Are melee ATs slowly becoming obselete??
By
Bindweed,
Posted on: 2008-08-14 09:05 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I'm sure what I wrote preceding that warrented a sarcastic response but im buggered if i can be bothered to figure what it was.
[/ QUOTE ]I was most amused by the fact that you're usually complaining about the devs no doing anything, and when they do do their work you think it's unnecessary.
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In what way does that change affect game balance in any shape or form?
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By bringing what is quite likely the most overpowered (at least for ST damage) powerset closer to the other sets.
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How so?
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Especially given that the game is (including beta) 5 years old?
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...your point being? Do you honestly think they have achieved perfect balance during those 5 years?
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Well, I have to say firstly, perfect balance cant happen.
Secondly, If they havent achieved a decent level of balance after 5 years, that SIXTY MONTHS (i am refering to 5 year old sets not newer ones) then maybe they ought to just let them be, dont you think?
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And that Energy Transfer (and the set itself) has a massive trade off?
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What, a whooping 9% off your base HP? You call that a massive trade off?
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An interesting comment that really does make me wonder if you appreciate what balance should be.
Ahem. First off trade off no 1 is you wait 35 levels to get your first decent attack on Energy meee. And for several years 35 levels took a whole lot longer then than it does now.
That in itself justifies a trade off, cause what mug would play a set that hasnt got a decent attack if they didnt know their was a pay off was coming?
Second : that 9% (isnt it 10?) you talk about is 9% every fire off. So in the course of 1 fight that could amount to 30-40%. Now given we're Tankers who take the aggro that could in some quarters be regarded as risky. Hence the pay off to that risk is a mighty attack.
Thirdly; EM has no (please dnt mention whirling hands) AOE attack or damage mitigation.
my S/S Tanker can handclap them away and so avoid damage, or footstomp them, avoiding damage AND softening them up for my next attack or for the rest of the team.
(In fact if you add the fact they take more damage per fight than any AoE tank then add the 9% health deduction you get even more trade off.)
En/Melee has none of that. It is pure one on one. I think thats sufficent trade off for one powerful punch dont you?
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As for the SG crack, you are absolutely correct as any leader of any successful Sg will tell you.
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You missed the point completely, Castle is a power dev, and has nothing to do with SG's.
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I didnt miss your point. I was being ironic by saying in your unwarrented saracasm you hit on a truth.
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Oh, and being a co-leader of a successful SG, we're doing quite fine as we are.
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You cant possibly be a Leader of a successful Sg and not understand that the game needs massive SG support. Unless you view CoH as work not play that is.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
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You cant possibly be a Leader of a successful Sg and not understand that the game needs massive SG support. Unless you view CoH as work not play that is.
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*ahem*
You're not Max, so you can't POSSIBLY say what he can or cannot do.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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You cant possibly be a Leader of a successful Sg and not understand that the game needs massive SG support. Unless you view CoH as work not play that is.
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*ahem*
You're not Max, so you can't POSSIBLY say what he can or cannot do.
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Seems to be running just fine to me, we're hitting the population cap too but we have too many altaholics (no not me with my 3 accounts, its someone elses fault I swear) Other than that I think the SG runs just fine thanks
http://goehforum.homeip.net/index.php
http://guildofextremeheroes.co.uk/
I'd personally prefer new content to play than time spent on SGs as our SG's friendly attitude makes the current system work just fine. Of course it could be improved, but no big problems
"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"
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By bringing what is quite likely the most overpowered (at least for ST damage) powerset closer to the other sets.
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How so?
[/ QUOTE ] By increasing the activation time of it's highest DPA attack, thus lowering it's DPA and the overall DPS of the set. Basic maths, really.
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Especially given that the game is (including beta) 5 years old?
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...your point being? Do you honestly think they have achieved perfect balance during those 5 years?
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Well, I have to say firstly, perfect balance cant happen.
Secondly, If they havent achieved a decent level of balance after 5 years, that SIXTY MONTHS (i am refering to 5 year old sets not newer ones) then maybe they ought to just let them be, dont you think?
[/ QUOTE ] Of course perfect balance cannot happen. Which is precisely why MMO balancing in a continuous process. Especially in an MMO like CoH that gets so much new content additions which complicate the balance further.
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What, a whooping 9% off your base HP? You call that a massive trade off?
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An interesting comment that really does make me wonder if you appreciate what balance should be.
Ahem. First off trade off no 1 is you wait 35 levels to get your first decent attack on Energy meee. And for several years 35 levels took a whole lot longer then than it does now.
That in itself justifies a trade off, cause what mug would play a set that hasnt got a decent attack if they didnt know their was a pay off was coming?
Second : that 9% (isnt it 10?) you talk about is 9% every fire off. So in the course of 1 fight that could amount to 30-40%. Now given we're Tankers who take the aggro that could in some quarters be regarded as risky. Hence the pay off to that risk is a mighty attack.
Thirdly; EM has no (please dnt mention whirling hands) AOE attack or damage mitigation.
my S/S Tanker can handclap them away and so avoid damage, or footstomp them, avoiding damage AND softening them up for my next attack or for the rest of the team.
(In fact if you add the fact they take more damage per fight than any AoE tank then add the 9% health deduction you get even more trade off.)
En/Melee has none of that. It is pure one on one. I think thats sufficent trade off for one powerful punch dont you?
[/ QUOTE ] And why would anybody roll a character that would be good early on but suck at the level cap? End-game balance is most important when balancing powers, mid-game is probably the least important. And yes, EM is a fairly weak set AoE-wise (although not that much worse off than some sets with much smaller ST DPS). That still doesn't mean it should be so far before others in ST DPS. Especially since it's not a tanker only powerset, something that you seem to be forgetting.
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You missed the point completely, Castle is a power dev, and has nothing to do with SG's.
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I didnt miss your point. I was being ironic by saying in your unwarrented saracasm you hit on a truth.
[/ QUOTE ] So you think that a power dev should be fixing SG's?
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You cant possibly be a Leader of a successful Sg and not understand that the game needs massive SG support. Unless you view CoH as work not play that is.
[/ QUOTE ]If you knew how bad most of our SG members are at playing the game, you'd realise how hilarious that comment was. And I'd say an SG that has kept a reliable core membership whilst also having people come and go nearly from the start of EU CoH is successful, but your definition may differ.
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There still seem to be just as many Tanks as other ATs running around, so that might mean that there is a good balance, and no AT is more popular than any other.
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Tio my knowledge Tanks have always been the least played AT on the heroes side apart from the kelds. And, to my mind strangely, blasters are the highest.
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Think it takes a particular type of mindset to play a tank well. I've tried a few times and failed miserably. Decided to just stick to what I can do, controller and blaster type AT's.
I sitll think that ED was a massive problem to my AR/Dev blaster but the more recent defiance has helped to mitigate the effect a bit. It's still my least played toon whioch is a shame since it was my first 50.
Not sure about other melee toons to be honest, I have a BS/regen scrapper which I still play (yes, with MoG) but melee weas never something I really enjoyed that much. I just hope that one day something will happen to devices to make it fit together with AR a bit better.
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You cant possibly be a Leader of a successful Sg and not understand that the game needs massive SG support. Unless you view CoH as work not play that is.
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*ahem*
You're not Max, so you can't POSSIBLY say what he can or cannot do.
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Ahem. This is off topic. However, of all the things you ARE conversant in, being the main leader of a succesful SG isnt one of them.
You're the one who cant possibily know what's involved in getting one up to scratch and keeping it there for a long period of time. And 80% of what we have to do should be done for us. Starting with global SG, ability to email any and every member and a way to count how many members ytou actually have without counting down every time you want to know.
That's just the beginning.
One thing you'll never get me on is this subject.
You cant comment on how much value an SG gives to its members because you cant look at it from the ground up.
And respectfully, you cant comment on how much sheer out of gameplay hours is required to maintain such a group.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
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You're the one who cant possibily know what's involved in getting one up to scratch and keeping it there for a long period of time.
[/ QUOTE ]Because nobody other than you has ever done that?
Oh, and as long as you have a few nice and (somewhat) loyal members in the SG (and if you don't, what's the point?), running it takes very little effort.
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Ahem. This is off topic. However, of all the things you ARE conversant in, being the main leader of a succesful SG isnt one of them.
You're the one who cant possibily know what's involved in getting one up to scratch and keeping it there for a long period of time. And 80% of what we have to do should be done for us.
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And how do you know that, hmmm? You don't know me, you don't know all my characters. How can you possibly know that I may or may not be the leader of an SG? Do you base it on my lack of posts about SG's? Maybe I'm happy with how my SG is run, and know enough about the game to not need to ask questions?
You DON'T know the answer to that, so you can't say what I do or don't know. Just like you can't say what Max does or doesn't know. Knowledge does not begin and end with you, matey.
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One thing you'll never get me on is this subject.
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHA!!!
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You cant comment on how much value an SG gives to its members because you cant look at it from the ground up.
And respectfully, you cant comment on how much sheer out of gameplay hours is required to maintain such a group.
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You know, there's a great show on American TV I really must put you up for; they'd LOVE you!
Penn & Teller host it. 
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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If you knew how bad most of our SG members are at playing the game, you'd realise how hilarious that comment was.
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You insult your members. I dont care if my members are lousy players as long as they follow the spirit of the Sg and contribute in some way. That could simply be by chatting on the SG channel.
My SG has a full mix of good bad and ugly players and as I say, that's fine by me. Yiou dont have to be a good player to join. Juist a friendly, sociable one.
Besides, its the SGs remit to help lousy players improve if thats what they want.
Boy, chinese whispers eh?
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
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If you knew how bad most of our SG members are at playing the game, you'd realise how hilarious that comment was.
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You insult your members.
[/ QUOTE ]Including myself, yes. And they're quite happy to return the favour. 
It's just the way we do things.
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If you knew how bad most of our SG members are at playing the game, you'd realise how hilarious that comment was.
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You insult your members.
[/ QUOTE ]Including myself, yes. And they're quite happy to return the favour.
It's just the way we do things.
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I mean you cant expect us to lie and say nice things about MaX for a start
"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"
[ QUOTE ]
And how do you know that, hmmm? You don't know me, you don't know all my characters. How can you possibly know that I may or may not be the leader of an SG? Do you base it on my lack of posts about SG's? Maybe I'm happy with how my SG is run, and know enough about the game to not need to ask questions?
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I'm not sure if youre having a laugh here. We have discussed this before which is how I know.
And unless you have decided to build one since then you arent a leader. And if you are a leader of a LARGE SUCCESFUL one then you wouldnt dispute the crying need for major SG attention. Which was the point that brought you over to my post in the first place.
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You DON'T know the answer to that, so you can't say what I do or don't know. Just like you can't say what Max does or doesn't know. Knowledge does not begin and end with you, matey.
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If Max thinks that SGs are sufficently or nearly sufficently loved by this game then he isnt a main leader of an SG. Unless hew enjoys doing the work the game should be doing for him.
Can I be any clearer?
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You cant comment on how much value an SG gives to its members because you cant look at it from the ground up.
And respectfully, you cant comment on how much sheer out of gameplay hours is required to maintain such a group.
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You know, there's a great show on American TV I really must put you up for; they'd LOVE you!
Penn & Teller host it.
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I'm sure. But at least it would attract an audience cause im alive, controversal and always trying to look for better solutions.
I dont think one with you would attract an audience beyond the paint drying society. I mean that nicely of course.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
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And if you are a leader of a LARGE SUCCESFUL one then you wouldnt dispute the crying need for major SG attention. Which was the point that brought you over to my post in the first place.
[/ QUOTE ] How do you measure if an SG is successful? The amount of members? The average time members sped in the SG? The amount of prestige earned?
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If Max thinks that SGs are sufficently or nearly sufficently loved by this game then he isnt a main leader of an SG. Unless hew enjoys doing the work the game should be doing for him.
Can I be any clearer?
[/ QUOTE ]I already said I'm a co-leader. And really, SG management takes very little work, unless you choose to overly complicate things.
SG's in CoH are an extended friends/associates list, a chat room, a purely social tool. They're not the raid organizers you see in other MMO's, not loot distributors, and have no need for something as silly as DKP. Trying to make them more than what they are is quite unnecessary if you ask me.
By the way, Tanks are still valuable members of the team. Its only the optimised ones that dont gain benefit from them but then, thats true of any class.
I've done hundereds of missions, as im sure everyone has, without a defender or controller. And as long as the mix is ok, then we're fine. In fact, that's the time Tankers really do become the big man (person) of the team.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
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I'm not sure if youre having a laugh here. We have discussed this before which is how I know.
And unless you have decided to build one since then you arent a leader. And if you are a leader of a LARGE SUCCESFUL one then you wouldnt dispute the crying need for major SG attention. Which was the point that brought you over to my post in the first place.
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The issue here is what you would consider a LARGE SUCCESFUL supergroup. My criteria for that isn't the same as yours, and Max's isn't the same as mine. Success isn't based on that stupid leaderboard the game shows; success is based entirely on subjective issues.
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If Max thinks that SGs are sufficently or nearly sufficently loved by this game then he isnt a main leader of an SG. Unless hew enjoys doing the work the game should be doing for him.
Can I be any clearer?
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See above. It's ALL subjective. You can't go saying anyone isn't a main leader of an SG just because he doesn't agree with YOUR criteria for such.
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And respectfully, you cant comment on how much sheer out of gameplay hours is required to maintain such a group.
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I run a private forum. I run a private IRC server. Hell, I also run a private FTP server too. I know just what kind of outside hours are required to maintain stuff, and if you think a single moment of it ISN'T fun, then you need to seriously get out of leading SGs.
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I'm sure. But at least it would attract an audience cause im alive, controversal and always trying to look for better solutions.
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REALLY not sure you'd want to be on P&T's TV show.
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I dont think one with you would attract an audience beyond the paint drying society. I mean that nicely of course.
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Nice or not, that's a direct personal insult. Tut tut.
Actually, I've been on TV a few times. Neither programme was of the paint drying variety.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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By the way, Tanks are still valuable members of the team. Its only the optimised ones that dont gain benefit from them but then, thats true of any class.
I've done hundereds of missions, as im sure everyone has, without a defender or controller. And as long as the mix is ok, then we're fine. In fact, that's the time Tankers really do become the big man (person) of the team.
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Y'know... I have this feeling that you've totally missed the point of both SG's and the game as a whole; that of having FUN. When it becomes work, of or no benefit; then it's time to stop playing.
I personally couldn't care LESS what the mix of the team is. Good, bad, insanely stupid. The criteria *I* apply to a good team is FUN FUN FUN.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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How do you measure if an SG is successful? The amount of members? The average time members sped in the SG? The amount of prestige earned?
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All three. But I'm not being entirely fair here. A succesful Sg can comprise of 10 players who are friends and happy if that's what you want. So, in that sense it's relative.
I'm referring to the commercial aspect of SGs (as I always do).
My overall point revolves around the fact that the large successful, in terms of activety and attitude with in the group, are ones that help keep casual players happier and more involved with the gamne in general.
This helps keep them .interested in the overall game and in turn helps keep the subs going.
The improvement of the game is always my focal point.
SGs are a tool that the devs SHOULD HAVE fully utilised because basically, the more good SGs there are, the more people play the game long term.
And that's what I'm interested in.
Sorry, but if I play the game then in my mind i invest in it and want it to be as successful, the servers as full, as possible. I want to enjoy to the max and I want the people in charge to do the right things in that direction.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
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Actually, I've been on TV a few times. Neither programme was of the paint drying variety.
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I don't believe that really was you - those police artist sketches could be practically any rotund floating male in a balaclava.
By my mohawk shall ye know me!
my toons
Funny: Ee-Ai-Ee-Ai-Oh! #3662 * The foul-mouthed Handyman! #1076 * City of Norms #132944
Serious: To Save A Single World (#83744) * Marketing Opportunity (#83747)
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I'm sure. But at least it would attract an audience cause im alive, controversal and always trying to look for better solutions.
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REALLY not sure you'd want to be on P&T's TV show.
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I dont think one with you would attract an audience beyond the paint drying society. I mean that nicely of course.
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Nice or not, that's a direct personal insult. Tut tut.
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Im not here to insult you or anyone else. I wasnt happy with your reality comment quite honestly so slapped you back.
i have been on the recieving end of many of your barbed smiley comments before, FFM.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
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Im not here to insult you or anyone else.
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Cudda fooled me.
I really should do something about this signature.
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Im not here to insult you or anyone else. I wasnt happy with your reality comment quite honestly so slapped you back.
i have been on the recieving end of many of your barbed smiley comments before, FFM.
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You need more practice.
Oh man... I am SO gonna miss this forum whilst I'm away... All the entertainment...
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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Y'know... I have this feeling that you've totally missed the point of both SG's and the game as a whole; that of having FUN. When it becomes work, of or no benefit; then it's time to stop playing.
I personally couldn't care LESS what the mix of the team is. Good, bad, insanely stupid. The criteria *I* apply to a good team is FUN FUN FUN.
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Can you please get of my bloody back??? The ops question was "are Tankers becoming obselete."
I answered. In a non optimised team no. That was it.
I never ever pick a team. I join em and dont know or care if theyre good or bad. I just play.
Stop hitting me with semantics.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
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As for the SG crack, you are absolutely correct as any leader of any successful Sg will tell you.
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I think you'll find Max was being sarcastic there...
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Yeah i got that. Hence the crack .. crack. I'm sure what I wrote preceding that warrented a sarcastic response but im buggered if i can be bothered to figure what it was.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...