Are melee ATs slowly becoming obselete??
By
Bindweed,
Posted on: 2008-08-14 09:05 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Question: When people say 'farming,' what does this mean?
If you are after killing a lot of minion-level mobs, then you need AoEs and control. This why Ice Mages make good farmers in WoW.
If you are after bosses, you are far less likely to need AoEs and far more likely to need DPS. Scrappers are supposed to be boss-killers.
So, what kind of farming are we talking about?
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
The former. Farmers avoid bosses like the blight.
I really should do something about this signature.
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The former. Farmers avoid bosses like the blight.
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Sure they do.
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Or,playing devils advocate to a game that is allready verging on too easy, nerfs > Buffs.
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I think it's already there to be honest.
As for nerfs, sometimes they're hardly noticeable. I mean, it's not like it's ED all over again (Depending on your view point) is it?
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So what do the EF/TF stand for (since I don't think Task Force applies here, or I'm more confused than usual).
Energy Transfer and Total Focus
My feeble brain, by a process of elimination, concluded Energy Transfer and Total Focus. I can't say I've noticed any difference on my Energy Melee brute or Energy Manipulation blaster, but people say the nerf is there, and who am I to argue...
My game's still fun 
Ohh I see, thanks guys. Well, I have to say as well that no matter the nerfs I'll still play the AT's that I enjoy, including brutes/stalkers/scrappers.
Regarding Shen's OP, I personally don't find spines overpowering at all, the toxic DoT is minimal anyway. People have s/l resistance up to their eye balls, and the animation times, certainly in PvP, don't make the set overpowered.
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I did forget to mention the exception of tanks 
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And Brutes. Oh, and stalkers as well. Did I forget anything? Right, Widows and Soldiers.
This would leave Scrappers. I didn't take statistics as an A-Level, so do correct me on this if I'm wrong, but exactly one melee archetype out of a potential six melee archetypes being largely team obsolete does not, in fact, make melee as a whole obsolete.
This would in fact make the obsolete class itself the exception.
Chairman of the Charity of Pain; accepting donations of blood and guts.
Prophet of the Creamy Truth; "If it's empty, fill it with cream."
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I did forget to mention the exception of tanks
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And Brutes. Oh, and stalkers as well. Did I forget anything? Right, Widows and Soldiers.
This would leave Scrappers. I didn't take statistics as an A-Level, so do correct me on this if I'm wrong, but exactly one melee archetype out of a potential six melee archetypes being largely team obsolete does not, in fact, make melee as a whole obsolete.
This would in fact make the obsolete class itself the exception.
[/ QUOTE ]Wait, blasters and doms aren't melee ATs? 
They can be
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Nerfs in general:
Crikey. Do you people all play with some unified key-pressing chain, that I'm unaware of? "Oh, they've nerfed this power, I can't play anymore". Unless it's the mez protection on a tank (and even that's dependent on team), I fail to see how these nerfs have SUCH an effect. I mean, given the time I'm sure I could level a no stamina empath 'fender to 50, solo. It'd be a long hard slog, but it's doable. Take away any power from my main entirely (including fearsome stare, which is my opener), and what would I do? Whine about it? Say it's unplayable? No. I'd adapt. I don't see why everyone else can't adapt to the nerfs, instead of throwing sissyfits all the time.
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Biscuits. You are my God.
I've always found it ironic that in a game that is supposed to be about Heroes, there is so much girly whining going on.
@SteelRat; @SteelRat2
"Angelina my love, I'm a genius!"
"Of course you are darling, that's why I married you. Physically, you're rather unattractive"
http://faces.cohtitan.com/profile/SteelRat
Or so you believe.
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Nerfs in general:
Crikey. Do you people all play with some unified key-pressing chain, that I'm unaware of? "Oh, they've nerfed this power, I can't play anymore". Unless it's the mez protection on a tank (and even that's dependent on team), I fail to see how these nerfs have SUCH an effect. I mean, given the time I'm sure I could level a no stamina empath 'fender to 50, solo. It'd be a long hard slog, but it's doable. Take away any power from my main entirely (including fearsome stare, which is my opener), and what would I do? Whine about it? Say it's unplayable? No. I'd adapt. I don't see why everyone else can't adapt to the nerfs, instead of throwing sissyfits all the time.
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Biscuits. You are my God.
I've always found it ironic that in a game that is supposed to be about Heroes, there is so much girly whining going on.
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and i couldn't agree more with Biscuits
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Nerfs in general:
Crikey. Do you people all play with some unified key-pressing chain, that I'm unaware of? "Oh, they've nerfed this power, I can't play anymore". Unless it's the mez protection on a tank (and even that's dependent on team), I fail to see how these nerfs have SUCH an effect. I mean, given the time I'm sure I could level a no stamina empath 'fender to 50, solo. It'd be a long hard slog, but it's doable. Take away any power from my main entirely (including fearsome stare, which is my opener), and what would I do? Whine about it? Say it's unplayable? No. I'd adapt. I don't see why everyone else can't adapt to the nerfs, instead of throwing sissyfits all the time.
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And i could solo a master mind with no pets from 1-50 if i wanted to, but i dont.
I cant see what thats got to do with nerfs, people moan about them, because they [censored] up characters people have got to like playing, and have taken the time to level. Thats why they moan.
Its got nothing to do with the ability or inability to adapt.
Oh yes, its nerfs to melee ATs all the way:
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looking into Invul
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^^^
I added 5 lines to my todo list today, all addressing issues with Invulnerability. They'll likely be in I13, assuming I get approval. Yes, this means the -Def in Unyielding Stance might go away.
Again...pending approval, I13, don't take this as a promise, etc, etc.
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-Castle
I really should do something about this signature.
Oh my god...
How dare he anti-nerf Invuln like that? It's an outrage and melee chars are now surely doomed!
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Oh my god...
How dare he anti-nerf Invuln like that? It's an outrage and melee chars are now surely doomed!
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It's all a matter of perspective; if he buffs Invul then all the other sets are effectively getting worse when compared to it.
Curses upon you and your nerf-factory, Castle!
Way back in the Pleistocene (or was that the Plasticine?) on the original account, I seem to remember I had one of those Inv tanks that grabbed a whole room of aggro then teased them while I went to the shops, came home, made dinner, then watched a Peter Jackson trilogy. When I eventually returned, tanker was still standing, green bar untouched, spamming taunt. Then, one morning, there was ED. In charges the tanker - omg! Faceplant? But there are only 8 purple Carnies?! I fretted and mourned and heaped curses upon the head of Statesman and all his evil minions...
Then I just learned to be a tad more careful and pay attention to what I was doing and a couple of weeks later pinged 50.
I haven't played a lot of PvP so I can't speak for that - although in PvE I have played an AT that people once liked to call "uber" when it pretty much was "uber". When it was "nerfed" with ED I, like all the other tank-players, was initially horrified but it didn't stop me enjoying the character. I just learned to play less carelessly. PvP and some scrappers might require a reappraisal of tactics and approach too, but it hardly renders things unplayable.
My scrapper is still getting regular team invitations, my brutes less so (but they may be somewhat due to the Villains culture), and for what it's worth I still play a tanker and I still love having scrappers on the team as much as any AT.
So - obsolete? Not on your nellie!
Wasn't ED that did that to tankers, was the GDC.
ED was more a problem becuase we couldn't even double the defences any more due to the scale res and def enhancements were put on.
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Wasn't ED that did that to tankers, was the GDC.
ED was more a problem becuase we couldn't even double the defences any more due to the scale res and def enhancements were put on.
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I stand corrected. (It was a long time ago...)
Biscuits You should post more often, I agree with a lot of what you said. But remember the Forum voice is sometimes not the best voice to listen to
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To the OP I do not see melee ATs becoming redundant. I think they keep getting hit because there is so little risk whilst playing them, every other AT has its kryptonite. To be honest I play my controller and I feel that the game is more challenging. Yet when I play my Brute (I agree with the Col. It is one of the best ATs in the game), I roll effortlessly through missions. there is a kind of Zen to them.
@Boy Wonder
Quantum Flash - Ill/Kin Controller
Leader of the Legion of Heroes
(I rarely post, but several threads have wound me up recently, and I've come to the boil. Apologies if anyone's upset in advance).
MoSTF:
My 'fender (main) dies faster in the Thorn Tree room than the worst scrapper you can find, yet I've still been asked to be on that, despite them knowing that in advance. *If* I were to ever run an MoSTF myself, I'd happily take along 7 scrappers, as long as the team was fun/friends of mine. Despite me loving badges, actually enjoying myself wins everytime.
Focus:
My first 50 was a claws/regen. I used Focus for the KD combined with the KB from Shockwave. I was soloing on invincible from 5-45, and never noticed Focus being some awesome power that hurts stuff a lot. It was my mez/pull more than anything. If I ever get around to remaking the toon, I'm sure I'd not notice some major nerf.
Nerfs in general:
Crikey. Do you people all play with some unified key-pressing chain, that I'm unaware of? "Oh, they've nerfed this power, I can't play anymore". Unless it's the mez protection on a tank (and even that's dependent on team), I fail to see how these nerfs have SUCH an effect. I mean, given the time I'm sure I could level a no stamina empath 'fender to 50, solo. It'd be a long hard slog, but it's doable. Take away any power from my main entirely (including fearsome stare, which is my opener), and what would I do? Whine about it? Say it's unplayable? No. I'd adapt. I don't see why everyone else can't adapt to the nerfs, instead of throwing sissyfits all the time.
That said, they changed empathy/regen aura ages back to look stupid, and my old, old main was less fun because of it. Was also mid-30's, so I had less to do, but looking like I was in an amateur acting workshop pretending to be a tree wasn't that great for me.
IO's:
For the most part, all those bonuses are great if you PVP. The majority of people don't. Even the ones that do, they're kind of specific, so if you wanted to avoid (resist) immobs, for example, you'd likely end up making the toon weaker in general because of it. Unless you had some massive grudge against one person's character, I wouldn't count on IO's being the be all and end all of PVP. Even then, it doesn't include the player themself.
Even though I don't PVP personally, I like the fact that there's no "this build will beat everything" situation on the go.
Melee:
Recently, some of my friends have had a spat of making new toons. The majority of those have been melee. Despite my love for 'fenders, I still like playing the odd scrapper now and then as (personally, soloing) there's a lot less effort involved. I see scrappers as the pick up and play toons. Have half an hour to kill, and can't decide what to do? Radio mission with a scrapper. I've even been tempted to make something like 4-7 different scrappers and/or brutes(/human PB) recently, I just don't want to get involved in another character just yet, when I've got several others I'd rather level. When we get shields, I'll be making a BS/Shield scrapper, I've even picked the costume.
Farming with Trollers:
I farm with a Dark/Dark/Dark 'fender. It's possible to farm with anything, if you put the effort in. Fire/Kins are just faster at it. Doesn't mean turning your brain off and auto-piloting thru the same mission over and over and over and over (ad infinitum) is fun, just more efficient.
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I did forget to mention the exception of tanks
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This sums up the whole thread for me, and plenty of other similar threads. Not you in particular, Shen, but just the general "OH! NERF! PANIC! WHINE!" attitude that's about. It's people seeing a nerf on a certain thing and subsequently ignoring all the various buffs that come with it at the time and ignoring the big picture entirely.
Yes, PVP's imbalanced for melee. I've seen the brutes go on about Fury in PVP for ages, and I still don't know if it's fixed, (personally, much less care). But as the Devs try to make all of a certain AT perform similar, people just jump up and start moaning about their particular choice. It's not the Dev's fault that that person had picked the powersets that were overpowered compared to other AT choices (and I'm guessing *most* of the time that's *why* they picked them).
Nerfs are going to happen. Anyone who's been here for at least 1 patch is going to know that. I don't see why every single nerf needs so much of a hoohah about it, yet the buffs each time don't get a celebratory thread, praising Castle or BAB's on their dress sense or taste in music. No, it's almost always "The Devs suck, I'm rubbish now, WAH!".
Threads like this, predicting some server/game wide exodus of AT's is that childish and pessimistic attitude taken one step further, and people's inability to think past the next power in their attack chain makes me think I'm stuck in a game full of cry-babies and sore losers. Thankfully, I can look at my Global List, and know that all is not lost.
Also, I'll leave you with three predictions:
1.
Blasters > Energy Manipulation is due for a nerf in the future, PVP/solo it apparently (I've never had it past level 5) out-performs other Blaster secondaries.
2.
There will be a massive whinge-fest when it happens, lasting months. People will delete characters, people will quit, some continent will be washed away in a tsunami of tears.
3.
Someone will make a thread about ranged toons becoming obsolete, then later remembering that (s)he meant only blasters.