Yesterday I was in a team with a pretty good tank but they tanked at points where other members of the team could, if they were not careful or plain unlucky, attract groups from nearby. So some pulling could of helped. On each fight start I was ready to eat popcorn for a bit before realizing they were actually gonna fight where they were, we got in trouble and then more came and then more came XD but v good team really. It would of helped to actually not run out of endurance before all mobs were dead and it would of helped if some squishy wasn't one shotted. The highest level was on Invincible and the average level of the team was perhaps 2 levels lower so not the best xp/time but all the same some people love a good fight now and then and that it was. It was an enjoyable night despite all the things that happened to learn from but anyway sometimes better survivability comes from making judgment calls that other people won't see and if they don't see it then they may complain.
You can base why your herding on the average level of team to enemy, powersets, type of enemy, enemy perception and map and numbers of, whilst some people only ever run in.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
And yet, as per what you're saying about your last night's experience, seems the most sensible way would had been pulling rather than herding if I am reading correctly.
From what I've seen so far ingame, most herders on an 8 man team just do so to please themselves and in some cases, telling others off when doing same thing on two tanker teams, like not everybody has the right to do same thing, I've also found this happens far more in EU teams, in my short US experience, usually players who don't adapt to team leader orders are plainly kicked off the team, which in most cases I've found out it's a good practice. Most groups in an 8 man team (and 5+) will be close enough to aggro cap to not justify herding above other methods, such as pulling or simply taking alpha, and in few occasions depending on their spawning position, herd. Post lvl 32 this is specially true since any decent built controller who knows what he's doing (and even a Dark Defender) can take care of most aggro by himself relegating the tank to a secondary role if he wishes to do so, so even less point to make the team waste time herding for the sake of doing so, again, except in few occasions where yes, the most advisable course of action is herding and someone in the team, not necessarily the tank if he's not team leader, needs to assess the call about how to proceed.
However, herding per se is the least useful tactic in most occasions on large teams and most of the times I've seen it done it has been due to player's ego or to cover for blatant team weak skills, which don't necessarily mean players weak skills, I mean team skills, which could be sorted by team leader, not nnecessarily by the tanker whoever the tanker is, and as I've seen mostly in this game herding on large teams usually leads to popcorn while waiting. Some of you are keen to give others the benefit of doubt, for good or bad, Im not that keen since Ive found myself too often utterly bored on such teams where the tank is not merely assessing the situation but just perma-herding without taking care of the aggro cap for his own fun or even worse, trying to tailor the right team to facilitate herding.
Herding for me is a no-no 90% of the time and when such thing happens on a team, I prefer to find an excuse and do something else rather than enduring it.-
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And yet, as per what you're saying about your last night's experience, seems the most sensible way would had been pulling rather than herding if I am reading correctly.
From what I've seen so far ingame, most herders on an 8 man team just do so to please themselves and in some cases, telling others off when doing same thing on two tanker teams, like not everybody has the right to do same thing, I've also found this happens far more in EU teams, in my short US experience, usually players who don't adapt to team leader orders are plainly kicked off the team, which in most cases I've found out it's a good practice. Most groups in an 8 man team (and 5+) will be close enough to aggro cap to not justify herding above other methods, such as pulling or simply taking alpha, and in few occasions depending on their spawning position, herd. Post lvl 32 this is specially true since any decent built controller who knows what he's doing (and even a Dark Defender) can take care of most aggro by himself relegating the tank to a secondary role if he wishes to do so, so even less point to make the team waste time herding for the sake of doing so, again, except in few occasions where yes, the most advisable course of action is herding and someone in the team, not necessarily the tank if he's not team leader, needs to assess the call about how to proceed.
However, herding per se is the least useful tactic in most occasions on large teams and most of the times I've seen it done it has been due to player's ego or to cover for blatant team weak skills, which don't necessarily mean players weak skills, I mean team skills, which could be sorted by team leader, not nnecessarily by the tanker whoever the tanker is, and as I've seen mostly in this game herding on large teams usually leads to popcorn while waiting. Some of you are keen to give others the benefit of doubt, for good or bad, Im not that keen since Ive found myself too often utterly bored on such teams where the tank is not merely assessing the situation but just perma-herding without taking care of the aggro cap for his own fun or even worse, trying to tailor the right team to facilitate herding.
Herding for me is a no-no 90% of the time and when such thing happens on a team, I prefer to find an excuse and do something else rather than enduring it.-
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In my experience the waiting thing is entirely down to the tank. A skilled herding tank can get waiting time down to seconds, often just the time it takes for the team to assemble at the right spot. Jump into the middle of one mob, a ranged taunt on the next, and back to the corner where the team is waiting. Litterally seconds. May be 20 seconds or so for a 3 or 4 mob herd which, agaian, a skilled tank will ensure they come to you whilst you are getting rid of the first couple of mobs which cuts down on even more waiting time. That's why I don't buy the whole waiting argument, but I admit it largely depends on the skill of the the tank and good herding tanks are as rare these days as bad ones are two-a-penny.
I would say a good herding tank is one who knows when to herd, what to herd, how many to herd, and can keep waiting time down to a minimum when he does. For example, I do get frustrated when large outdoor maps are herded, such as the Dreck or Battle Maiden map. Quicker to go single mobs really on the vast majority of them. But on your standard indoor building/warehouse map I find herding speeds things up and is more fun. That is just my experience/preference, though.
But I do think that tarnishing all herding tanks with the same brush is plain wrong. There are some very very good ones out there, and they are, in my opinion, the best tanks about.
Had another bad experience last night with herding.
First they were +6 to me. Happily once I asked for an sk and refused to take no for an answer they were +3. Unhappily they were Nemmies and I was a Dark/Sonics (I really, really hate Nemises with that toon).
The worst thing was that since lots of Nemises have massive perception while he was gathering one bunch (not very well) a second lot would come around another corner having seen him rushing about and would start on us. Died twice (on a tiny, tiny map) and it was so messy and horrible that when he told us to Exit without completing so we could farm the mish (normally urrgh, in these circumstances URRGH!!!) I made my excuses and logged onto my Necro/Dark MM instead, where I found a nice small early 40s team and we steamrollered Crey instead (sans any sort of tanking brute).
So maybe it is overtarnishing them all but when you get a bad (or just plain unneeded) Herder it really is painful
The more I think about it the more it shows when someone herds without thinking how inappropriate it is for the team and, more importantly, the enemy you're facing. Not only did running about result in a herd plus an extra spawn of unherded but aggroed enemies coming around the corner but you really don't want to be herding together an enemy-type who actually give off huge PBAOE buffs to their allies when they die (ones which further screw up the only person with defensive debuffs and ToHit AOE heals on the team). The Eluding Paragon Protectors in the Creys mish ended up being less annoying than any of the 3 or 4-stacked vengence survivors of the Nemises herd.
Completely agree with that, Carn. A bad herder sticks in your mind and can completely ruin a team. I remember once teaming with a tank on a team of 4 and he was the highest level, his missions, set to invince. It was purple minnions to the rest of us. He insisted on running around herding however many his cap would allow which every time resulted in the rest of the team getting wiped. I simply said "This isn't the team for me. See you next time" and left. That is what bad herding tanks do, though, they herd for themselves, not for their team. I still maintan however that a GOOD herding tank can be a huge assett to a team. Good herding tanks know not to herd Nemesis or DE for example, or not to herd in caves, or large outdoor maps. Good effective herding is about good experience and knowledg in most cases rather than technique.
I suppose a herding tank is the same as anything though, there are good'uns and bad'uns. I have lost count of the amount of counter-productive stormies I have teamed with who throw their KB around without any thought. Similarly NRG blasters. Or illusion controllers letting their pets run wild and slowing everyone down in the process. Or Empaths who, when asked why they aren't giving out any heals, trot out the old line of "I'm more of a regen blaster, you know". That doesn't mean there aren't people who can play those toons and those rolls well though and to great benefit of the team. It's the same with herding tanks.
I have always found that if a herding team is slow and painful, it is the tank who is rubbish, not the idea of herding itself. But, again, that is just my own personal experience. Perhaps I have just been lucky.
Pulling = herding in my vocabulary, it well confusing I know XD
If I said "herding groups" then that'll equal everyone elses idea of herding I'd imagine. 1 group = 1 herd and if I move them then that's herding.
Herding groups is rare for me in large teams and sometimes optional in small teams.
I think most ppl have the same idea of whats good or not just we word things differently and so interpret differently. I could tell what ppl were saying but ppl prolly take me differently.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Just to give the perspective from someone who rarely plays tanks - I have a 50 scrapper and a blaster. When I team with my scrapper I'm less concerned about herding because it essentially makes me a less important member of the team. I do what I can to help though by culling the bosses as fast as possible and accepting that the minions will all be dead from AoE goodness from other AT's. When I am playing my fire blaster I like nothing more than herding. The closeness of the mobs after a herd means that fire breath and fireball will hit every bad guy rather than just half of them and leads to very quick killing. I would wager that any debuffers would love a tight knit mob too and possbily PBs and WSs.
Effectively the AT that loses out to herding is Scrappers and they were designed to be a soloing class anyway. There exists in all scrappers an inherent ego thing (I know from having one myself) that they want to take damage as well as tanks and do as much damage as blasters. This they cannot do, despite many people trying to argue that they can, and it bugs them to see tanks and blasters demonstrating this with a well oiled herd and kill. I think it is this that irks some people so much about herding and not the "time-wasting element" as with a good tank and a couple of good blasters herding will speed up the vast majority of mishes. I have never gone through mobs as fast as when I have had Cap-tastic herding for my fire blaster and that was in a 5+ team. Is it enjoyable for scrappers to sit and watch? From personal experience no, but then I rolled my scrapper to enjoy soloing the game and not to be an essential part of a team.
Sorry if this post was a bit rambly. 
I disagree beks. A lot of scrappers benefit from herding. If the spawn is herded Pbaoes, melee cones is easier to hit target cap. Even on a dm i would love it since fully saturated soul drain is nice.
Scrappers definatly does not lose out on herding. In all honesty, the only character where i actually herd myself (when solo or in small team) is my sword/shield scrapper.
Granted the situations where i've herded have been few and far between.
in 90% of the cases i'm on a full team and the spawns are often bunched up nicely already making herding just a time consuming waste. Which is a point i often love to prove.
It's nice when people actually can think past herding, i was in a team not long ago where leader wanted tank to herd, like all tanks herding seemed to validate his choise of AT and he started to herd, 1 min later he finally got em bunched up and we killed em off. For next group i just shield charged it before he could herd and the leader realised it was oh so much quicker to just rush in.
I will herd with my scrapper (and by this I mean "pull one group tight"), for a safer fight point that also offers range from enemy aoes, for the teams cones, small aoes and directing kb to a wall without a big spread...and I may only have only so much survivability. My personal fight duration on that group from start of the pull to my impending doom maybe 10 secs. If I start too early then the team won't catch up in time.
One risk I took was giving a team a benefit of the doubt the other day. I figured there was no reason to go right, no reason for them to pass a certain point on a map into enemy perception, right was a known dead end...well despite the fact we were dealing in doing objectives not diversions and sight seeing someone did. So in pulling ahead in order to lead in DPS and keep the pace you can get caught out.
As my Tank I would not of gave the benefit of doubt and stayed with the team, as my Brute I wouldn't of cared but as my Scrapper I will give the benefit of doubt. Scrappers don't necessarily need the team aiding them, and the team don't necessarily need the scrappers there as much as other ATs so it was an attempt at keeping pace towards meeting objectives.
I don't agree with just any scrapper pulling ahead and creating fight points, as some do it well and some do it badly, its better if they're Tank players tbh who set things up for the team, realize ambush points and don't automatically expect support for two reasons, one that they're survivable especially later in levels and two that many of them don't guarantee aggro control half as well as a tank so a debuffer could split from the team, debuff to help the scrapper and die in the process. If a scrapper is soloing a mob and the team can't get there then tough, if someone comes to help then they're potentially taking a big risk. A really good scrapper later in levels would of been alright anyway.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
If it took 1 minute then the tank wasn't the most efficient herder. And I don't disagree that Scrappers can benefit from herding - only that when herding is done their role in a team is minimised as they aren't required to take any damage. My Kat scrapper has two quite wonderful single target attacks which I use less when herding is happening so I'm not exactly maximising my build and I think it's that frustration that leads them to getting annoyed at herding more than other ATs.
Edited to add we were talking in guild chat last night about the merits of scrappers heading off on their own and were divided on that subject as well.
As far as I'm concerned - provided the majority of the team is having fun then it's okay.
I dislike scrappers heading off on their own when there is a group not even started or only just started, but I was on my scrapper in a TF team where watching what everyone did and when they did it was pretty painful. I felt it best to take my chances alone. Uzzi was in team on his blaster and decided to come with me XD . I couldn't keep him from harm at that level but did pull to lifts for a door click should it be needed.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Some scrappers will benefit from herding. Fire, Spines, Dark. Shields etc, but I think that herding teams hurt their egos more than hurts their effectiveness. Obvious exceptions being something like a BS/Regen, or Katana/SR etc. Not saying it is necessarily a bad thing. A lot of scrappers spend a fortune on their build and are pretty much capable of soloing an 8 man mission themselves and they, quite understandably, want to show that build off. Fair play to them. Problem is it isn't always what is right for the team. I guess that is a decision for the team to make at the time, though.
Personally I find that through the levels herding is the fastest, safest, and most enjoyable way to level in regular teaming. I have no problem with anyone who doesn't hare my opinion, as long as they can accept that if they find themselves on a team with me tanking then it is unlikely to be the right team for them.
If im the tank I will normally check out the rest of the teams powers to see whether or not its worth herding.
Dont get me wrong I love to herd, it makes u being the tank feel like your doing a good job knowing a mob is following you to a soon be death.
But if my team is normally full of damage and the tactical situation is all good, then I will rush in and just stand there taunting whilst the rest clear up. If theres 2-3 blasters on the team who have nukes then its good to herd and let each one deliver their 'night night boom!'. As well as if the team is full of AoE or debuff then again herding is the way forward.
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Like I said earlier I just don't like the mentality that every spawn and mission should be done by the Tank Herding to a corner whilest everyone else waits about.
I do love a Tank who will take Alphas, manage aggro, can do short pulls or will herd when the situation calls for it. A really good tank will change how he tanks rather than sticking religiously to a single playstyle (which is what a lot of herders tend to do).
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Most truth on this page
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Very much agree also.
The game's evovled which has now meant the best tactic is to use a variety of styles depending on the situation.
I have to admit way back when I was lvl'ing my first tank, I tended to be quite selfish and made people in the team wait whilst I herd. But that was back in the Pre-Crisis days (Pre-ED and Pre-taunt cap, call what you will ^_^ ) when you could taunt almost unlimited numbers and survivability was just plain ridiculous...
...hell'uva lot of fun though!
@Captain Solaris
Guild of Extreme Heroes "Strength is in Unity"