Personally, I hate herding on my Stone/SS as well mainly due to the slowness issue. The best I can do is teleport into a spawn, hit and taunt them a bit and then port out towards where the team is waiting. I don't know how you have Mud Pots slotted but I go for 3 EndRed, 3 Taunt and they seem to like it.
But as I'm a fairly newbie Tanker myself, I'll be curious to know how the more experienced Tankers do it. 
@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
Herding for the most part is pretty pointless.
It was great when you had no liimt on how many targets your aoe hit, i recall killing hundreds of riktimonkeys in one well placed aoe back in the good old days.
But today... why?
Aoes have a max limit of 16, unless the group is very scattered, it's sooo much faster for everyone to just jump into the middle and grab aggro.
With sapphic. Even on a 8 spawn, the group is too little to go over the 16 cap. Only a few are that scattered you need some tactics.
Most cases, i just TP in, do a footstomp, trow a fireball to the other side and taunt those who missed the first to hits. Mudpots to keep em bit more busy, wack a few, taunt a few, by then your party already whiped em.
Nearly every party has at least 1 troller, specialy a fire or earth can lockdown an entire group in seconds, making herding more a waste of time then it actualy helps.
Added, even on TF's, having a kin is not an exception wich helps alot for granite tankers. I tanked kinda everything to be tanked ingame (even hami once 
), you dont 'tank' alone, you fight as a team. You rely on your team just as much as they rely on you.
(eden trial full herd.. i miss those days )
50)Sinergy X/(50)Mika.
(50)MaceX/(50)Encore
Sign the petition, dont let CoH go down! SIGN!
The main reasons to herd are to;
It's a small team with plenty of AoE and its quicker to get everything in that room back to a spot for the team to AoE the whole lot in one go, rather than separately. Why use the same attack chain on 3 different groups when you can use one attack chain on 1 group?
It's a big team but the group that is next up is in perception range of one or more other groups. There doesn't have to be a room of death, only part of one and around a blind corner anything is possible why risk it?
Your the type of Tanker that is buffed by tight groups. If they're not tight and you have all the aggro then that's great that you can achieve all the aggro but poo that your survivability is lower than necessary and needed.
If they're not tight and accuracy with gauntlet is a problem, taunt is on rechg someone could be in for a rude awakening (hopefully Mr Fire Cages 2009 gets it )
That's just 4 reasons, not a lot to remember but it can be more efficient to herd. If an argument ensues on this for more reasons I got plenty. I don't assume a team of PvP builds IO setted and atleast 4 firekins etc.
Stone tanks are pigs to keep aggro with if...if other team players open fire early, but saying that if you're a bit slow then I would open fire just to stay awake and probably change my mind a sec later when my character is sleeping.
In pulling, aggro cap is okay, you can tp in, be seen by as many as poss, have mudpots effecting the bulk of the group and taunt the ones outside of it and tp back to herd point. (This is assuming you got TP, I rather TP than need a kin). Now should ppl open up before they get back to your mudpots their might be some time to regain attention before you lose it. The best time for people to open up is when they've seen you do an AoE Tremor, Fault, Seismic Smash.
Congaline of stupity in a really big room. Go round and AoE damage your way thru the room and come out. Have no one come in with you as you'll get aggro cap and they'll get their own aggro cap. Now as one groups dies the others start coming, done right, so you don't have to keep on getting anything only consolidating as they come. They will all come to you and your direction through that room will be a straight one.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Thanks for the replies, with your help I might learn to appreciate my little tankette more.
Well it is obvious that I really have to get in that tp somehow into my tank. Even if it is a terrible way to move around town. I guess I will have to visit the raptor salesman in the shadow shards realy soon.
Then I guess I should tweak my mud pots a bit. Less damage, more taunt.
Some good tips there sharon. I will see if I can use them next time For one thing I should defo tell the others to stay back and not do a thing until I say go. Also good to remember that herding is not that useful as it was before.
[ QUOTE ]
Well it is obvious that I really have to get in that tp somehow into my tank. Even if it is a terrible way to move around town.
[/ QUOTE ]
In the thick of it all its the best way to get around fast. If you go into granite mode on a balcony, the game may decide there is no more room for you and all those baddies on that balcony and lob you off. Best thing is to pick where you G mode carefully or have something to get back up fast.
[ QUOTE ]
Then I guess I should tweak my mud pots a bit. Less damage, more taunt.
[/ QUOTE ]
I just got dam mods in mine, it modifies my threat anyway and lingers on enemies. I would spend slots in taunt. You would need plenty of duration and the recharge down, 2,2,2 with IOs is good. The taunt is -range to, don't go them, let them come to you - if they can.
[ QUOTE ]
Some good tips there sharon. I will see if I can use them next time For one thing I should defo tell the others to stay back and not do a thing until I say go. Also good to remember that herding is not that useful as it was before.
[/ QUOTE ]
Lol Sharon XD. You don't need to say ready, be suggestive that the best time to attack is when you AoE and AoE when you would say Ready. If people have a short memory span or play their way anyway then as long as its not others they're compromising then its fine. If someone wants to act early and be the vengefodder then thats fine, if someone else becomes vengefodder then not fine in other words.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Oops sorry Shannon. That will teach me to rely on memory. And yes tp'ing will be a pain. Especially because i avoided that power like the plague!
My mod pots do the max amount of damage I can get into them which isn't that much of course. Still a taunt might help.
Even if only for the -range
And I will try to come up with a good suggestion phrase.
Thing is in order to get over a ledge or about quickly with Mess protection there is not a lot else to lean on for a travel power. Running with just rooted on don't have to be bad, but granite, that's something else.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I have 5 level 50 tanks and I herd with all of them and my stone/stone is by far my least favourite, simply because I feel the movement/recharge penalty for granite isn't worth it. That said, all can be solved with a good reliable speed boosting kin.
On herding itself, I am a huge advocate of it, and I arrived in the game after the taunt cap was introduced. Obviously it isn't always necessary, but I herd more often than not. The main reason is the aggro control. If I herd a couple mobs around a corner then I know where they all are. I am not looking round in case something I didn't know was there is hitting on a squishy. Get some controllers in the team and the few that do escape your taunt are quickly dealt with.
As for herding technique, I would suggest a few golden rules. Firstly, be thorough. A couple of passes through a mob to make sure the taunt aura has them etc. Secondly, communication is key. Set up a couple of binds to quickly tell your team you are herding and where to, another asking them to "back up" to fire off on your way back in case they are a little impatient is also reccomended. Thirdly, once you are hidden, STAY HIDDEN. You will find that should your team kill quickly enough you will get a few more trickling through to the herd point mid-fight. Finally, one you are probably aware of but thought I'd mention it anyway, always herd back towards the team, never away from them. Obviously you can't always manage that but it should be your aim as often as possible.
Herding isn't for everyone and as we have seen plenty even question the point of it. But as a herding tank those are my views. Hope they help. Happy tanking.
Herding is fine in a team of up to 5 people, more than that and specially in an 8 man team, herders should be kicked immediately for making the rest of the team waste time for no valid reason.
I think herding is fine from 5+ members myself, since a lot off debuffs and such are aoe centric and get maximised effect when all are in range instead of everything being scattered all over the place. Herding feels more efficent to me and much safer. Thats on unyielding/invinci though.
[ QUOTE ]
Herding is fine in a team of up to 5 people, more than that and specially in an 8 man team, herders should be kicked immediately for making the rest of the team waste time for no valid reason.
[/ QUOTE ]
Some people, using your term for herding, herd unnecessarily, its true, but then some people herd for some necessity that others may not see.
I wouldn't follow a binary set of rules on it, like oh noes its a +5 team. It could simply be that someone is still getting to know their tank or their team.
Intention is the most important thing. I'd rather simply be sure about whose side people are on. Some people would rather play safer than sorry. With every team being different you play to the expectations your most accustomed too.
Do you only invite IO setted builds/fotms for the greater pace they can keep up with?
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Herding in a team of 5+ is plain stupid except in very few particular situations. It's just a waste of time for the whole team while the tanker feels uber at the expense of the team, IOs or not, plus most AoE debuffs can be reapplied easily on next group so can't see a point there either.-
3 Slots in sprint and grab that run speed unique. Without rooted u can run slowly but not unusably so.
TP is essential for a stone tanker.
And playing mine I tended to point blank most groups only herding where needed. As opposed to my ice tanker where herding became like an addiction.
[ QUOTE ]
Herding in a team of 5+ is plain stupid except in very few particular situations. It's just a waste of time for the whole team while the tanker feels uber at the expense of the team, IOs or not, plus most AoE debuffs can be reapplied easily on next group so can't see a point there either.-
[/ QUOTE ]
To be honest I find that a very ignorant point of view. Granted, it may be your preference from your own personal experience, but it is no where near as matter of fact as you would suggest. From my own experience, from both a tank and a non-tank point of view, herding teams are the fastest and safest for all. It helps the tank control the aggro, it helps the AoE damage dealers, it helps the single target buffers as all the team are in the same place, it helps the empath for the same reason, it helps the rad/cold/storm/dark defenders with their anchor debuffs, in fact the only toons I'd say it held back were the more single target toons such as broadsword etc.
Now don't get me wrong, I am not saying it is the only tactic that works and I am not saying everyone will enjoy it (would be a very dull community if we all enjoyed the same thing), but it certainly isn't "stupid", a "waste of time", and designed merely to pander to the ego of the tank. Whether it is a tactic for you or not there are absolutely undeniable merits to the tactic.
It is interesting you claim it is for the benefit of the tank's ego, though. When I have been tanking I have often observed that the ego of the Scrapper is the most prevalent in matters of the herding debate. The old "look at me, I am really uber and strong! I don't need a tank to take aggro for me and I can kill stuff quick too" mentality. I can see how herding teams can be frustrating and seem like a lot of waiting around for nothing for some scrappers, but the vast majority of ATs and builds I can see blossoming in a team with a good herding tank.
It is entirely down to play style and situation I guess, and the best tanks will be the ones that know when to herd and when to rush, but dismissing herding entirely would be very foolish. It is an extremely valuable string for any tanker to have to his bow.
[ QUOTE ]
3 Slots in sprint and grab that run speed unique.
[/ QUOTE ]
Pretty sure it isn't a unique. You can have 5 of them in any build.
[ QUOTE ]
I think herding is fine from 5+ members myself, since a lot off debuffs and such are aoe centric and get maximised effect when all are in range instead of everything being scattered all over the place. Herding feels more efficent to me and much safer. Thats on unyielding/invinci though.
[/ QUOTE ]
It might be more efficent. It's certainly a lot duller standing there waiting for the tank every 2 mins and then just nuking the resulting spawn.
Efficency is overrated. Fun is more important IMO. Standing there watching a tank show off reminds me of i4 days when playing with a Herding Tank made one feel like they were there just to bulk up the spawn sizes.
That said I like a Tank who knows the nasty spots on a map where there are 2 or 3 spawns close together and deals with it by herding.
Herding when necessary is good, herding all the time is a snore-fest.
2 minutes? Less than a minute per spawn isnt much. Also i enjoy effiency thus making it fun for me.
EDIT: I also enjoy non herding teams aswell but i feel more safe knowing that the tank can control the aggro.
[ QUOTE ]
2 minutes? Less than a minute per spawn isnt much. Also i enjoy effiency thus making it fun for me.
[/ QUOTE ]
But it's unnecessary and dull.
Was on with a Herding tank 2 weeks ago, sure it meant my WS could do AOE carnage but after a mish or two is was "zzzz". Happily in the third mish we faced those Defense debuffing robots (Neurons?) and after a spectatular cascading defenses failure wiped the tank we ended up playing in a more normal style with me taking the alphas instead and everyone just piling in
Full teams who enjoy waiting for tank to bring the herd are just plain lazy or don't have a clue how to play the game, and efficiency is not related here, as Carni said, it's about fun. Only in certain situations, very few of them, herding on 5+ teams is justified. Another thing is that due to lack of basic skill, you and your team need the tank to bring foes in a silver tray, but that doesn't make herding good on large teams, just shows up a poor team.
If a scrapper is not making a tanker sweat to arrive first into mobs, then the scrapper is not doing his job properly.-
To me herding is slower and plain boring 
First of all, the tanks i've grouped with have for the most part been rubbish at it, often scattering groups rather than bunching em up. Secondly i tend to play mostly damage heavy ATs (Scrappers, Blasters and Brutes), i can often obliterate a group before a tanker manages to get them where he planned to.
Especially hate herding on my brute as i see my precious fury bar tick down between each group.
Like an itf i did a few days ago. The desktop general we had for a leader insisted on herding, so i stood there... waited...waited...waited, then i could kill the group with shield charge and lightning rod, then it was back to waiting...waiting... waiting.
Unless the groups are spread out, just let herding die peacefully. To me it's seems that a few try stick with it, regardless that the main point of it was patched out in issue 3/4 or so.
[ QUOTE ]
Herding in a team of 5+ is plain stupid except in very few particular situations. It's just a waste of time for the whole team while the tanker feels uber at the expense of the team, IOs or not, plus most AoE debuffs can be reapplied easily on next group so can't see a point there either.-
[/ QUOTE ]
A lot of tanks like to herd whilst the team is finishing off the last group. That could be even in a team which is fotmed. It has the next group ready. There is no waiting.
Waiting may come when more than one person is likely to get aggro cap or more than they can handle, because pulling is the sensible option. Waiting may come because you can't trust to leave people alone for 5 secs or you can't trust people to have your 6 in time. In a team today a Dark Def had Darkest Night and didn't use it. So many more things that could go on in favour of the team yet don't.
Sometimes that 8 man team isn't as ideal for you vs enemy as you may think it is and so you may have to mitigate by more than one means if you can. Be it buffing your own powers like invincibility or hitting as many as possible with AoEs, AoEs that don't necessarily include damage but damage mitigation instead.
I think establishing a train of thought based around 1 tank or 1's own tanks, teams, would be very silly.
Generally I may only herd 3 times in a mish, unless I deem otherwise as its quick anyway. I regard tending to the enemy as herding so even though it just looks like I pulled enemies tight to max out cone attacks and given them a wall to hit back to, its herding.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
[ QUOTE ]
Another thing is that due to lack of basic skill, you and your team need the tank to bring foes in a silver tray, but that doesn't make herding good on large teams, just shows up a poor team.
[/ QUOTE ]
I see that, when Tankers feel the need to take Tough and Weave that it shows up a poor team. A team often can do way more damage mitigation than they ever do but they don't and so Tanks become less offensive and built more to have people shoot fish in a barrel. All powers offer flexibility just as different methods suit different people. What's stupid is not subjective to the stupid. Peoples idea of fun differs too.
[ QUOTE ]
If a scrapper is not making a tanker sweat to arrive first into mobs, then the scrapper is not doing his job properly.-
[/ QUOTE ]
Scrappers don't make me sweat, even if they run in. I may stop and think "Oh dear" and see them instantly die. I don't believe in teams following them in either as they tend to enter dangerous points where they risk the team with more than the team can handle. Easily with more than any Stone tank can recover. You cant defy game mechanics. Ofc every team should be judge on its own merits and ofc I don't base my views solely around a level 50 game. I base things and what should be done by what one can see.
Scrappers tend to lack knowledge about anything but themself. I do on mine at times as it's less about support and more about fun.
I do often set up groups for Tanks WELL (not compromising others badly) on most my Scrappers especially with Willpower but I do see that Tanks look out for the team more than put their bodies to their own personal XP or damage over time. Often a Tank will be still with the team helping, supporting whilst I have gone off and got the next set up for just in time interception by the Tank. I know they could be off ahead and I could be finishing up but rather than tell people how to play you keep the pace going by doing something somebody could be, yet aren't.
Scrappers can lead in DPS but when it comes to potential teamwipes they're better at that too. I would rather think there is a player behind an AT, whose paid and have a right to play just as much as I do than just say what Scrappers can, can't or should be doing.
If you don't like someone don't team with them. I wouldnt kick a Tank for doing his job, keeping aggro off of the squishies.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
"Herding" taken to be "gathering any nearby foes around you for better application of AoEs" is fine.
"Herding" taken to be "gathering half the map whilst the rest of your team falls asleep" is not.
The worst kind of herding tanks also have no concept of the aggro cap, and try to corner-herd entire room(s) of more than 20-30 foes at a time. The best kind simply AoE one group, taunt another and gather them together (standing between them usually if they're "prefer melee", corner pulling as a last resort or if they're "prefer ranged") for AoE application. Less than 16 foes each time, and less than ten seconds worth of running about.
Stomp, Taunt, AoEs, Dead.
Next mob please.
Certain situations such as the laboratory map's "room of death" where mobs are on overhangs above you tend to truly seperate the good tanks from the bad tanks. That's one time I would justify corner pulling, using the map geometry to herd two groups at a time (mobs immediately above you FIRST, ALWAYS).
... I've also tanked for 8-man teams on both Scrappers and Blasters! 
Survivability and aggro control tend to come down to player skill and a given toon's build more often than what AT you happen to be on.
The noble art of herding.
I don't often play tanks. My highest tank is a level 38 Stone/Stone tank. I hardly play her because I consider myself a terrible tank. Not because I keep dying but because my party-members do. Last try was a failed ITF. One of my problems is the gamer skill to herd with success.
It sounds so easy, run into the room, pull the mobs behind you,stand around the corner and let the aoe begin. But as a stone (not that i am doing so great on other sets) I got some problems. For one thing I am either slow or I am squishy. In granite form with rooted on I can withstand serious damage but hardly move an inch. Every other combination can and will result in the occasional death due to lucky hits, stuns, misclicks etc. But that's the tankers lot. Another problem is that even with mud pots the enemy seems hardly impressed by my passing them and refuses to run along. I tried hitting them, I tried using taunt but nothing is working with satisfaction. So how can I make my little stone/stone tankette perform better at this handy skill? So that I can tank proudly and not feel like the worst tank ever?