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Tanked hamidon
Pulled the big Quarry monster down the hole on a eden trial
Keeping the Arachnos flier off the team while they were fighting lord recluse on a STF
Kept the aggro of the teams when taking out the pylons on a mothership raid.
Not to mention all the AVs that ive pulled or forced their attention to me in various missions.
..and probably one or two squishys that ive saved when theyve attracted to much attention... or make that the entire team when theyve suddenly pulled a fresh spawn that was standing to close.
Does being able to da all these things due to a single power make me a "better" tanker?
I dont know, but I certainly think it makes me a more Versatile one..
[/ QUOTE ]Mostly doable without taunt, as you said yourself, so I don't see your point really.
On a quick note, I use it for damage mitigation as I am taunt controlling multiple AVs at times. I likes it, I am not the only one who does it and I think anyone who wants to do stuff like that, can. It may take some faceplanty to pull some things off with some of the more challenging tanks or teams but certain things are better gotten by trial and error.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Thanks shannon for an invaluable insight into the workings and uses of taunt. It is a power i had hitherto never ocnsidered useful but having you show me and point out how to use it well is very much appreciated! Sorry I had to dash off (perils of being on call 
) but I will most definitely be sampling Taunt on Golden to see how I fare with it!
Golden-Phoenix - Lvl 50 Fire/Fire Tank
Oodja Nikabolokov - Lvl 50 SS/WP Brute
Baby-Phoenix - Lvl 50 Peacebringer
How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could Chuck Norris?
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Mostly doable without taunt, as you said yourself, so I don't see your point really.
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Youre not seeing the point because youre to busy trying to figure out on which side of the discussion I am..
UNION
Officer Cuffz lvl 50 Inv/Nrg Tank
Badge lvl 50 dwarf/human Peacebringer
Dark Air lvl 50 Ice/Cold Corruptor
Ayre lvl 50 Storm/Elec Defender
Total Cat: @Officer Cuffz
"When I say interview, I mean engage in combat and defeat..." -Laura Brunetti, on how to deal with Warriors.
Your welcome and it was a shame you can't get on test server with your blaster.
In trying to imagine a tauntless tank and in doing certain tasks it could well mean that sometimes they may want to be a bit biased towards certain defenders for support or maybe the other players in the team are...get this..we need a and so on. I was really miffed at how Rads got to be so required if one wanted to go to bed at night whilst fighting Mary MacComber at one time.
As a Firetank myself I am stupidly happy with a sonic and team with one all the time. I could go tauntless with one. I could RotP alot and aggro may shift and then quite possibly no one would care. So there isn't always a need for taunt nor tough. Some Willpower tanker with no taunt may be considered a good player in another team and may of had things great right up until the PuG they met you in.
Versatility, flexibility, whatever, I do PuGs and I like my options and everything gets the "How will I tank it if I only had a so and so for support?" treatment. If I was biased about what types of defenders were needed for anything then I don't think I'd have room to complain if people were biased against me for having no taunt.
For Aggro control, Tanks like Ice/Fire for 99.99% of the game could easily wonder what the power was for and if teamed with a Bubbler, Sonic and Kin most the time could really have minimal use for it. So its not for everyone.
My firetank doesn't have tough and someone elses may not have taunt and so the 2 of us have chosen our limits.
Now as for RotP..take it!...6 slot it!!...love it!!
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
An Idiot's Guide To Taunt:
The Good Things About Taunt: learnable early, auto hitting, ranged, area of effect, good duration, doesn't suck up slots, doesn't suck down endurance.
The Bad Thing About Taunt: It does nothing. You have gauntlet so why kid yourself? This is a power that has no effect. It's a blank bullet you can spray over an area to get a slightly-better-than-normal Gauntlet hit.
What Taunt Is Good For: It gives you scope. More reach, more area, more often, more accurate.
What Taunt Is Not Good For: Defense or threat generation, ie, everything a Tanker needs to have.
Is It Selfish Not To Take Taunt: Heck no. Being able to actually hold enemies because you took a real attack that builds hate instead of a power that does nothing is called "smart". Playing a class whose inherent power is completely useless alone is called "team friendly". Anyone who won't group with you because you don't have taunt is called a "numbskull". All your attacks are taunts.
Should you Take Taunt Anyway: Yes, but don't burst a blood vessel over it.
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An Idiot's Guide To Taunt:
The Good Things About Taunt: learnable early, auto hitting, ranged, area of effect, good duration, doesn't suck up slots, doesn't suck down endurance.
The Bad Thing About Taunt: It does nothing. You have gauntlet so why kid yourself? This is a power that has no effect. It's a blank bullet you can spray over an area to get a slightly-better-than-normal Gauntlet hit.
What Taunt Is Good For: It gives you scope. More reach, more area, more often, more accurate.
What Taunt Is Not Good For: Defense or threat generation, ie, everything a Tanker needs to have.
Is It Selfish Not To Take Taunt: Heck no. Being able to actually hold enemies because you took a real attack that builds hate instead of a power that does nothing is called "smart". Playing a class whose inherent power is completely useless alone is called "team friendly". Anyone who won't group with you because you don't have taunt is called a "numbskull". All your attacks are taunts.
Should you Take Taunt Anyway: Yes, but don't burst a blood vessel over it.
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Nice Opinion. Mine differs.
Let me defend people who go one way or another.
Should people take taunt anyway.
No.
Your account, your character, your concept, you play how you want to play.
Why take it? The list is long and it differs not just with any powerset but with different powerset mixes.
The bit about it being a selfless power and my liking to see people take it on that value, is just a personal thing of mine. I may like people to take it but I won't fall out with people who don't..I would be a bit disgusted with people I know well if they didn't take it but all of them do. Some as far as on scrappers too come to think of it but they're on new characters now.
As with concept mattering, we play the game to socialize. People log in, they make a character that sounds great! Woohoo! Not knowing what to expect and with hopes that they are to be valued (be making friends). Now just as it wouldn't be fair if we chose a tanker with no taunt over a tanker with taunt or visa versa to join the team by the same token it wouldn't be fair to invite a kin "Cos they are better and they are the only thing that'll do" when a Stormies asked nicely for the last spot 5 minutes ago. I see tankers stop and say, wait can you see if you can get a <insert here> first. What taunt allows me to do is; no matter what type of Tanker or Scrapper facing any AV; any at all; it allows me to come up with a dynamic (having done most AVs time after time.. all except Romulus and the lower level ones we breath over.. it allows me to think up a dynamic that hopefully the team will comply with well enough and have hope. I love all defenders btw.
I use it to limit an AVs attacks so that they dish out a level of damage that can be handled. Tankers in this game are pretty much about controlling the battlefield, by directing and placing fire in ways that the rest can handle. Sometimes in teams versus certain enemies the best technique lies in kiting and by knowing what the AVs attacks are, their ranges, recharge rates, you lower the DPS to a level the team can handle. In melee AVs have their full attack chain and can AoE anyone else. Remember your not playing other peoples toons and so where they stand and when, can be a problem and we get to kins ftw etc.
Tankers in this game are more than meatshields or bricks. The game is about heroism and basically doing what is right because it is right, is what really matters. Any technique that prevents failure of a heroic act is a good one. If your standing and no one fell it's kiss the team time as it's a result of everyone.
One could say here; against such and such; as a Firetank with a really gimped team in terms of survivability; you should do this: <insert here>. But most people come to the game rather finding things out for themselves and I think thats best.
I don't like to choose players or prefer players because of their powersets. Tauntless tanks may dislike players choosing a tank with taunt over them. This is a bit of a clash because if its a team with just a storm/elec for support against an AV who AoEs like a demon they would naturally prefer someone that can lower the damage against the whole of the team just so that 02 would be fine as fast as it can recharge even.
If your in melee range and Mako Placates you, then thats it, without taunt your expecting the low duration of all your attacks and aura to keep aggro..was it jab last? I expect someone in the team to get killed. It could be the one whose keeping the team alive. To not get placated you can stand more than 50 ft away and taunt but he is a runner, hard to hit and immob at times so even in melee and especially given the fact he eludes taunt autohits and has the longest duration.
Some defenders are preferable but that is, as far as I am concerned due to pace but it also can be due to lack of; either knowledge or the ability to work with the less desirable defenders. My taking of taunt now is also so that I am not fussy about them, every effort is a team effort and some techniques may still need some luck on ones side.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I agree with pretty much all you said there Shannon.
Just another observation of mine. The argument that you should take another attack instead of taunt. Firstly, Im sure nobody in their right mind would suggest ANY attack is better than taunt in grabbing aggro.
Secondly, I am almost certain that the teams I play in do more damage if I taunt. Yes folks, its true. *I* may do less damage, but my damage as a tank is pitiful compared to a blaster,or even defender sometimes, who is not afraid to unleash AoE hell.
Any half decent blaster or defender will unleash that AoE hell regardless of whether there's a tank in the team. And certainly won't care whether than tank is using taunt or aura to keep the mobs occupied.
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I agree with pretty much all you said there Shannon.
Just another observation of mine. The argument that you should take another attack instead of taunt. Firstly, Im sure nobody in their right mind would suggest ANY attack is better than taunt in grabbing aggro.
Secondly, I am almost certain that the teams I play in do more damage if I taunt. Yes folks, its true. *I* may do less damage, but my damage as a tank is pitiful compared to a blaster,or even defender sometimes, who is not afraid to unleash AoE hell.
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I don't think tanks should take another attack for taunt; it could be invisibility; it's their toon. You don't have to team with them after you've found out that the AV in the mob has run out, away from the tanker and one shotted you or anything like that.
People tend to lower their dps around tauntless tanks just so that they don't unleash hell and everything runs out and hits them. There is the aura but it is small. Maximillian says things but the game is a diverse one and you can't compare RttC with CE. With CE people tend not to steal aggro and if they did what ever runs out runs out slowly and is easily grabbed back. My Icetank still has taunt as I intend to tank the whole game with it regardless of team make up. If I need to out-range GWs soul storm and black hole because there is no CM, Clarity etc then thats doable.
Now PuGs are PuGs, and normally it takes a while for them to gel, something I am patient with. SG teams that have someone plant every 2 secs just tells me there is one donut in the lead loving the extra prestige that peoples debt brings with it.
The game is merely about playing a hero to me, but people do farm and pvp, either way you limit yourself with your choices and either people can handle playing with you or they can't.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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But a lot of people don't use Taunt. They just take it because it makes it easier for them to get a team.
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I'm sorry, but what a load of [censored]. Tankers do not just take Taunt so they can get a team.
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I did. Sort of.
I didn't take taunt on my fire tank as I played like a scrapper (virtually solo to the early 40s) so when I tried using taunt in a team I had no idea - I hadn't made a team-friendly tank. With my current tank, I'm trying to do something as far from that as I could. My current alt, a wp/ tank, was made specifically to team, so at level 21 I have all the primaries I can get, my initial attack, and taunt. Soloing is torturously slow, but if I'd wanted to solo, I'd have rolled a scrapper. 
I play in a regular team along with a controller and a blaster, and I rely on the other two almost entirely to deliver the damage - they rely on me to stop them getting killed while they do it. If anything I can feel like a spare part a lot of the time, but when an occasional mob gets loose and and starts beating on the other two, I remember why I'm there.
It feels strangely like playing my old Empathy defender... 
The wp/ taunt aura feels very weak to me - at least compared to fire/ - I could hold local aggro a heck of a lot easier with my fire/ tank; without taunt on my wp/ tank, I'm like a very tough scrapper with one very weak attack - no use at all on a team. (I might get another attack at 22! )
I wouldn't turn a willpower-tank-without-taunt away from a team, I just wouldn't rely on them to hold the aggro - and I wouldn't go that route myself.
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Firstly, Im sure nobody in their right mind would suggest ANY attack is better than taunt in grabbing aggro.
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I do. Ok, whole "right mind" part is dubious but my experience with several tankers has been that Taunt only holds mob attention on characters with damage auras. I have no idea why that should be, but on my ice tankers and the like, taunt was gold - you taunt something, it sticks to you like glue. On my willpower tanker though...I taunt a group, they'd turn at look at me for about half a second then go right for the blaster. I did not have the problem with Jab, let alone any of the higher attacks. Of course anything I jabbed would be in my RttC, but when a power like Fireball does damage and taunts for 13.5 seconds, given that taunts multiply aggro I find it hard to believe that taunt is actually causing more threat.
I wish the aggro mechanics were a little more transparent. I used to believe that Taunt worked exactly like it said on the tin, forcing targetted enemies to attack you and only you for the duration, but experience and the little info out there seems to indicate otherwise. Does Taunt generate any aggro at all, or is it only multiplying some sort of "on sight" hate? If it has zero generation it's hard to argue that it's the best threat grabbing attack, because none of it is real. I've seen enemies go for me because I've blasted their friends, but I've never seen taunt alter the behaviour of any mob it didn't hit. Course that could be entirely illusory...I've love to see some sort of official explanation of what's really going on inside the heads of those mobs.
Still, until I do, I've got to go with what I've seen, which suggest Taunt is a low order aggro generator, and that if you take it before you have a full and effective attack chain, you'll be weakening your character in team play as well as alone.
As far as I understand it yes a punchvoke will give you a higher threat rating quicker, but as any taunted threat rating is almost unbreakable by any untaunted threat meaning that advantage appears to be of very little use. The place where the powers do differ are AoE (on your smaller punch vokes at least) range and duration, all of which taunt does better.
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On my willpower tanker though...I taunt a group, they'd turn at look at me for about half a second then go right for the blaster. I did not have the problem with Jab, let alone any of the higher attacks. Of course anything I jabbed would be in my RttC, but when a power like Fireball does damage and taunts for 13.5 seconds, given that taunts multiply aggro I find it hard to believe that taunt is actually causing more threat.
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Hmm, so far at least, I'm not having the same experience with my willpower tank and the fireblaster I team with - he's generally a total aggro magnet on every alt he's ever played - he's worked up to fire blasting, he spams Fireball and rain of fire like they're going out of fashion (hello Nom).
Mobs I miss with taunt go straight for him - I occasionally have to go hit something or wait and hit taunt again when mobs notice him - but I generally only need to actually attack stuff for the look of the thing (so the other guys don't realise I'm leeching all their xp ), stuff I hit with taunt seems to stick to me like glue - although the aura continues to underwhelm. I wish I'd had a pet tank to play alongside my fire blaster!
Of course, at 19-21 we're still on DOs here, it's possible he'll out-aggro me at later levels.. 
After skimming over some posts here I'm just gonna clarify stuff a bit:
Taunt itself doesn't appear to cause any agro of its own, it actually multiplies any agro generated by the tanker whose Taunt debuff is currently affecting the targeted enemies by some insane number for the duration. This is why auras + taunt = lots and lots of agro. Without auras you'll have to smack things during the taunt duration to keep the agro - gauntlet helps here though, of course. Without attacking you'll have to keep stuff in your aura. Simple as that.
RttC is, tauntwise, the weakest aura, as it ticks once per second as opposed to other auras which tick 4 times per second for the taunt roll. Slotting Taunt Durations helps here.
If anyone finds I've claimed anything wrong, feel free to correct me.
1) Taunt does cause some aggro on its own, it counts as an attack. It just causes a lot less than attacks that do damage.
2) RttC is the weakest aura, but because of its low taunt duration, not its tick rate, wich at 1 per second is better than most damage auras (but worse than CE, which ticks 2 per second). As it's taunt duration is so low, slotting RttC with taunt enhancements will not help significantly.
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If anyone finds I've claimed anything wrong, feel free to correct me.
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K.
I really should do something about this signature.
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2) RttC is the weakest aura, but because of its low taunt duration, not its tick rate, wich at 1 per second is better than most damage auras (but worse than CE, which ticks 2 per second). As it's taunt duration is so low, slotting RttC with taunt enhancements will not help significantly.
[/ QUOTE ]Damnit Ced.
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K.
[/ QUOTE ]TY.
..wait I'm confused now; bear with the first-time taunt-tanker here as I ask dumb questions:
You seem to be saying taunt itself doesn't keep aggro, it just multiplies the threat from attacks? I thought I just had to fire off taunt to get attention, and hit it again to keep it. I haven't noticed mobs I've taunted wander off and go blaster-hunting, just the ones that taunt missed and were outside of my aura range.
Do I need to be attacking stuff to maintain aggro? - I do hit stuff, but I always thought tanker attacks were really just there to relieve the boredom, like defender attacks...
It multiplies threat from attacks by a very very large number.
Taunt itself counts as an attack, but attacks that do damage generate quite a lot more aggro than those that do none.
Most of the time just taunting will be enough to keep the mobs on you, but if your team are doing a lot of damage it will help if you are doing damage too.
So you will be most effective if you both taunt and attack.
I really should do something about this signature.
Thanks Praf 
Defender attacks are not just there to relive boredom!
Unless you're /Archery.
You can use taunt alone to keep aggro with most AVs. The AI my give them instructions at certain HP for example but Blasters would have to have an insane amount of damage procs.
Taunt duration can run out before recharge especially under -recharge circumstances or it could be the AV has a high resistance, phased or placated you but thats why some of us actually slot it.
By slotting it I like to think that I am working towards the "no ftw powersets" needed let alone the "no AT needed" type thing.
The more range you have to out range attacks and cut down the amount of attacks you can be hit by the more taunt duration you could do with.
On the US forums 2 years ago maybe a question was put out for the Tankers with Taunt which was "Whats your taunt slotted with?" and quite a number of Vets turned up and said what they had and a few said 2,2,2 and some said they may change is to 1,1,1 with IOs. The 3 types of slots they were looking at was taunt, recharge and range. Long before then mine was 2,2,2. A number of the original set of Tanks that frequented this Tanker section also had chosen to slot taunt. We, this and that side of the Atlantic had our reasons.
The problem with using Range is that aggro is more easily stolen and prior to Castle stating how taunt works there had been instances where a scrapper with confront which is of lower duration had stole aggro from me causing large AoEs to land on the whole team instead of piddly single targets landing on me. The scrappers built up damage, used confront and from being next to the AV took aggro. Had they not used confront the team would be alive today (I joke) but threat mechanics is something not just for a Tanker to get into but the whole team. At times it may pay for the Scrapper to turn all his toggles off to save end from what a tank does let alone just their (the scrappers) taunt aura so threat mechanics is a good thing to learn. Why fight with them on when you don't need them? more recovery ftw.
If you like maths Praf and being a teacher I respect there is some maturity for me to trust you then together we can work on trying to find holes where we can use threat mechanics for survivability. I'd rather play test things privately with you and a couple of others like Saxtus till a formula is gained. Not shy am I.
Edit: Actually there is different kinds of holes or windows as I like to call them.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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The scrappers built up damage, used confront and from being next to the AV took aggro.
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WUT?Afaik in this game this aggro mechanic is not in place where damage generates threat indicators capable of breaking aggro like in WoW?
I bet it was probably all mine from Saturday night (since edited). I came home drunk and was basically offering everyone outside.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.