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To me herding is slower and plain boring 
First of all, the tanks i've grouped with have for the most part been rubbish at it, often scattering groups rather than bunching em up.
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The run in and hand clap? For example. Yeah I know I dislike it too, but on one claws/sr build I am likely to run in and shockwave. Sometimes its fine and sometimes its not fine. Not everyones character operates the same way as other - actually usually when I see handclap opener it's never fine. Atleast with a cone kb mobs can be directed into a wall, but if chances are they may stay there, "in" the wall. I might kb back into the team. Prolly a bunch of firekins anyway.
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Secondly i tend to play mostly damage heavy ATs (Scrappers, Blasters and Brutes), i can often obliterate a group before a tanker manages to get them where he planned to.
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Again with your powersets and AT tactics could be better off changing. Your a Brute. If I was on a Tanker I would either let you take all the alphas or work with the second group. You can't justify what's good in a team from your powersets tho, often Tanks take into account everyones powerset, and level. Ofc some Tanks will deem a good job despite Murray dying 6 times in a TF but there will be others who would call that poo as people do put different things first.
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Especially hate herding on my brute as i see my precious fury bar tick down between each group.
Like an itf i did a few days ago. The desktop general we had for a leader insisted on herding, so i stood there... waited...waited...waited, then i could kill the group with shield charge and lightning rod, then it was back to waiting...waiting... waiting.
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That Tank was in the wrong. Villains don't need Tanks, on a mixed team like that the job of who should be doing what blurs. Depending on the Brute it maybe safe or make more sense for some powersets to wait for the Tank or go with the Tank. Brutes are designed to build fury and just like Scrappers no Tank should really give that much of a toot if they get mullered so Tanking for them ain't even a consideration.
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Unless the groups are spread out, just let herding die peacefully. To me it's seems that a few try stick with it, regardless that the main point of it was patched out in issue 3/4 or so.
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Tanks can not but herd as the moment their aura hits foes they're herding already, if foes move 3 feet they're being directed so don't think I am all for getting lots of groups all the time everytime or having mobs travel 100 ft past 6 herdpoints for the most obvious one thats mentioned in someones rule book.
Knowing aggro control, if my TA dies on a team with a Tank then I won't be too happy, in fact if I can't debuff as soon as I would like to through fear of getting aggro then I won't be too happy but I don't expect game breaking impossible. My Oilslick hits 16, 5 blazing arrows on 16 foes for 1.16 sec of my time in herding up I would hope its done fast as the make on it isn't necessarily much and even thats only with some teams.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I actually like it when the Tank herds, as long as it doesn't take forever. Watching a Granite slowly crawl through the room is snore-inducing. Watching one quickly bounce about with combat jumping, I can handle that. Piles up the mobs nice and tight for my AoEs (especially fun on my Warshade).
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See, unfortunately I don't believe in hocus pocus tanking techniques to be disclosed every thrid Friday of every even month and stuff.
Dunno, you see Tough and Weave weak, I see the Phoenix rez as part of the attack chain... sorry, can't think of an appropriate word in English I'm afraid.
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Rise of the Phoenix is part of a concept and a fun power. Tanking in this game is not something that is the same as in other games. The fact that you can get back up and start again is a good thing. If you had an unstop crash and died in the middle of a mob then you wouldn't not want it surely?
As for Tanking, I don't get the hocus pocus bit. I get the bit where not everything is found out yet. Its not necessarily magic.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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I actually like it when the Tank herds, as long as it doesn't take forever. Watching a Granite slowly crawl through the room is snore-inducing. Watching one quickly bounce about with combat jumping, I can handle that. Piles up the mobs nice and tight for my AoEs (especially fun on my Warshade).
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I tp about, you can mudpot "tick" them and get back to a good point where they're all tight. I like tight on stonetanks cos it not good to chase things, gauntlet is potentially poo, recharge can be gimped as hell. I'd love to leave teams ahead of time on scrappers let alone tanks but you can't always predict the outcome. If I left the team behind on a Tank and some blaster ended up tanking an ambush I've failed my job. Job of the tank is to redirect and so mitigate attacks.
Shannon was always one to do one grp at a time since aggro cap, she would run thru and maybe footstomp centre, then turn to other side for knockout blow and direct cones. I may pull to not get ambushers from above or around a blind corner. Relying on being without fight pool there are times when as much eeked out of Invincible is required. You must of read combat attributes and seen how much def debuffs can affect a tanker. They don't have divine avalanche or parry to fall back on and it is their job to turn attacks their way. Ofc if a Dark def wants to flyby dark night everything and I intercept I am not gonna say no. I don't like repetition.
Its upto people how they want to play their tank at the end of the day.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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I actually like it when the Tank herds, as long as it doesn't take forever. Watching a Granite slowly crawl through the room is snore-inducing. Watching one quickly bounce about with combat jumping, I can handle that. Piles up the mobs nice and tight for my AoEs (especially fun on my Warshade).
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Was there any point in the LGTF last night you wished someone would herd though? Steamrollering was just as effective in plowing through all those Rikti.
Hell we didn't even bother pulling anyone really. I pulled the end, non-Honoree AV towards us slightly just so Honoree wouldn't pile on top of us too when it came through but that was the height of it and we did pretty well (with the exception of those damn Mitos)
I want to know, about this granite combat jumping about 
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
When I said "one" I meant "Tanker", not "Granite".
As for last night's LGTF? No. On a team that badass herding would only slow things down. 
Heck, we didn't even have a real tank, the closest we had was a damage-oriented Brute.
Now if only the damn Weakened Hamidon didn't make my pets go bananas...
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and after a spectatular cascading defenses failure wiped the tank we ended up playing in a more normal style with me taking the alphas instead and everyone just piling in
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So you are saying a herding tank "showing off", or in this case doing his job and taking alpha and aggro, prevented you from showing off on your fancy EAT, thus he was spoiling your fun and stealing your thunder.
A little playful radical interpretation of the text there on my part I admit, but the point is still valid. A tank taking aggro is simply doing his job. I don't see how ego comes into it.
I've been on ITF teams where it would of been safer if the Tanker had done some, lets call it short pulling, not far and atleast then even if some others didn't die there would be no end issues, sometimes you just run out of end and there are still more cos you couldnt recover it, even with stamina. I just don't see rules until there becomes a need for them, usually when I am on a Tank the first group sets the rules. I may tank it well for a patient team and then ask if they're happy with it, usually its okay and then I may tank the exact same way for a team who just balls it up and so I may change my ways, and if they're too good I may not see the tank as worth playing in that team and might get something else as its nice to feel useful.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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A tank taking aggro is simply doing his job. I don't see how ego comes into it.
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Since when is taking aggro same thing as herding?
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A tank taking aggro is simply doing his job. I don't see how ego comes into it.
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Since when is taking aggro same thing as herding?
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v. herd·ed, herd·ing, herds
v.intr.
To come together in a herd: The sheep herded for warmth.
v.tr.
1. To gather, keep, or drive (animals) in a herd.
2. To tend (sheep or cattle).<------Tanks can only herd.
3. To gather and place into a group or mass: herded the children into the auditorium.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
That another of your unfinished symphonies hun?
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and after a spectatular cascading defenses failure wiped the tank we ended up playing in a more normal style with me taking the alphas instead and everyone just piling in
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So you are saying a herding tank "showing off", or in this case doing his job and taking alpha and aggro, prevented you from showing off on your fancy EAT, thus he was spoiling your fun and stealing your thunder.
A little playful radical interpretation of the text there on my part I admit, but the point is still valid. A tank taking aggro is simply doing his job. I don't see how ego comes into it.
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Not at all, I'm quite happy for a Tank to run into a group, distract em and keep them occupied. Taking Alpha & general tanking != Herding.
I don't like the "extreme" version of that, where everyone has to wait while the tank herds, generally there's little reason to do so in the game except for certain rooms.
A Tank who insists on everyone waiting while he herds every time is a bit too "Stop-Start" for me. Plus I find it makes a lot of my chars either fairly obsolete (controllers) or (in the case of my Warshade) I hang around watching my lovely self-buffs expiring while they do so. There are a few ATs who excel at steamrollering and herding tends to defeat that due to too much hanging about. Warshades on the Heroes side and, in the case of cross-faction playing I can't imagine it's too much fun for Brutes or Doms watching their bars decrease while they wait for the Tank to herd 3 groups when they'd be better off steamrollering them one at a time.
Like I said earlier I just don't like the mentality that every spawn and mission should be done by the Tank Herding to a corner whilest everyone else waits about.
I do love a Tank who will take Alphas, manage aggro, can do short pulls or will herd when the situation calls for it. A really good tank will change how he tanks rather than sticking religiously to a single playstyle (which is what a lot of herders tend to do).
Oh and...
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prevented you from showing off on your fancy EAT, thus he was spoiling your fun and stealing your thunder
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Partial quotes for the win. If you reread my original post you'll see I said my "fancy EAT" was probably showing off more with them herding. It just bored me to tears doing it. I did enjoy it when the situation nullified the Tanks 1 dimensional playstyle completely though.
Maels post sums it up for me really. Aggro control and gathering them into a nice wee group is nice, taking that to an extreme is less so.
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Like I said earlier I just don't like the mentality that every spawn and mission should be done by the Tank Herding to a corner whilest everyone else waits about.
I do love a Tank who will take Alphas, manage aggro, can do short pulls or will herd when the situation calls for it. A really good tank will change how he tanks rather than sticking religiously to a single playstyle (which is what a lot of herders tend to do).
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Most truth on this page
"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"
Warshades do tend to take alphas extremely well though.
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That another of your unfinished symphonies hun?
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It's out of the dictionary. I will tank LR unaided with a Firetank whose got an unfinished symphony of a build using hocus pocus tanking and I reckon, the entire inner circle together with just a Trick Archer for support as I love them so much.
I am a big believer in letting a Tanker tank on their terms at the end of the day. People put things right thru experience.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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A tank taking aggro is simply doing his job. I don't see how ego comes into it.
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Since when is taking aggro same thing as herding?
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When did I say it was? What is is though is one very viable and effective method of achieving it. Quite simply, when everything is in the same place it is easier for the tank to keep and control the aggro. It is easier for many other ATs too to be able to make the most of their powers. Healers, buffers, controllers, and pretty much anything AoE based. That doesn't encompass everyone admittedly, but it shows that there are times, quite often in my experience, when herding is the safest, fastest, and most efficient way to play the game.
Whether or not that is the most fun to be had playing the game is purely a matter of personal opinion. I love AoE teams. I love seeing hundreds little numbers floating up and mobs simply melting away. To me, that is fun and a very enjoyable way to spend my game time.
It seems quite simple to me. If you don't like herding and herding teams then don't stay in one. If you don't like non-herding teams then find a herding one. Plenty room for all and plenty other people to team with. But to say very matter of factly that herding is rubbish, useless, and isn't fun is just plain ignorance. To be able to effectively herd when necessary is a very useful string to any tank's bow and if the tank feels this is the way for him to be most effective at his roll, comfortable, and, more importantly, enjoy it the most, then fair play to him, he is a herding tank and there is absoluterly nothing wrong with that at all. As you say, it is about fun, and that includes that of the tank.
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I am a big believer in letting a Tanker tank on their terms at the end of the day. People put things right thru experience.
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I agree with that 100%.
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It seems quite simple to me. If you don't like herding and herding teams then don't stay in one. If you don't like non-herding teams then find a herding one. Plenty room for all and plenty other people to team with. But to say very matter of factly that herding is rubbish, useless, and isn't fun is just plain ignorance. To be able to effectively herd when necessary is a very useful string to any tank's bow and if the tank feels this is the way for him to be most effective at his roll, comfortable, and, more importantly, enjoy it the most, then fair play to him, he is a herding tank and there is absoluterly nothing wrong with that at all. As you say, it is about fun, and that includes that of the tank.
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I agree with this, so I usually vote with my feet.
That doesn't mean my opinion (and everything here is purely my own opinion) that herding isn't fun is pure ignorance in any way. I wouldn't accuse anyone who is a proponent of herding to be ignorant either, we just have differing opinions on what we find fun.
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To be able to effectively herd when necessary is a very useful string to any tank's bow
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Again I agree with this too, but my opinion about when it's necessary will obviously differ from others.
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It seems quite simple to me. If you don't like herding and herding teams then don't stay in one. If you don't like non-herding teams then find a herding one. Plenty room for all and plenty other people to team with. But to say very matter of factly that herding is rubbish, useless, and isn't fun is just plain ignorance. To be able to effectively herd when necessary is a very useful string to any tank's bow and if the tank feels this is the way for him to be most effective at his roll, comfortable, and, more importantly, enjoy it the most, then fair play to him, he is a herding tank and there is absoluterly nothing wrong with that at all. As you say, it is about fun, and that includes that of the tank.
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I agree with this, so I usually vote with my feet.
That doesn't mean my opinion (and everything here is purely my own opinion) that herding isn't fun is pure ignorance in any way. I wouldn't accuse anyone who is a proponent of herding to be ignorant either, we just have differing opinions on what we find fun.
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To be able to effectively herd when necessary is a very useful string to any tank's bow
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Again I agree with this too, but my opinion about when it's necessary will obviously differ from others.
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To be honest mate I was more referring to Nightmarer, who has repeatedly stated very matter-of-factly that people who herd or enjoy herding are "unskilled", "lazy", "stupid" and for all intents and purposes, wrong about how they enjoy the game.
In a thread where generally the consesus has been "well in my opinion <insert opinion here>, but to each their own", everyone else (including yourself) is largely stating an opinion based on what they enjoy and based on a premise that everyone enjoys different things about the game and has a different idea of what is fun within it. In contrast I find his views on the matter very ignorant.
Thanks for the ideas and insights! Will have to experiment a bit to see what suits me best. Hopefully I will learn how to herd and also important when not to 
I always struggled herding - I get carried away with 'just one more Fire Sword Circle' then there appears to be no-one left to herd. It is all good fun!
Golden-Phoenix - Lvl 50 Fire/Fire Tank
Oodja Nikabolokov - Lvl 50 SS/WP Brute
Baby-Phoenix - Lvl 50 Peacebringer
How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could Chuck Norris?
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Again I agree with this too, but my opinion about when it's necessary will obviously differ from others.
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The others must be ingame. I differ on the fact that if someone wanted to herd every group I'd just eat popcorn.
I am sure pulling to all types of map areas is good for practice, its the pulling passed 6 good herdpoints to the most obvious one that's not helping anyone. I think 1 herd should be done inside of 5 secs but herd messer's don't wait that long.
I do think Invulns or Willpowers might entertain pulling tight and in a way they can centre up for self buffs just cos of the people in the team.
9/10 the people who say it takes too long slow the thing down around a Tanker who could do it faster but has to think of others safety as its in their mindset as a Tank. Often people are too close to herdpoint and by being so are within perception range of the untaunted. Some people open up too early causing a spread making the idea of it pointless. Some auras just have such poo duration, if you add a debuff toggle to a group before the mob is consolidated you may find the debuffer tankmaging for about a sec or 2 and saying "lol I pulled from a tank" before dying....no you just opened up at the wrong time. They can do that though if they break LoS in a place where these mobs might head to and walk into the tank anyway.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Your last point is a method I like to be used on me when I'm bruting, I love it when corruptors bring me more SMASH victims, fury fuel and bodies to walk over, its also good for the team. I have not found anyone heroside to use this though, only on villains. I tried to explain it to a tank on heroes once when I was playing my defender but hit a brick wall too early on to pursue it
"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"
See, unfortunately I don't believe in hocus pocus tanking techniques to be disclosed every thrid Friday of every even month and stuff.
Dunno, you see Tough and Weave weak, I see the Phoenix rez as part of the attack chain... sorry, can't think of an appropriate word in English I'm afraid.