Captain_Tastic

Simply put, the way that non-healing defenders work is they do everything they can to prevent heals from being required in the first place, and if they ARE required, well sod it, it's not your responsibility.

I don't have a traps defender but I have a good comparison - Trick Arrow. It's a toon I play a lot, and there is a lot of hate and ignorance out there for it for precisely the reasons you state, i.e. it is a non-healing defender. In fact, unlike traps, it's a non-buffing defender too. He has been refused places on TFs who are asking for a defender because they "want a proper defender, not a plastic one". The hate that comes his way the more determined I get to play him. "TEAM WITH HIM UNTIL YOU LOVE HIM!!!!" I cry, metaphorically. Unfortunately, there is a lot of players out there (although still a minority I must add) who consider the sole purpose of a defender is to be a heal-bot for their precious damage dealers. Their understanding of the game is this... Mobs attack us, we attack them, the ones who are left standing win, heals help us stand longer - ergo we need heals to win the fight.

It's certainly one way of doing things, but I would argue that is a crude and primitive way of doing it. Very "tally-ho chaps - pistols at twelve paces". A fair fight between two evenly matched teams and the better team wins. Spiffing. But who says it has to be a fair fight? Your job, as a non-healing defender, is to ensure it is NOT a fair fight. Debuff their damage and accuarcy, hold them, knock them on their backsides, make them run away, debuff their resistences which give them less time and opportunity to do the team damage before they are defeated.

Basically you just want to do all you can to reduce the number of attacks, and the potency of those attacks, on your team. Then you can be safe in the knowledge you are doing your thing well. But, and I really can't stress this enough so I will underline it, do not let anyone convince you that a white shield in a blue circle next to your name makes you responsible for healing. It's simply not the case and the most likely occurance is a bad team or bad leader trying to make you a scapegoat for their bad or badly put-together team.

Enjoy. Toodles.

What, and still no details about i15 yet??!?! Come on devs!! Patience isn't a bottomless pit you know!

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"Possibly swapping Melt Armour for either Blazing Aura, or Taunt?"


both if you actually want aggro.

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I'm glad someone else brought that up. I would have done, but I am not allowed to talk about tauntless tanking anymore.

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With Fire aren't you just swapping one weakness (Cascading defense failure in Ice) for others (Malta Sappers & Recharge Debuffs)?

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I agree completely. That is the case with ANY tank. Anyone looking for the perfect tank are going to be looking a long long time. Every tank has weakness and holes, but it is about covering those with experience and know-how. Like I said before, if you don't have that experience and know-how then Granite becomes the best option by far, otherwise the time you would spend levelling a new tank would be better off spent gaining experience with your current tank, otherwise you'd just be left with the same problem (i.e having a tank you don't know how to get the best out of). From my personal point of view I don't see how a fire tank will be any more survivable than an ice armour tank. No defence at all, no +HP etc. It will be more agressive but definely far higher maintanence.

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Its getting so common for people to drop a tank they cant passively tank with.

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Too true. I have found that tanking is the AT which is most highly dependant on experience and knowlwedge of the game. That's why I consider Stone tanks to be "tanking for dummies". Now I realise that there are plenty Stone tanks out there who's knowledge and experience are as good as anyone elses on the game and they can tank at a far higher level as a result, but stripping tanking down to it's most basic mandate of "take alpha ---> taunt ---> survive" and Granite gets the job done without the need for the experience and added expertise.

I have 5 level 50 tanks and I consider my Granite my least favourite by far. It is survivable to the extreme (I don't think there is any debate to be had about whether or not it is the most basic survivable tank primary in the game), but how often is the extreme really encountered in the game? I have found that with accumulated experience and knowledge there is very little indeed that I can achieve with my stoney that I can't with my other tanks (invul, WP, Ice, Sields) with similar ease. For me, good tanking will always be 95% technique and experience and then the actual build becomes a little trivial.

If you want to tank Psi in Stone Armour then you drop out of Granite and hit minerals. You don't have to stay in Granite the whole time. I think that Minerals gives just under 40% def to Psi when slotted with 3 defs, get a Steadfast + def in there too and you have 43% def to psi. If you are facing other damage types on the same mission as Psi then hit another couple of toggles too.

You have been unlucky, Donna. Simple as that. Ice is a very survivable primary for a tank but, as with all defence sets, you are always at the mercy of a random unlucky streak of hits and, on ITF where a large percentage of attacks that hit you will debuff you defence, an unlucky streak is going to really hurt.

But I certainly wouldn't give up with ice because of a bad experience early doors. It's a superb set. My advice would be to keep a window open to monitor your defence levels, and when you see a cascade defence failure starting hit a purple or two to top it up back to a survivable level. I have just finished a /energy aura Brute and that tactic worked very well for me. It wasn't always needed, just against foes with defence debuffs, but it saved me plenty of face plantage.

I'd stick with it. Granite's are highly survivable but boy was it a mind-numbing experiene to reduce yourself to basically a rock almost incapable of movement and giving yourself a -recharge penalty. I found ice a far more enjoyable and action packed tank than my granite, and generally highly survivable too.

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Well, It might be just me being a noob right but i run herd them all up if health goes to low i use earths embrace and i use purples and yet my health still seems to deteriate quite quick. and even if it doesnt the enemys seem not to keep taunted for long with attacking my team instantly.
I think it must be me! whats everyones builds on a stone/stone?
And any tips about herding will be taking with much consideration and thankfulness

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What level are you currently? Lower than lvl 32 I'd assume as that doesn't sound like my experiences with my stoney post-granite. If so then herding on most tanks at that level can be precarious. Getting a well balanced team with some buffs and control will massively enchance your survivablity. With regards holding aggro... are you always running mud pots? That helps a lot.

With regard herding itself, it's difficult to tell you where you are going wrong without seeing you, but in general the keys to herding is nice clear communication with the team, picking the right corners, patience, and staying hidden. Run to the first mob and stand in it letting your taunt aura grab them, a ranged taunt on the second mob, then back to the corner at which you have your team waiting. Then have the patience to STAY HIDDEN around the corner for a nice tight pull.

Hope that lot helps a little. If not, feel free to ask more questions till we get it sorted .

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Your problems may not be down to you. Some people seem to think that because you share the same room as the enemies they must be taunted It'll be better if someone watched you in game as it could be a whole mix of things.

I have macros that come out 1 - 3 times on a mish depending on the team to let them know my intentions, its for them and me, but they can go unheeded, so I may lie and give a false statement to delay them, then they wonder why I lied, well its cos the truth ain't good enough to be heeded and a lie works so much more.

Gaining aggro control and the moving of numbers is "tending to numbers positionally" which counts as herding to me.

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I consider lying to be an essential tool in any tank's armoury . Quite often I will go to a corner, say "Herding to here" knowing fine well I will be using a corner ahead of that. Basicially because some teams are incapable of waiting for 10-20 seconds without creeping forward and getting in the LoS.

Happy birthday, marra.

I don't really have anything constructive to add about "Multiboxing", Salerth. In fact I didn't even know what it was until reading this thread. I have two accounts but that was just really for extra slots (before purchasable/vet reward slots) and now I just really use them for inf/Io transfers etc and have two machines anyway so, honestly, can't help on the multiboxing thing.

But just wanted to say it was great to see a fellow mackem on CoX and a fellow insomniac too!

I consider myself something of a tanking aficionado and I would say that WP is a splendid choice. The low-maintenence nature of it makes it especially suitable if, like yourself, you are looking for an offensive type tank with some big attacks.

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I have no idea why so many tankers are worried about damage output in teaming situations. All you need is make sure is you have accuracy and recharge to generate threat.

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Must admit that damage is the last thing on my mind when I am making a tank.

I am not fond of my Stone tank at all. Of my 5 level 50 tanks my Granite is by far my least favourite. Tremendous survivability, but it basically reduces you to a near stationary rock doing everything in super-slow motion.

By comparison I love my ice tank. None better at holding the aggro, mobile, versatile, and excellent mitigation with chilling embrace. I can see why some would find ice melee very bland but must admit I really enjoyed it. Again, some excellent damage mitigation in there. As Carn says, Dark Melee would also be a very strong secondardy for an ice tank. Also don't discard fire for a good, strong, agressive AoE tank.

Some scrappers will benefit from herding. Fire, Spines, Dark. Shields etc, but I think that herding teams hurt their egos more than hurts their effectiveness. Obvious exceptions being something like a BS/Regen, or Katana/SR etc. Not saying it is necessarily a bad thing. A lot of scrappers spend a fortune on their build and are pretty much capable of soloing an 8 man mission themselves and they, quite understandably, want to show that build off. Fair play to them. Problem is it isn't always what is right for the team. I guess that is a decision for the team to make at the time, though.

Personally I find that through the levels herding is the fastest, safest, and most enjoyable way to level in regular teaming. I have no problem with anyone who doesn't hare my opinion, as long as they can accept that if they find themselves on a team with me tanking then it is unlikely to be the right team for them.

Completely agree with that, Carn. A bad herder sticks in your mind and can completely ruin a team. I remember once teaming with a tank on a team of 4 and he was the highest level, his missions, set to invince. It was purple minnions to the rest of us. He insisted on running around herding however many his cap would allow which every time resulted in the rest of the team getting wiped. I simply said "This isn't the team for me. See you next time" and left. That is what bad herding tanks do, though, they herd for themselves, not for their team. I still maintan however that a GOOD herding tank can be a huge assett to a team. Good herding tanks know not to herd Nemesis or DE for example, or not to herd in caves, or large outdoor maps. Good effective herding is about good experience and knowledg in most cases rather than technique.

I suppose a herding tank is the same as anything though, there are good'uns and bad'uns. I have lost count of the amount of counter-productive stormies I have teamed with who throw their KB around without any thought. Similarly NRG blasters. Or illusion controllers letting their pets run wild and slowing everyone down in the process. Or Empaths who, when asked why they aren't giving out any heals, trot out the old line of "I'm more of a regen blaster, you know". That doesn't mean there aren't people who can play those toons and those rolls well though and to great benefit of the team. It's the same with herding tanks.

I have always found that if a herding team is slow and painful, it is the tank who is rubbish, not the idea of herding itself. But, again, that is just my own personal experience. Perhaps I have just been lucky.

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And yet, as per what you're saying about your last night's experience, seems the most sensible way would had been pulling rather than herding if I am reading correctly.

From what I've seen so far ingame, most herders on an 8 man team just do so to please themselves and in some cases, telling others off when doing same thing on two tanker teams, like not everybody has the right to do same thing, I've also found this happens far more in EU teams, in my short US experience, usually players who don't adapt to team leader orders are plainly kicked off the team, which in most cases I've found out it's a good practice. Most groups in an 8 man team (and 5+) will be close enough to aggro cap to not justify herding above other methods, such as pulling or simply taking alpha, and in few occasions depending on their spawning position, herd. Post lvl 32 this is specially true since any decent built controller who knows what he's doing (and even a Dark Defender) can take care of most aggro by himself relegating the tank to a secondary role if he wishes to do so, so even less point to make the team waste time herding for the sake of doing so, again, except in few occasions where yes, the most advisable course of action is herding and someone in the team, not necessarily the tank if he's not team leader, needs to assess the call about how to proceed.

However, herding per se is the least useful tactic in most occasions on large teams and most of the times I've seen it done it has been due to player's ego or to cover for blatant team weak skills, which don't necessarily mean players weak skills, I mean team skills, which could be sorted by team leader, not nnecessarily by the tanker whoever the tanker is, and as I've seen mostly in this game herding on large teams usually leads to popcorn while waiting. Some of you are keen to give others the benefit of doubt, for good or bad, I’m not that keen since I’ve found myself too often utterly bored on such teams where the tank is not merely assessing the situation but just perma-herding without taking care of the aggro cap for his own fun or even worse, trying to tailor the right team to facilitate herding.

Herding for me is a no-no 90% of the time and when such thing happens on a team, I prefer to find an excuse and do something else rather than enduring it.-

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In my experience the waiting thing is entirely down to the tank. A skilled herding tank can get waiting time down to seconds, often just the time it takes for the team to assemble at the right spot. Jump into the middle of one mob, a ranged taunt on the next, and back to the corner where the team is waiting. Litterally seconds. May be 20 seconds or so for a 3 or 4 mob herd which, agaian, a skilled tank will ensure they come to you whilst you are getting rid of the first couple of mobs which cuts down on even more waiting time. That's why I don't buy the whole waiting argument, but I admit it largely depends on the skill of the the tank and good herding tanks are as rare these days as bad ones are two-a-penny.

I would say a good herding tank is one who knows when to herd, what to herd, how many to herd, and can keep waiting time down to a minimum when he does. For example, I do get frustrated when large outdoor maps are herded, such as the Dreck or Battle Maiden map. Quicker to go single mobs really on the vast majority of them. But on your standard indoor building/warehouse map I find herding speeds things up and is more fun. That is just my experience/preference, though.

But I do think that tarnishing all herding tanks with the same brush is plain wrong. There are some very very good ones out there, and they are, in my opinion, the best tanks about.

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It seems quite simple to me. If you don't like herding and herding teams then don't stay in one. If you don't like non-herding teams then find a herding one. Plenty room for all and plenty other people to team with. But to say very matter of factly that herding is rubbish, useless, and isn't fun is just plain ignorance. To be able to effectively herd when necessary is a very useful string to any tank's bow and if the tank feels this is the way for him to be most effective at his roll, comfortable, and, more importantly, enjoy it the most, then fair play to him, he is a herding tank and there is absoluterly nothing wrong with that at all. As you say, it is about fun, and that includes that of the tank.

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I agree with this, so I usually vote with my feet.

That doesn't mean my opinion (and everything here is purely my own opinion) that herding isn't fun is pure ignorance in any way. I wouldn't accuse anyone who is a proponent of herding to be ignorant either, we just have differing opinions on what we find fun.

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To be able to effectively herd when necessary is a very useful string to any tank's bow


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Again I agree with this too, but my opinion about when it's necessary will obviously differ from others.

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To be honest mate I was more referring to Nightmarer, who has repeatedly stated very matter-of-factly that people who herd or enjoy herding are "unskilled", "lazy", "stupid" and for all intents and purposes, wrong about how they enjoy the game.

In a thread where generally the consesus has been "well in my opinion <insert opinion here>, but to each their own", everyone else (including yourself) is largely stating an opinion based on what they enjoy and based on a premise that everyone enjoys different things about the game and has a different idea of what is fun within it. In contrast I find his views on the matter very ignorant.

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I am a big believer in letting a Tanker tank on their terms at the end of the day. People put things right thru experience.

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I agree with that 100%.

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A tank taking aggro is simply doing his job. I don't see how ego comes into it.

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Since when is taking aggro same thing as herding?

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When did I say it was? What is is though is one very viable and effective method of achieving it. Quite simply, when everything is in the same place it is easier for the tank to keep and control the aggro. It is easier for many other ATs too to be able to make the most of their powers. Healers, buffers, controllers, and pretty much anything AoE based. That doesn't encompass everyone admittedly, but it shows that there are times, quite often in my experience, when herding is the safest, fastest, and most efficient way to play the game.

Whether or not that is the most fun to be had playing the game is purely a matter of personal opinion. I love AoE teams. I love seeing hundreds little numbers floating up and mobs simply melting away. To me, that is fun and a very enjoyable way to spend my game time.

It seems quite simple to me. If you don't like herding and herding teams then don't stay in one. If you don't like non-herding teams then find a herding one. Plenty room for all and plenty other people to team with. But to say very matter of factly that herding is rubbish, useless, and isn't fun is just plain ignorance. To be able to effectively herd when necessary is a very useful string to any tank's bow and if the tank feels this is the way for him to be most effective at his roll, comfortable, and, more importantly, enjoy it the most, then fair play to him, he is a herding tank and there is absoluterly nothing wrong with that at all. As you say, it is about fun, and that includes that of the tank.

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and after a spectatular cascading defenses failure wiped the tank we ended up playing in a more normal style with me taking the alphas instead and everyone just piling in

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So you are saying a herding tank "showing off", or in this case doing his job and taking alpha and aggro, prevented you from showing off on your fancy EAT, thus he was spoiling your fun and stealing your thunder.

A little playful radical interpretation of the text there on my part I admit, but the point is still valid. A tank taking aggro is simply doing his job. I don't see how ego comes into it.

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3 Slots in sprint and grab that run speed unique.

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Pretty sure it isn't a unique. You can have 5 of them in any build.

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Herding in a team of 5+ is plain stupid except in very few particular situations. It's just a waste of time for the whole team while the tanker feels uber at the expense of the team, IOs or not, plus most AoE debuffs can be reapplied easily on next group so can't see a point there either.-

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To be honest I find that a very ignorant point of view. Granted, it may be your preference from your own personal experience, but it is no where near as matter of fact as you would suggest. From my own experience, from both a tank and a non-tank point of view, herding teams are the fastest and safest for all. It helps the tank control the aggro, it helps the AoE damage dealers, it helps the single target buffers as all the team are in the same place, it helps the empath for the same reason, it helps the rad/cold/storm/dark defenders with their anchor debuffs, in fact the only toons I'd say it held back were the more single target toons such as broadsword etc.

Now don't get me wrong, I am not saying it is the only tactic that works and I am not saying everyone will enjoy it (would be a very dull community if we all enjoyed the same thing), but it certainly isn't "stupid", a "waste of time", and designed merely to pander to the ego of the tank. Whether it is a tactic for you or not there are absolutely undeniable merits to the tactic.

It is interesting you claim it is for the benefit of the tank's ego, though. When I have been tanking I have often observed that the ego of the Scrapper is the most prevalent in matters of the herding debate. The old "look at me, I am really uber and strong! I don't need a tank to take aggro for me and I can kill stuff quick too" mentality. I can see how herding teams can be frustrating and seem like a lot of waiting around for nothing for some scrappers, but the vast majority of ATs and builds I can see blossoming in a team with a good herding tank.

It is entirely down to play style and situation I guess, and the best tanks will be the ones that know when to herd and when to rush, but dismissing herding entirely would be very foolish. It is an extremely valuable string for any tanker to have to his bow.

I have 5 level 50 tanks and I herd with all of them and my stone/stone is by far my least favourite, simply because I feel the movement/recharge penalty for granite isn't worth it. That said, all can be solved with a good reliable speed boosting kin.

On herding itself, I am a huge advocate of it, and I arrived in the game after the taunt cap was introduced. Obviously it isn't always necessary, but I herd more often than not. The main reason is the aggro control. If I herd a couple mobs around a corner then I know where they all are. I am not looking round in case something I didn't know was there is hitting on a squishy. Get some controllers in the team and the few that do escape your taunt are quickly dealt with.

As for herding technique, I would suggest a few golden rules. Firstly, be thorough. A couple of passes through a mob to make sure the taunt aura has them etc. Secondly, communication is key. Set up a couple of binds to quickly tell your team you are herding and where to, another asking them to "back up" to fire off on your way back in case they are a little impatient is also reccomended. Thirdly, once you are hidden, STAY HIDDEN. You will find that should your team kill quickly enough you will get a few more trickling through to the herd point mid-fight. Finally, one you are probably aware of but thought I'd mention it anyway, always herd back towards the team, never away from them. Obviously you can't always manage that but it should be your aim as often as possible.

Herding isn't for everyone and as we have seen plenty even question the point of it. But as a herding tank those are my views. Hope they help. Happy tanking.

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I genuinely cannot fathom why so many people seemingly have difficulty getting their head around it.

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They don't, it's just the OP (who hasn't been seen since) and possibly one or two others.

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To be honest the amount of blind invites I receive in game may suggest otherwise. Although there is nothing to say they can't understand it, just that they don't care.