minutes shooting a petless mastermind to kill them and now I can go out there with my non-billion influence build and make a tangible difference.

The pvp changes get a thumbs up from me.

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Proves my point about pvp now being given to people like you on a plate.

Only had a small tester in RV with my pve build on ultimate damz and gotta agree i LIKE the changes. I wont ever be a hardcore pvper but least now im more inclined to pop in once in a while.

Naw thats me.
I respecd my fire/fire tanker into a pvp 2.0 spec. ie. similar to a blaster: ranged attacks being main part of attack chain, lower resists than a blaster, more hp.

Then had a few fights. Dominators are completely laughable. Got a few kills but ended up playing like a blaster. Its just wrong.

I love the way Devs have balanced fly by making it uber.

Tbh i just got [censored] of with the mobs in the zone. That isnt fun. Truthfully they were annoying before but now i find them unbearable. Anytime anything remotely fun starts to happen your enemy runs you through some mobs and you just get hammered and mezzed.

Well im not gonna list all the things I dont like. My account will probably run out before i finish anyway.
This just doesnt feel like fun anymore to me.

Ty to all you ppl who have fought alongside and against me in SC and RV. Well the few who are still active.

See you in Champions Online :P

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Only had a small tester in RV with my pve build on ultimate damz and gotta agree i LIKE the changes. I wont ever be a hardcore pvper but least now im more inclined to pop in once in a while.

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Think you will find that you will be the new pvp hard core along with others like you seeing as how most if not all the "old" hard core have left it

That's a shame Charnell. I know we've not always got on but any PvP'er leaving is really lame.

If you do choose to leave then have fun with whatever you decide to do.

Always a shame to see a player leave because of unpopular features, All the best, I'm sure some of us will see you in Millenium City Charnell, don't forget to recreate your toons so we can all recognise you.

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This just doesnt feel like fun anymore to me.

See you in Champions Online :P

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Our Devs are great at listening to the player-base, but I'm beginning to think they are also spectaculary bad at admitting or even acknowledging they may of got it wrong.
Now while its too soon to lump recent frustration with the complete redux of PvP into that appraisal, I'll go with this one instead:

#Exhibit A: Hamidon Revisited#
How many attempts at Hamidon since the redux?, how many?...

4?
5?

Most definately under 10. And this is supposed to be a real memorable level fifty community experience. Have the Devs looked at tweaking it back the way everyone enjoyed it?, or are they content with ignoring what I imagine are the shameful statistics of raids per week since the redux?....

...
... even heard anything from the Devs recently about the Hami raids or lack thereof?
...
...
...
...
...
... thought so.

Comon guys, as of next spring and 2010 respectively we are not going to be the only kid on the block and you are setting yourselves up for a fall.

to be honest with you there ML I think the figures are being marred by concentrating soley on the US.

There are some servers which still do weekly Hamidon Raids which may leave them thinking that the Hamidon Redux is acceptable. Meanwhile EU side, I don't think I've ever seen a Hamidon raid formulated as a plan/event get off the ground (hmm there was one organised through UBH but this was a long time ago now and it failed to beat Hamidon).

One suggestion, which came about from Lighthouse's post (The changes weren't FOR the oldschool PvPers and they knew that the changes would peeve them off something horrid but it was for getting new people into PvP) was that the Devs are simply thinking that the older PvPers will disappear and be replaced by a fresh batch...

...the problem with this is that there was a topic asking people that didn't PvP if they would PvP with the changes, it was a resounding NO! from a good 99% of the people who posted in the topic (which ran to 10+ pages I believe). So there simply wont be the new influx of PvPers that they apparently thought there would be.

While this isn't to the scale of NGE that happened with Star Wars Galaxies (that game has never recovered from that...and atleast Issue 13 didn't completely invalidate an expanion pack only 2 days old like the NGE did) there is something seriously wrong if there is a mass exodus of PvPers.

EUside we lost pretty much all of our PvPers or atleast a lot which made up the 'heart and soul' of the PvP community and as such there's probably five or so hardcore PvPers left which post on the forums.

USside they also lost a lot of their community and something like 1000 accounts (most PvPers have 3+ accounts).

What angered most USside PvPers is that Lighthouse had made a topic called the 'pvp wishlist' to which most PvPers responded with suggestions to alter the current PvP, make it more new player friendly, which bugs needed ironing out etc. and it was completely ignored, tossed aside in favor of the devs version of PvP 2.0.

Most PvPers asked why on earth should they have bothered making a list of everything wrong with the current PvP system if it was simply going to be ignored.

I have to agree with you ML, both Team Leads past and current (Statesman and Positron) both have real trouble admitting when they've done something wrong. Statesman was woefully inept at listening to the players and had to have the game progress under his vision (you play the way I want you to play) while Positron listens to players and will tailor things with regards their conscerns but he simply wont admit that there are things wrong with his Ideas.

Merits, the problem with them is that encouraging people to run really crappy content (the Positron TF) for more merits should instead be fixing the uber-quick and the uber-slow TF to a modicum level (adding a few more missions to Katie and reducing the number of missions for Positron) and not giving high merits for long, boring content that should have been fixed AGES AGO!

PvP, I've seen a lot of people say that if the dimishing returns on Healing was removed and the Travel suppression a bit less, that it would be far more enjoyable...as for me I have no Ideas how PvP could be improved, Issue 13 introduced a whole new boardgame with its regards.

Anyway...I apologise for the ranty nature of my post it's late/early and I haven't slept much.

ML makes a good point about Hami.

We used to all get together and have weekly raids. The dev's changed Hami because they didn't want it to be weekly?!?!?! [censored]? Was weekly too often for them?

Devs: 'Oh no - we don't want all those uber HO's floating around.'

Well guess what mook-Devs - we have IO and STF HO's that are more powerful in some cases than the original HO's.

Now we don't even do it yearly. Might as well not have that entire zone now and forget that Hami exists.

They managed with 24? Well bonk on for them! Obviously the secret legend of the 24 cannot be cracked. Some weird combo like 23 ill/rad conts and an ice blaster, i'll wager.

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Merits, the problem with them is that encouraging people to run really crappy content (the Positron TF) for more merits should instead be fixing the uber-quick and the uber-slow TF to a modicum level (adding a few more missions to Katie and reducing the number of missions for Positron) and not giving high merits for long, boring content that should have been fixed AGES AGO!

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Just a quick snip here. Granted it's only been a few days after I13 launched, but I was icked by the number of calls to do Posi and the people saying it was their second/third of the day.

Pre-13 Posi = Slow, dull, lots and lots of missions, hard factions with the powers/enhances available at that level. Usually done once for the accolade. Do not want.

Post-13 = Slow, dull, lots and lots of missions, hard factions with the powers/enhances available at that level. Now farmed on a regular basis. Do want?

Hell no. Not for me anyway. It is still slow, it is still dull, it still has lots of missions having us run back and forth (memorable 'bring the book to Posi, then go to Atlas, then go to KR, then go to Posi, then go to whereever). It still has the same factions (vhazies are particulary horrible with the -recharge and unresisted toxic damage).

Base line, it's still *the* crappiest TF about but now people are happily doing it over and over. They are purposefuly subjecting themselves to that content they had been studiously avoidind all for the carrot.

This is not a dig for those persons. I like to farm for my enhances and that kind of thing icks a lot of people. It's rather a dig for the developers. I've entered the game at I6 and Posi was considered a really crappy TF back then. I left at I7 and returned a week or so from I12 hitting live, Posi was still considered a crappy TF to run. It's I13, Posi remains a crappy TF, main change is that it has rewards now.

Data mining will show Posi to be just the kind of thing players like since it's what they are now doing.

This was all done to get new people in, that aint worked its a fail.

They did manage to lose what pvp comunity they did have, why dont they just bite the bullet and put it back.

Dont bother with wasting anymore time on something that is always going to be a minority sport.

What happened to content in i13? Was a tf for villains between 40-45 really too much to ask? All these gimicks dont add up to more to do.

This game in my opinion dont need any more merit systems, day jobs, costume options, xp pacts, it needs something new to do.

Much as i hate to admit it, im now looking forward to the mission architect, and hope to god there are some creative people out there, because im honestly sick to death with the same old grind over and over.

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This game in my opinion dont need any more merit systems, day jobs, costume options, xp pacts, it needs something new to do.


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Quoted for the extreme truth.

Personally I think the changes succeed in making PvP more approachable for non-pvp people, but whether this in itself is enough to bring people to the zones is a completely different matter.

There are several good points voiced in above posts. Devs keeps nerfing their own content and think this should somehow make the game more enjoyable to play?! Giant monsters, Hamidon, now task forces. To solve the problem of very long, slow and boring task forces, introduce merits so you get decent rewards ONLY from the long, slow and boring task forces as opposed to the few and far between shorter and more enjoyable ones. Great solution! Making the long, slow and boring task forces somewhat less long, slow and boring never crossed their mind??