How do non-healing builds work?

I tried to make a traps defender, and I sucked at it. I'd just keep plugging away, but there were other issues (including a serious clipping problem on his costume when running which was driving me nuts), and he was only level 8, so I deleted and figured I would at some point give it another try.

But this leads me to a question: How is a traps defender supposed to work? In a lot of groups I've been in, there's been a serious difficulty in not having any healing to speak of, and I'm not sure Triage Beacon does much healing -- I don't have exact numbers to hand, but it didn't seem like it was doing much. I suppose the force field drone is a pretty core power, but this gets me to my general question:

How is a traps/ defender expected to handle stuff, either soloing or in groups? What's the solution to "health bar has gone red", or do you just try to keep that from happening? My intuitive read is that, compared to sets that have at least some heals, traps ought to be pretty weak, or ought to have some huge advantages to make up for the lack... But I'm told it's a really strong set.

So what's the trick?

(Edit to clarify: Interestingly, /devices is my joy, and the two blasters I'm still playing are both /devices, because OMG SO MUCH FUN.)

How do they work? Very well. Triage beacon - ignore it. Your point in traps is buffing your team (FF) and debuffing the enemy. Same with Trick Arrow - loads of debuffs.

The solution to "Health going red" is - pop a green and debuff some more.

Heals are overrated (barring a *very* few situations - old hami raids, some mothership raids, very early sewer teams.) And I say that with a 50 Emp/Rad and 50 Ice/Emp, so there's no emp hate here.

Edit: Defenders are an unusual AT. Every primary plays quite differently from every other - try playing a stormy like your traps, for instance.

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Hmm. What I guess I get stumped on is, how do I keep other people from running low on health if I'm traps? Caltrops certainly does help (on an archery/devices blaster, I was able to avert a near-death by causing the five things beating on the tank to simultaneously all run away in different directions when the tank had about 2% health left), but I don't see much in the way of mechanisms to keep other players from dying. Now, acid mortar is seriously awesome in terms of making critters die faster, but I'm not sure that's enough to soften the blow of the tank having inbound attacks from 8-10 critters. Force field presumably helps, but... I guess I'm assuming that the build is focused a bit less on damage mitigation, and more on other kinds of buffs/debuffs? So it's not really a replacement for a damage-mitigation build, but might be more useful in circumstances where you don't really need damage mitigation.

... Come to think of it, though, sewer runs are indeed the main place I've been doing a ton of healing. Running around with a tank on my d/d defender, I only occasionally heal, and it's not that I need to or someone dies, just that it saves time resting between mobs.

With a tank, you're going to be trying to keep stuff on him/her/it. You can, if you want, hover close with your Force field going (and, hey, snag stealth and do some toe-bombing) but you'll definitely have to get "heal" out of your vocabulary and mindset. You can drop triage beacon at his feet if you want. *shrug* It's not a heal, it's a regen buff.

How are you keeping others from running low on health? You're making the enemy easier to kill faster (-resist and -def debuffs,) hit less (-perception and -dmg in seeker drone, for instance, as well as the various -recharge) and buffing your team somewhat (FFG.) Their health... isn't your concern, to be blunt. Removing health faster on the enemy is.

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Roll an traps/ar defender and play it like a blaster. Problem solved. Like others have stated the job of a traps defender is to make stuff die. If you want to keep others from getting hurt try cold domination. No heal powers but you won't need it.

You could have the greatest and longest look at a defender set, max it to a point where you can see how you would play it versus anything in the game. You could go further and see how your powers stack or pseudo stack with anyother character creatible and work out tactics. What you can't do is play other peoples characters for them and that's where everything falls apart.

Traps provides layered defence when it matures.

+Def from the Force Field generator, -To Hit and -Dam from Seeker Drones, and +Regen from Triage Beacon, hold from poison Gas Trap and Caltrops breaking up enemy AI.

Your allies who are taking the hits will also have their own defences matured, and have bigger pockets so that they typically have a green pill for emergencies, which will happen rarely.

I don't know how it handles sewer runs, but non-healing sets tend to do rather badly there from what I've seen. Sewer runs are an oddity, in that AoE heals are one of the best mitigations going for them.

At low levels, spike damage is low, so healing works well. And defence/resistance powers havent been slotted or even taken yet, so FF, Sonic, Cold and Traps aren't offering enough in the way of mitigation to make patch-up heals unnecessary. This all changes by the early 20s as people get their core powers together and Sos. By then your FFG will be offering +22% defence, so between that and Manouvers, you've turned evreyone into a SR scrapper on SOs... almost. And you're also providing other sources of mitigation, like I said.

Toe bomb with poison trap. Get next to an enemy, plant poison trap at his feet, poison trap goes off right after its set. Aoe short duration hold, large -recharge debuff, -regen debuff (mostly matters for avs/monsters), and sometimes makes stuff vomit (basically a short duration cc).

Simply put, the way that non-healing defenders work is they do everything they can to prevent heals from being required in the first place, and if they ARE required, well sod it, it's not your responsibility.

I don't have a traps defender but I have a good comparison - Trick Arrow. It's a toon I play a lot, and there is a lot of hate and ignorance out there for it for precisely the reasons you state, i.e. it is a non-healing defender. In fact, unlike traps, it's a non-buffing defender too. He has been refused places on TFs who are asking for a defender because they "want a proper defender, not a plastic one". The hate that comes his way the more determined I get to play him. "TEAM WITH HIM UNTIL YOU LOVE HIM!!!!" I cry, metaphorically. Unfortunately, there is a lot of players out there (although still a minority I must add) who consider the sole purpose of a defender is to be a heal-bot for their precious damage dealers. Their understanding of the game is this... Mobs attack us, we attack them, the ones who are left standing win, heals help us stand longer - ergo we need heals to win the fight.

It's certainly one way of doing things, but I would argue that is a crude and primitive way of doing it. Very "tally-ho chaps - pistols at twelve paces". A fair fight between two evenly matched teams and the better team wins. Spiffing. But who says it has to be a fair fight? Your job, as a non-healing defender, is to ensure it is NOT a fair fight. Debuff their damage and accuarcy, hold them, knock them on their backsides, make them run away, debuff their resistences which give them less time and opportunity to do the team damage before they are defeated.

Basically you just want to do all you can to reduce the number of attacks, and the potency of those attacks, on your team. Then you can be safe in the knowledge you are doing your thing well. But, and I really can't stress this enough so I will underline it, do not let anyone convince you that a white shield in a blue circle next to your name makes you responsible for healing. It's simply not the case and the most likely occurance is a bad team or bad leader trying to make you a scapegoat for their bad or badly put-together team.

Enjoy. Toodles.

It's tough on 8 man teams for the lone defender to keep the whole team upright, especially those early sewer runs. I wouldn't call traps a late bloomer, but it isn't sparkling right out of the gate. When you have acid mortar and forcefield generator both going for you, it should pick up immensely.

Where did this debuffer/buffer distinction come from? I think you're overgeneralising.

Healing/non-healing and buffing/debuffing overlap.

Empathy - healing buffer
Dark - healing debuffer
Force Fields - non-healing buffer
Trick Arrows - non-healing debuffer

Traps is a mixed buff/debuff set.

BTW - two Empaths on a team can AB each other and keep everyone else double Fortituded and provide 24/7 Regen and Recovery auras. Chances are they won't, but their contribution can be much greater than two trick archers in my experience, if they do this. Which is a big if...

Level 8 is certainly no time to judge a trapper. It's around level 18 where you get (as a Defender), Poison Gas Trap, Acid Mortar and FFG. The recharge will seem painfully long at that point, but you'll see the powers in action.

No, Traps may not be all that in the sewers, but fortunately there's a game outside of sewers.

What do I do when a teammates health goes red? I run over, hope I have something from Traps to use (Seekers, whatever) then start shooting to either draw aggro or defeat the foe(s).

Traps and TA are not carebear sets. I think the player has to evaluate their own temperament. If a Blaster's red health bar makes you say "Oh noez, the poor blaster's about to die, I shall save him!" then Traps is not for you. If the same scenario makes you say "Venge (or Fallout) bait!" then yeah, debuffing may be up your alley.

The people who beat me here covered most of it. Traps takes a bit to mature. Even then, I find it one of the least effective sets at keeping your team alive despite themselves. If the Blaster is jumping headfirst into a spawn that can kill him in ten seconds, there's not a lot you can do about that. If a more durable character gets there first and soaks up the damage for the rest of the team while you set up, things usually go pretty smoothly.

By the time you have all your toys, you can probably run into most x8 spawns alone and gift-wrap them for your team. I'd stick it out until at least Poison Gas Trap to really start judging Traps. Seeker Drones is also very nice as a pitch-hitter tank.

(I've always thought PGT, Seeker Drones, Acid Mortar, or FFG should have been one of the first two powers to give you more low-level team defense.)

I will add that in general Defenders without healing abilities take longer to mature than ones with them. While the utility of healing drops off a lot in the mid-20s when people get SOs at the lower levels it is one of the better forms of damage mitigation. So at level 8 a Traps Defender doesn't provide a whole lot of mitigation outside of the defense from FFG (which itself is pretty powerful) but as you level up and get more of your main powers (and more importantly the slots for them) the mitigation picks up a lot.

The same is true for most Defenders, even those with Heals find the healing abilities sidelined a lot of the time at higher levels.

If people don't know how your powerset works that isn't your problem. Cast vengeance on their dead body then pass them a wakie.

*If its a player with 6 months or less on vet badges I'll send them a tell about how traps works. If its a 36+ month vet, sorry that's just ignorance on their part.*

When teaming, its a good idea to info what powersets people have.

Quote:

Originally Posted by seebs I tried to make a traps defender, and I sucked at it. I'd just keep plugging away, but there were other issues (including a serious clipping problem on his costume when running which was driving me nuts), and he was only level 8, so I deleted and figured I would at some point give it another try. But this leads me to a question: How is a traps defender supposed to work? In a lot of groups I've been in, there's been a serious difficulty in not having any healing to speak of, and I'm not sure Triage Beacon does much healing -- I don't have exact numbers to hand, but it didn't seem like it was doing much. I suppose the force field drone is a pretty core power, but this gets me to my general question: How is a traps/ defender expected to handle stuff, either soloing or in groups? What's the solution to "health bar has gone red", or do you just try to keep that from happening? My intuitive read is that, compared to sets that have at least some heals, traps ought to be pretty weak, or ought to have some huge advantages to make up for the lack... But I'm told it's a really strong set. So what's the trick? (Edit to clarify: Interestingly, /devices is my joy, and the two blasters I'm still playing are both /devices, because OMG SO MUCH FUN.)

Yeah, I'm not hugely worried about other peoples' opinion of my choice of primary/secondary, but I would like to know how to play them competently, and I was having a hard time getting my head around the non-heal defenders. Now I think I get it, and I may well start levelling a traps/something def. I don't really totally get it, but I do know that I absolutely LOVE /devices on blasters. (I have energy/devices and archery/devices, and love both. I'm aware that the synergies aren't incredible, but SO MUCH FUN anyway.)

Part of the problem is that the way it seems most MMO's are set up you have a class that is considered " The Healer " and in City of Heroes hero side this is the Defender Class in most cases ( although Controllers who take Empath secondary can heal as well )

The expectation of many is that anything with e Blue Shield heals or qualifies as a healer. However nothing could be further from the truth. The main job of a defender is the role of buffing and debuffing. Buffing empowering or helping your friends directly and debuffing which is weakening the enemies so they hurt you less and also making it easier for your team to take them down.

The problem with CoH is this. Many times people might not have a clue on what you are doing to actually help them or debuff the foes. However they CAN see little green numbers floating over their heads which makes them feel more secure.

Any player who understands the game realizes that a team with good buffs/debuff has less need of a true healer. You will find yourself in a place where you cannot directly influence whether a player lives or dies. Also at level 8 your character hasnt even begun to blossom yet. You really havent gotten any of your core powers nor do you have the effectiveness of SO's or IO's yet.

Dont be discouraged. Use this time to enjoy and try out different powers with your traps. You can always respec later. Also know you cannot heal stupidty, poor team play, or bad power choices or bad builds. I was on a team once where the Willpower tank KEPT dying... and we were like WTH ?? Then I clicked on his powers. he neglected to take Mind Over Body which is a CORE power for a WP tank.

Understand this as well. Defending isnt always about HEALING... Classic Case..

I was asked to join a team as a Rad/Rad defender. As i join the leader says OK we finally got a healer. I said well guys I am a Rad/Rad defender I have ONE very small AoE heal. Dont expect that to keep you alive. The leader said " Just HeaL"

So we are taking on a mob. I start laying down the rad debuffs and using my attacks. We run through about three mobs at a good clip. We got in a little over our heads because two mobs were close together and we had soe trouble but we made it through..

One guy goes.. HEY you arent healing a lot. I said well again I have a small heal and I was doing other things to help keep the team. This gusy says yeah but I saw you attacking and defenders have crappy attacks so you should spend more tike healing..

Then the leader says I got you on the team to heal so JUST HEAL...

I said ok.. fine... Next mob.. NO debuffs.. only healed... they died in about 30-40 seconds in... and all I did was heal..

Leader says WHAT HAPPENED...

I said.. WELL...

See I was throwing out Radiation Infection which has a massive to hit DEBUFF making it hard for them to hit you and a massive defense DEBUFF making it easier for you to hit them.. but i stopped doing that to heal

Oh yeah and that Enervating Field was causing them to take about 30% more damage from every attack. But I stopped doing that to heal..

And that Lingering radiation that DEBUFFED the recharge of their powers.. yeah i didt do that so I could heal..

Oh yeah and I stopped throwing my Neutron Bomb and using my Irrdiate which both have decent sized defense DEBUFFS..

Oh yeah and I stopped casting Accelerate Metabolism before each mob which BUFFED your recharge time. your end recovery AND causes you to do MORE damage..



Needless to say they got the point...

This comment's not really pertaining to how non-healing defenders work, but you really shouldn't judge any powerset by level 8. Or by level 20 even.

Now, as far as traps:
My traps/pistols defender is so much fun after I got the following each with 3 common IO recharges:

1. Acid mortar
2. Poison Gas Trap
3. Seekers
4. Caltrops

Web grenade, I have an acc, end redux, and immobilize.

I've respecced out of triage beacon, the powers listed above (yes, even web nade) do so much more for me than beacon did. I found traps having an average kill speed for a defender. It's ridiculously safe though, and your level of safety (and that of your team) rises exponentially as you gain levels and more powers.

EDIT: note, the 4 powers listed above only have 3 recharges in them, no other enhancements because I've 6 slotted my attacks and 3 slotted FFG w/ defense. Even with just the recharges, the above four work great out of the box.