PVP changes are for the better...

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
One of the problems with new people joining PVP is that they see people like yourself on here sayhing that PVP is broken with the changes, which it actually isnt, its just that you dont like it.

[/ QUOTE ]


Thats your point of view that its not broken its not mine and many others anyone wanting to join the pvp commuinty needs to have a point of view from both sides dont you think?

[/ QUOTE ]

As long as both points of view are stated calmly and clearly, without frenzied praise or threats to the devs

[/ QUOTE ]

"FBI's Most Wanted: Castle"?

But seriously, Shocky has a good point. It gets tiring after a while, GG.

---

I've said it before and I'll say it again; the problem with PvP in CoX (at least prior to I13's changes) is that if you're new to PvP, haven't spent a large fortune on enhancements and/or have the wrong build, powersets or AT then it's just not fun.

Every time I've made the effort to venture into PvP zones to give it another shot, I end up getting 2-shotted (Or perma-mezzed) over and over again - primarily by blasters - managing maybe a 1:25 kill:death ratio before getting sick to death of it and leaving again.

I've tried Tankers, Brutes, Dominators, Scrappers, Defenders and Warshades (I don't have any Blasters, Corruptors or Stalkers of sufficient level) and they all end the same.

I don't have the time or inclination to spend tens or hundreds of hours and hundreds or thousands of millions of inf on making a "perfect" PvP build of the right powersets to be one of the "good" PvPers, but I would like to feel that I can occasionally pop into one of the PvP zones and have a reasonable chance of having a genuine battle with someone, rather than getting massacred the second I step into the zone.

This isn't a problem with PvPers - I get the whole "PvP makes people act like children" thing, it's human nature to be competitive and it's human nature to act like children when you know you can get away with it (i.e. Over the internet) and that's fine to a point - it's a problem with how PvP works at the moment and is a factor of the way that CoX was originally designed (thankfully) without PvP in mind.

Now I haven't tried the I13 PvP changes yet, but I intend to and really hope that they will mean I can play my Tank or Warshade or Brute in PvP zones and have a good time. I'd expect to and have no problem being beaten by more experienced PvPers and those with powersets that exploit my weaknesses (Fire vs Ice, etc), but not simply because they're a blaster and can keep my tank perma-mezzed for the 10 seconds it takes to chisel my health down, for example.

---

Omnes relinquite spes, o vos intrantes

My Characters
CoX Chatlog Parser
Last.fm Feed

It sounds like my Regen is going to be badly hit, but as a melee AT I'll be getting a boost, so it's sort of evening itself out.
And if I had to choose betweem being a goddess of battle and getting more people involved in PvP, I know what I'd choose

---

@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

As I've said in a post on the test forums, the test server comes down at 12am our time for a patch so lets see what that brings.

---

[ QUOTE ]
As I've said in a post on the test forums, the test server comes down at 12am our time for a patch so lets see what that brings.

[/ QUOTE ]

My guess would be a few more tweaks to the current PvP changes - just enough to make the stars right and bring R'lyeh up from the sea, which seems to be the devs underlying plan, going by the reactions I've read so far.

---

@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

Edit - made a new post on test forums...

---

[ QUOTE ]
I have said before, and I will say it again.

Make enhancements NULL and VOID. Then it is only down to the powers you carry with you, NOT how you have slotted them.

THIS to my mind, will make PvP a fair playing field.
Granted this will annoy a fair few players but it may just mean, that a few more players actually see PvP as fun and 'may' just increase the people who do PvP.

[/ QUOTE ]

IO´s actually make more AT´s playable

---

[ QUOTE ]
I've said it before and I'll say it again; the problem with PvP in CoX (at least prior to I13's changes) is that if you're new to PvP, haven't spent a large fortune on enhancements and/or have the wrong build, powersets or AT then it's just not fun.

[/ QUOTE ]

While thats true to an extent, as was said above me, IO's actually make more builds viable. Anyway..

Shazan, most if not all of the PvPers i know including myself have tried and tested these changes. If it comes off that we are moaning (or elitist), its only because we got kicked in the proverbial nuts after seeing these changes to part of the game we have enjoyed since Issue 4 (5 for me).

These types of threads pop every few months or so and the advice from PvP regulars is always the same: Just ask. In my experience, anyone who's ever asked on how to defeat a certain powerset combination or how can i improve my survival chances has always gotton the answer truthfully from the regulars in various Zones. What we dont like is, if a newcomer (or PvE Vet) comes and gets killed then starts [censored] and swearing towards the PvPers. Thats just painting a target on your head, and you wont be recieving any help, from either side.

If anyone wants to be good at PvP, they dont need to spend an Inf. We would happily share our wealth of knowledge of (current) PvP.

Also final comments to whoever thinks there wont be no overpowering sets after these changes go through... after 5 mins testing the changes i knew what to make in Issue 13 that would make current generation Fire/EM's look weak, so did many others.

---

@SinghMC

[ QUOTE ]
Its strange how PVPers moan that not enough people PVP. Yet we have 2 in this thread showing exactly the attitude of elitism that actively discourages people to try PVP.

[/ QUOTE ]

and theres something that shows nievety. You cant blame them for being upset for something that they really enjoy doing, how would you feel if PvE consisted of freeze ray only and also if it was unenhancable, ie. taken a really fun thing and completely borked it over. Its the same princaple

The changes are not good, yes PvP needed changing, but to this extent where perma mez is still vitually possible and where everything fun has been removed from pvp. The only trouble with this current build of pvp is that its NOT newb friendly and its not Exeperienced friendly either. I have tried it and i cant describe how upset and dissapointed i am to to is got from "inbal" to "IMBAL". What has happened is certain ATs and Build have lost what they do best. eg. Blasters Spike, Healers heal, and Defence based toons supprisingly have a high def base. Also a lot of ppl both this side of the pond and the ther are leaving, yes there is gonna be another build "improving" this one, but the ony improvement i can thin on this is going back to how it is now. least then u can stand it most of the time, instead of being p*@&%d off beyonf belief.

I dont claim to be a PvP pro (god i make way too many mistakes), but i do like to PvP from time to time, and it was an enjoyable part of the game for me and now its become a skipable part of the game for me

I'm fraid to say Castle "did" imho get this "overhaul" completely wrong. (least move suppression isnt as bad as it first was said it was gonna be)

Anyway rant over

n.b.
Disclamer.
This is just my opinion on this subject, I will not be arguing this out, i've said how i feel and thats for me is this subject closed. I don't think its good but i respect the veiws of other ppl who think it is good and i hope u enjoy playing in prolly what will be (to the most part) empty zones (compared to what they were earlier this issue).

---

Is not going to remain VIP after Jan 14th 2012, but may remain an active Premium account holder.
See some of you guys/gals in other/new MMOs Soon(tm)
N.B. If you are going to do smt, please do it or GTFO and STFU nab

I think the PvP changes are good. It levels the playing feild.

If old school PvPers want to play the old system, it seems totally reasonable to have Arena have an "Old School" rules option. They can carry on their fights there.

I am still skeptical about all this talk of "PvP skill supercedes any and all builds". I wonder if a hardcore PvPer with an AR/Ice Blaster )without concealment pool and only fly power, with S0s only) deuled me they could compensate enough.

However. Until they do something about phase shift, i cant see myself doing more than trying out pvp for a short while, and getting bored of me attack, you shift, you attack, me fight back, you shift, nonsense.

---

Many here is moaning about my blaster cant do that, my defender cant do this etc...Dont forget that this game is built around TEAM play. Playing solo in this game will never be balanced, there´s a counters to everything. Just doing duels and playing solo in zones etc is the most dull pvp IMO.
Bringing a team off 4-5 or more with Mixed AT´s (pentads for example) thats some fun pvp, keeping buffs upp, combining spike´s with debuffs etc, locking targets down, keeping enemy blasters etc taunted. There are loads off tactics to be used.
Some fast paced action that needs good reaction´s and at the same time keeping your nervs under control while your adrenaline rushes in your body. ( Like playing emp when spag is enemy blaster )

Solo this game will never have balance im afraid, but teams we could very much get close to it, especially now with the patrons/ancillary pools getting changed.


There we go, just needed clear my thoughts a bit...

I would happily hold a friendly pvp night to proove to the peeps that most off uss isnt that hostile towards you pve´rs. Arena ofc.

---

[ QUOTE ]
The only trouble with this current build of pvp is that its NOT newb friendly and its not Exeperienced friendly either

[/ QUOTE ]

That can only be a good thing IMO. PvP newbies can't just swan in beat the [censored] out of someone in a few moves and neither can experienced players.

---

The defence changes shows they are still working on it

---

[ QUOTE ]
Also final comments to whoever thinks there wont be no overpowering sets after these changes go through... after 5 mins testing the changes i knew what to make in Issue 13 that would make current generation Fire/EM's look weak, so did many others.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is why, in my opinion, PvP in CoX will never work as a mainstream activity. We've got so many build options that it's realitively easy for those who are inclined to use those options to make impregnably powerful PvP characters.

Most, if not all, the best PvP games balance PvP by keeping a fairly tight leash on build options. CoX's biggest strength in its PvE game is the variety of options you have to make characters that play differently, but this variety can't and doesn't translate well into a balanceable PvP game. And this will be true no matter how much tweaking they do to it.

---

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also final comments to whoever thinks there wont be no overpowering sets after these changes go through... after 5 mins testing the changes i knew what to make in Issue 13 that would make current generation Fire/EM's look weak, so did many others.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is why, in my opinion, PvP in CoX will never work as a mainstream activity. We've got so many build options that it's realitively easy for those who are inclined to use those options to make impregnably powerful PvP characters.

Most, if not all, the best PvP games balance PvP by keeping a fairly tight leash on build options. CoX's biggest strength in its PvE game is the variety of options you have to make characters that play differently, but this variety can't and doesn't translate well into a balanceable PvP game. And this will be true no matter how much tweaking they do to it.

[/ QUOTE ]

So they should just leave PvP alone. Don't try to make it "better" then. Because Castle is trying to make it "better" when it was actually alright, but now PvP is a game of who's better. It's like a fight between a normal man and the Undertaker; the man would get mauled, but that leaves the question, why would the man dare fight the undertaker? Otherwise, why would the person without the IO'ed build face the person with it? Because they want to enjoy PvP. But they cant enjoy PvP with the state it's in on test atm. Castle really needs to pull something out of the hat if the PvP changes are going to be mostly positive changes.

My 2 pence.

---

[ QUOTE ]
I'd expect to and have no problem being beaten by more experienced PvPers and those with powersets that exploit my weaknesses (Fire vs Ice, etc), but not simply because they're a blaster and can keep my tank perma-mezzed for the 10 seconds it takes to chisel my health down, for example.

[/ QUOTE ]

Almost all PvP Blasters are either Fire/Energy Ice/Energy pre-i13, that might explain why you may faceplant more often than not, and as it stands Defence in today's form and post-i13 form is pretty much useless against a clever Blaster. And a Blaster perma-mezzing? (Not something ive seen myself) This is why when you enter PvP zones you generally bring Breakfree's aplenty if you are vulnerable to holds, stuns, etc. Once again another tactic to counter a tactic, which is what divides a new PvPer to an experienced one. And dieing in 10 seconds, sounds like whoever your fighting has used Aim + BU, or Build-up alone, Phase shift or run away, attack back when they don't have their IWIN button active.

If people die, and talk on /b about how it was unfair etc your not going to do yourself no favours, persevere, there is always a tactic to counter a tactic, in most cases impossible for 'new' PvPers, if you use a PvE build for PvP you will not win against a char who is built for PvP, and i'm not talking about IO builds, a simple SO build built in the right way would be very much still viable in pre-i13 PvP. If your defeated in a blink of an eye, instead of ranting on in public channels why not send the player a /tell? "Wow, what the hell hit me?" i'm sure the vast majority of Players will tell you what he done to defeat you, and this may think about your tactics and how to counter your enemies.

---

[ QUOTE ]
So they should just leave PvP alone. Don't try to make it "better" then.

[/ QUOTE ]

What did you really expect them to do though? Every issue they get complaints about how they forget about the pvpers and it now seems theyr dedicating the next 2 issues to try to fix it.
I'ld be happy that theyr finally taking some bold steps to fix it and make it more VARIED . ATM on live, if you go into a pvp zone you'll mostly see a blaster, a dominator, a corruptor and a pocket emp (oh and stalkers). Most of which uses the same small pool of "non lol" pvp powersets (fire/ice).

I used to live in the pvp zones over a year ago until inventions came out, then instead of it being a case of skill v skill, it became a game of burst damage/IOs v burst damage/IOs. I didnt like it because i didnt want to spend literally ages to frstly get a pvp toon up and running, and then spending even longer to get all the IOs out to be on a level playing field.
Thats why me and a few people stopped going into pvp zones and took our fights into the arena, because we knew we were on a more level playing field that it'ld be fun!

I know and understand WHY the pure pvpers arent happy about all this and yes some of the nerfs/buffs are pretty extreme but they were needed to get people like me (and my friends who dont post on here) back into the pvp zones. You guys will still have a clear advantage since you do have both the skill and *still* the numerical advantage. But at least now i wont be thinking

"oh great im dead again. No point in trying again since iv only got standard IOs in my toon"

Now i'll be thinking along the lines of

"hmmmm ok im dead but this time i put some dent into their health and made them a bit worried, maybe i CAN win!"

For me i'll always build a character for pve firstly thinking which character/powersets would be the most fun and interesting to me. Not "ok this powerset burst damage is roughly 8% higher than that one, i'll pick it. Doesnt matter about the secondary affect, if i want to win a fight i must have the highest burst damage ingame"

Yeah anyway, the people i pvp against and myself are some of the players looking forward to this and the possible addition of pvp games in the future so its a good change imo

---

@Damz Find me on the global channel Union Chat. One of the best "chat channels" ingame!

[ QUOTE ]
Many here is moaning about my blaster cant do that, my defender cant do this etc...Dont forget that this game is built around TEAM play. Playing solo in this game will never be balanced, there´s a counters to everything. Just doing duels and playing solo in zones etc is the most dull pvp IMO.

Bringing a team off 4-5 or more with Mixed AT´s (pentads for example) thats some fun pvp, keeping buffs upp, combining spike´s with debuffs etc, locking targets down, keeping enemy blasters etc taunted. There are loads off tactics to be used.
Some fast paced action that needs good reaction´s and at the same time keeping your nervs under control while your adrenaline rushes in your body. ( Like playing emp when spag is enemy blaster )

Solo this game will never have balance im afraid, but teams we could very much get close to it, especially now with the patrons/ancillary pools getting changed.


There we go, just needed clear my thoughts a bit...

I would happily hold a friendly pvp night to proove to the peeps that most off uss isnt that hostile towards you pve´rs. Arena ofc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Quality stuff Falc and I agree completely. Team PvP is superb and it gives us an opportunity to transfer our PvE skills and tactics to the PvP arena.

From my, admittedly limited, PvP experience it is more about ego for the majority and there is nothing wrong at all with that. Fair play to them. PvP in it's current form isn't for me but I can understand why they thrive on the competitive enviroment of it.

From my point of view though PvP will always be "broken" as long as you need a "PvP build" or until you can go into any PvP zone with any PvE build of your choosing and expect a fair fight.

I guess I am the kind of player that these new PvP changes are being made to try and attract into the zones, but ultimately it is the concept of CoX PvP that I am not drawn to, not the system itself. I don't play a MMO to solo PvP, I play it for the team play and the team dynamic. If I want to play a single player PvP game there are dozens of more balanced and specialised options for me to choose from than CoX.

---

For me I had been pvping from the start with empusae a sonic/sonic corrupter, I pushed and pushed that corrupter to what I felt was her ultimate capability but in the end and after what must be over a year of zonal pvp i had to withdraw her from zones not because of her build/skill but because she could no longer stand up against 5 spine/reg scrappers ganking her every single time she went into the zone. The advice I got from the rest of the pvp community was to roll guess what a spines/reg scrapper or a fire?em blaster.

No wonder the pvp zones are stale and tbh i welcome any any change that allows players to move though that glass ceiling.

---

I do however, agree that the latest changes after the patch suck bigtime.

Now all the stronger builds get defences back, unaffected heals back and no longer have the accuracy anti-ganking effect.

Yet squishies like my corruptor, have no defences other than heals which are still affected by DR......now that sucks.

So healers are redundant and spiney regens are back to normal pretty much.

However, I am hopeful that it is a work in progress.

---

Zhaan, Chakyra, Fiorina 161, Aeryn, Polly Nation, Dee Pression, Shazanne, Night Jester and too many more to mention.

Network Hell 47640
Valley of the Harpies 74519
Green and Pleasant Land 75966

OTOH, if you make /Regen massively subject to diminished effect, you remove the defences of /Regen entirely. All it has is healing.

I dunno... I don't PvP currently, but debuffing Reconstruction would stop me taking my /regen in at all. Waste of time.

Not sure NCNC can win.

---

Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.

[ QUOTE ]
OTOH, if you make /Regen massively subject to diminished effect, you remove the defences of /Regen entirely. All it has is healing.

I dunno... I don't PvP currently, but debuffing Reconstruction would stop me taking my /regen in at all. Waste of time.

Not sure NCNC can win.

[/ QUOTE ]

I suppose there-in lies the problems with effectively grafting a PvP element onto what is, by both design and concept, a multi-player PvE game. PvP will never have the balance of PvE no matter what they do. I suppose the best anyone can hope for is to make it accessable and enjoyable to as many people as possible. Whether the new changes actually achieve that or not will be interesting to see. My money would be on the changes having a minimal effect on the numbers of active PvPers at best, but at least they have recognised a problem and are trying to fix it. Question is, is PvP fixable in the first place?

---

[ QUOTE ]
Goading is, and always will be part of PvP, taunting can even be used tactically, you taunt a player he will often desperately try to kill you, trying to hard, making mistakes and often ending up dead. I've seen it used in FPS and RPG games alike. I used it alot in Planetside, you'd be amazed how [censored] peoples aim can get if you taunt them, and the risky lengths they will go to try and lay that killing blow on you, only to lead to their demise.


Every night for around 2+ months I'd PvP on either my Stalker, or my Blaster depending on which side needed the numbers. I was welcomed by alot of the so called 'PvP vets' most of which i never even knew beforehand, bare in mind I essentially play this game for Role-play, and have done for over 2 years, but ive always liked Player vs Player too. Yes, you get the occasional [censored], as with all community's, but I was still invited to PvP channels and in most cases made some friends and generally had alot of fun. So the case of elitism is kind of proven wrong by how I felt the PvP community treat and welcomed me.

[ QUOTE ]
It's borderline greifing, but the textbook response from many PvP players is "If you don't like it, get out." or "It's PvP. Anything goes.". It's not hard to see why some newcomers are put off the PvP scene.

[/ QUOTE ]

The classic "Please don't kill me i'm farming Pillboxes/AV's/etc" annoys me no end frankly, hell yeah go for it, but at the end of the day it's risk vs reward, the risk is enemy players. You enter a Player vs Player zone knowing the risks, knowing you may be ganked, this isn't 'A-hole syndrome' this is how the PvP works, you entered the zone knowing fine well the risks, yet people still moan about it when they are killed. If I rolled a 'PvP server' on other well known MMO's and got sick to death of being ganked I'd roll on a PvE server, or quest and level with a bunch of friends, why [censored] about it? You chose that specific server knowing fine well the risks, just as you enter Sirens Call, RV, BB, etc knowing the risks that come with zonal PvP. If you don't want to be ganked, bring backup, pick off people, or don't bother at all.

[ QUOTE ]
Whats not fun is having someone bouncing around you, you cannot for the life of you target them, even using tab, as it seems to lock on to everything EXCEPT the one you want (!!!!!! >.< ) and then dying without even a chance to fight. And getting two shooted by a tanker when my own tanker seems to be fodder for everyone, despite being pretty tough and doing decent damage just added insult to injury.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe I was part of that in Sirens Call. The so called 'Bunny Hopping' is done for the exact reason you stated, keeping range and staying in the air as to avoid an Assassins Strike/Melee chars. It would be a very in-experienced Blaster if they intentionally stood still. 'Bunny Hopping' will still be a valid tactic in i13 changes as they currently are, but as with every tactic there is always a counter tactic, this is what divides an experienced PvP'er, to a new PvP'er, general tactics and counters.

Good example atleast in the current system: You see a Blaster activate Aim + BU, your a squishy AT, do you;

A: Whack on your trusty Phase shift power before the Blaster has chance to attack.
B: Leg it!
C: Attack with everything you've got!

I dare say all experienced PvP'ers' will either A, or B. As Aim + BU is what makes Blasters overpowered (IMO) in the current build. You wait ten seconds, till the Blasters Aim + BU fades, and then you hit back. From my experience Blasters are very much hit and run, Aim + BU is your lifeblood. If you make them use that up, you then have the advantage, but of course, there's yet a tactic to counter that, the Blaster could Hibernate. All this happening in the space of less than 30 seconds makes PvP in this game fun (For me) in i13 it doesn't feel the same to me, it feels slow and clunky, that's coming from a Stalker and a Blaster PoV.

[/ QUOTE ]

^ This is actually a well argued, well laid out and actually quite welcome post.
It DOES get seriously annoying when you never seem to win but, turning the tables...I think most of us would do the same.

I guess we will just have to see how I13 PVP turns out. If it is so busted that the majority are in uproar, there will be little choice but to try and change/fix/undo it.
-waits and sees- =3

---

[ QUOTE ]
The classic "Please don't kill me i'm farming Pillboxes/AV's/etc" annoys me no end frankly

[/ QUOTE ]

Annoys me, too. If I go near a PvP Zone, I go there expecting to be attacked. Quite frankly, it rarely happens because there's usually no one there, but I go in loaded up assuming I will do.

[ QUOTE ]
knowing you may be ganked, this isn't 'A-hole syndrome' this is how the PvP works

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on your definition of 'ganked.' To me, ganking means PvP kills where the target has no hope of resisting and the attackers know it. Now, in a war, that's cool and totally valid tactics. But this is a game. If you don't think that ganking isn't being a bit 'unsportsmanlike' then you have a lousy definition of 'sportsman.'

And no, saying that's the way the game works doesn't make it all right. It just means you're using the 'just following orders' defence.

---

Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.

Ok taking all this outside the box so to speak, I have very limited PVP on this game so can't really comment. I mean I tried once with a Dar/Dark curruptor, that was suicide, then a MM again lasted all of five seconds and that was it. Though I did sort of enjoy the thrill of being hunted by real players it still made me not want to go back as I seemed to have no chance of winning and first impressions do count for a lot, I know now though both of them AT's are very difficult to use in PVP and corruptors are probably unsolable.

Anyway thinking aside from all this and other fps pvp games people saying LOL YOU SUCK STUPID NOOB, all the time do make you feel like hating all PVP events, happily though I never got that in this game, I just couldnt really defend myself which I found annoying, So yes as a outsiders point of view if you cant have a fair battle or at least cant even hit the enemy then it is broken.

However as stated this game was not really made for PVP and it seems the only way they will fix it, which is what they are hinting at is to have PVE build for outside of PVP and in PVP letting you make your own PVP only type build.

And just don't take it personal I guess, I see it in RP and PVE communities, someone probably not trying to upset anyone will say lol noob, or take something way too personal when it's intended as well out of the box, though you can't blame people for getting [censored] off if you get streams of abuse just for getting killed and trying to fight back, it didn't happen to me in this game but it has happened in other PVP games but as stated, nothing anyone can do about that ifs its competitive people will brag.

Overall though was PVP broken? Yes, will it be broken after these changes? Yes but it may jsut be easier for casual visitors to PVP to fight back. Can it ever be made perfect? Probably but it would take such a drastic overhaul that it would probably be way more contraversial than what they are doing.

---

The end is just a new beginning, Goodbye all my coh friends and even the enemies, its been a blast I will miss you all. Thank you Paragon team, you gave me a home from home I will always appriciate it.