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The only teams where nobody dies are great teams, not teams with great tanks..
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This.
A team where no one dies is more down to the performance of the whole team rather than one individual. That said I have seen bad teams held up by one or two really outstanding individuals.
@SteelRat; @SteelRat2
"Angelina my love, I'm a genius!"
"Of course you are darling, that's why I married you. Physically, you're rather unattractive"
http://faces.cohtitan.com/profile/SteelRat
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I just thought your model was incomplete
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All mathematical models are incomplete, if it was complete it wouldn't be a model, it would be the real thing.
The trick to maths modeling, is to know which factors can be safely ignored. In this case the taunt from RttC can be reasonably ignored, since it's duration is so short (less than 10%) compared to any other taunt ability. (That's why I chose WP for my comparison in the first place, it's the only tanker primary without an effective taunt aura).
I really should do something about this signature.
Given it's ability to totally change the result of the model I wouldn't agree that it could be so easily dismissed but then I suppose that is the crux of what we disagree on, but as I said in an earlier post I'm happy to agree to disagree and carry on tanking, taunting left right and centre and loving every minute of it.
As an aside I'm still unconvinced of the currently accepted view of the maths of taunt (not by you personally Praf but in general) last night I tanked 3 Avs, We had wittled it's group down and where only facing the AV in every case but despite punchvoke, aura and regular taunts on 5 seperate occassins the AV's broke my taunt to nearly 1 shot a squishy given the unbreakable nature of the taunt calculation how is this possible? And no it wasn't a WP tank it was a INV, but given an average taunt aura duration for something that remains in melee with you about 15 secs say then someone must have exceeded my dmg by a factor of 15,000 this doesnt seem to add up can anyone enlighten me?
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The only teams where nobody dies are great teams, not teams with great tanks..
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This.
A team where no one dies is more down to the performance of the whole team rather than one individual. That said I have seen bad teams held up by one or two really outstanding individuals.
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I have seen teams stand up on the back of the fact a kin was in it, or for the fact that a sonic was in it, or got lucky due to a bubbler was in the team. Take away the type of support they were getting and put in another they'd of failed. Some people seem to be lost without certain types of support versus certain enemies.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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The only teams where nobody dies are great teams, not teams with great tanks..
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This.
A team where no one dies is more down to the performance of the whole team rather than one individual. That said I have seen bad teams held up by one or two really outstanding individuals.
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I have seen teams stand up on the back of the fact a kin was in it, or for the fact that a sonic was in it, or got lucky due to a bubbler was in the team. Take away the type of support they were getting and put in another they'd of failed. Some people seem to be lost without certain types of support versus certain enemies.
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Like how some Granite tanks moan if they dont have a Kin in the team for example
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Given it's ability to totally change the result of the model I wouldn't agree that it could be so easily dismissed but then I suppose that is the crux of what we disagree on, but as I said in an earlier post I'm happy to agree to disagree and carry on tanking, taunting left right and centre and loving every minute of it.
As an aside I'm still unconvinced of the currently accepted view of the maths of taunt (not by you personally Praf but in general) last night I tanked 3 Avs, We had wittled it's group down and where only facing the AV in every case but despite punchvoke, aura and regular taunts on 5 seperate occassins the AV's broke my taunt to nearly 1 shot a squishy given the unbreakable nature of the taunt calculation how is this possible? And no it wasn't a WP tank it was a INV, but given an average taunt aura duration for something that remains in melee with you about 15 secs say then someone must have exceeded my dmg by a factor of 15,000 this doesnt seem to add up can anyone enlighten me?
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Fancy meeting me in game?
I will be out watching Wall-E this afternoon, but send me a PM of when you're free.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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I'm still unconvinced of the currently accepted view of the maths of taunt
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It's what Castle says. You think he is talking out of his backside, or do you just think we are all liers since you didn't see his post?
However, there was special code added for AVs that alows them to ignore Taunt sometimes. I can't remember how it works, but there where a lot of complaints when it went in.
I really should do something about this signature.
has it got something to do with the colour purple or am I thinking of something else?
"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"
I'd forgetten about it until AVs where mentioned, I think it went in around the same time AVs got thier hp and regen buffed, possibly between issue 7 and 8, my memory is a bit hazy here.
What I believe happens is not that taunt is broken, its just that AVs have a random chance of throwing an attack at someone lower down thier hate scale.
I really should do something about this signature.
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I'm still unconvinced of the currently accepted view of the maths of taunt
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It's what Castle says. You think he is talking out of his backside, or do you just think we are all liers since you didn't see his post?
Speculation about my attitudes or purposes are probably quite futile, but I will say this subject is something that 'was' misunderstood in the game and people probably swore to the bible according to whatever Dev that what they said was true. Given this the idea that it might still not be fully understood is surely IMO not too outragous an idea.
However, there was special code added for AVs that alows them to ignore Taunt sometimes. I can't remember how it works, but there where a lot of complaints when it went in.
This on the other hand is useful information and I thank you what I don't thank you for is the veiled insult that I would accuse everyone else of being liars and talking out there [censored] if I didn't fully understand something myself and was attempting to learn more myself but if thats the level you wish to operate on please feel free to PM me with your insults, derisitions, general direspect whatever you feel, make it as graphic as you like mate, I'm a big boy now I'm sure I can take it, if you choose to take me up on this offer no Mod will be made aware of this by my hand you have my word
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Oh and Shannon cheers I'm honored probably won't be in game today but feel free to tell me anytime you are on union.
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has it got something to do with the colour purple or am I thinking of something else?
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Think your right mate sure someone said to me don't wear purple when going up against an AV it's like a red rag to a bull 
Or was it don't drink a red bull when going up against a purple AV 
Something like that anyway I'm sure 
I cannot believe this is still going on - and I know how long threads can pan out! Basically it boils down to (regardless of numbers):
Some tanks have taunt
Some tanks don't have taunt.
Tanks without taunt aren't necessarily 'Anti-Taunt' they just have better things to do with their powerslots or dont feel it fits with the build. I dont have taunt on my Fire/Fire tank but I will be taking it on my Stone/Fire as Stone defence withstands mass aggro!
Tanking can be done perfectly well without Taunt and players should not be penalised for not taking a power they do not find useful. In a game with the freedom of choice that CoH offers I find it shameful that team leaders are refusing to take on members who do not have the desired powersets.
I remeber when (jeez i sound like my grandad) a PuG was simply a team of randomly invited individuals with no pre-conceived ideas about 'what powersets do we need'. We all got together and surprisingly enough with no pre-meditation on team selection we did more often than not survive. Sure - occasionally you wuold sometimes feel like you were carrying a player to a degree whos powers you personally didnt feel that useful, but nobody cared as everyone was there to enjoy the ride. The game used to be about fun - after all it IS a game. Somewhere along the issues a lot of people seem to have lost sight of that all important fact and suddenly the game has a worring amount of seriousness about it. As has been mentioned in other threads - debt it no longer a major issue so why now does dying because the tanker doesnt have taunt seem to be such a big problem.
Even on big TF's (LGTF etc) if the tank doesnt have taunt it may well be a tadge harder to complete but if the team pulls together and works hard then it can be done.
Anyway, rant over - cant believe i typed so much - perils of having a beer in the afternoon! 
Golden-Phoenix - Lvl 50 Fire/Fire Tank
Oodja Nikabolokov - Lvl 50 SS/WP Brute
Baby-Phoenix - Lvl 50 Peacebringer
How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could Chuck Norris?
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Speculation about my attitudes or purposes are probably quite futile, but I will say this subject is something that 'was' misunderstood in the game and people probably swore to the bible according to whatever Dev that what they said was true. Given this the idea that it might still not be fully understood is surely IMO not too outragous an idea.
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Quite simply:
You are completly Wrong.
Castle was entierly emphatic and clear. It was NOT missunderstood by us, and Castle is completly confident he now understood it, after a lot of research, reverse engineering and testing. I'm sorry you wheren't here then, but there is absolutely no doubt.
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I don't thank you for is the veiled insult
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I'm getting rather impatient with your obstinate refusal to accept what the developers / forum members of long standing tell you.
You are saying you don't believe us, which implies we are either stupid or lying, so you are the one making the veiled insults.
You want evidence: here is a link to the discusion we had hear about it. If you try to follow the link to the US forums you will see the original post is no longer there. This is not some conspiricy or cover up, it is simply because the forums are periodically wiped for the sake of performace.
I really should do something about this signature.
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I remeber when (jeez i sound like my grandad) a PuG was simply a team of randomly invited individuals with no pre-conceived ideas about 'what powersets do we need'
[/ QUOTE ]Funny, I've been playing since EU launch and I don't. We always had people who refused to move without a tank or a "healer".
Lol Max you and I must play in different circles
Golden-Phoenix - Lvl 50 Fire/Fire Tank
Oodja Nikabolokov - Lvl 50 SS/WP Brute
Baby-Phoenix - Lvl 50 Peacebringer
How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could Chuck Norris?
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Tanking can be done perfectly well without Taunt and players should not be penalised for not taking a power they do not find useful. In a game with the freedom of choice that CoH offers I find it shameful that team leaders are refusing to take on members who do not have the desired powersets.
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Every player will find taunt useful. in a team.
Not having taunt is not discriminating against power sets. Every tank secondary has taunt and it is there for all to pick.
Having taunt is not useful.
Using it skillfully and slotting it might be useful.
Having Chilling Embrace is ueseful.
Not being WP is useful.
Having AOE damage powers is useful.
Having Ice Patch is useful.
Having Energy Tranfer is useful.
etc
etc
etc
How can you possibly move without a tanker who has all of these abilities?
I really should do something about this signature.
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Lol Max you and I must play in different circles
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Max is right. In fact I don't think things are quite as bad as in the early days.
I really should do something about this signature.
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Oh and Shannon cheers I'm honored probably won't be in game today but feel free to tell me anytime you are on union.
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I am on every server.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Using taunt skilfully and slotting it is useful.
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Edited for some real hard solid truth.
I am not in favour of everyone getting taunt. Its a selfless power. I like people to get it because its exactly that and then I live in hope of them finding out for themselves all of its uses.
Mathematicians who fail to get all the numbers, fail.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Having taunt is not useful.
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Id have to disagree with you there. Unless one is being particularly pedantic in which case you could say no power is useful (bar passives) because you could not use it. Or, use it incorrectly.
But taunt IS useful, unless you wish to say that every hold, immobilise, stun, sleep, knockback, damage, debuff, fear, confuse, and pet power is also not useful.
Whatever your view point/ opinion of me as far as I'm concerned some interesting questions remain about the coding of taunt ( for me at least ) like-
Why quote Mag at all?
If Mag is just there to represent a binary flag why do some powers have mag 3 some mag 4?
Why do taunt enhancments apply to mag and not duration?
Though Praf said to me in another thread that Mag is related to duration he seemed unable to explain the mechanics of it too me. This means I at least don't fully understand the maths of taunt so I will continue to endevour to do so.
*Warning dire amueter poetic inturlude, please close you eyes if you might be offended in any way*
Taunt
Take it with a pinch of salt
Take it or leave it
Take it easy
Take it if you really want it
Take your time
Take care
Take it like a man but most of all
IMO take it!
*Ok you can look again now sorry really couldn't help myself, note to self :- prehaps the doc is right that medication really ain't strong enough!*
Happy Tanking Tanks and Tankesses both Taunted and Tauntless 
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Having taunt is not useful.
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Id have to disagree with you there. Unless one is being particularly pedantic in which case you could say no power is useful (bar passives) because you could not use it. Or, use it incorrectly.
But taunt IS useful, unless you wish to say that every hold, immobilise, stun, sleep, knockback, damage, debuff, fear, confuse, and pet power is also not useful.
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But a lot of people don't use Taunt. They just take it because it makes it easier for them to get a team.
I really should do something about this signature.
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Why quote Mag at all?
If Mag is just there to represent a binary flag why do some powers have mag 3 some mag 4?
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Because prior to November 2007 the devs didn't know how taunt worked. It is a redundant flag attached to the power in the database that does nothing. "Show details" is bugged, as it shows Taunt enhancers enhancing mag not duration. The dev who wrote the "Show Details" code (Poz I think) probably doesn't know how Taunt works. It's far from the only bug in "Show Details".
Look at "Combat Attributes". Look for Taunt Protection. What! It's not there!?? That's because taunt doesn't have a Magnatude. It can, however, be resisted, which reduces it's duration.
I really should do something about this signature.
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OK I'd say quite a vast amount of the squishy team members I have seen, all seem to go out of their way to desperately try to get themselves killed. I'd say a lot of them expect a tank to save them from everything they create, magically defy game mechanics and in no way offer much assistance back.
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If any of my team have less than full green health bars, I ain't doing things right.
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Thats the spirit. Such confidence means other team members will be working at peak efficiency, not worrying about themselves.
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And apparently even some tankers themselves...
No, sorry, this wont fly.
Taunt lets you control the mobs, not the other players in your team. To have expectations on yourself as a tank that "nobody gets hurt and if they do, Im to blame" sounds nice, but is really unrealistic.
Dont have unrealistic goals, do the math, think.
How many mobs are there in a 8 man spawn? 10? 12?
Quite enough anyhow for any selfrespeciting tank to have control over.
But all it takes is that one of the blasters use tab to switch to next target and suddenly by mistake targets a mob in another spawn over yonder and all of a sudden a entire new fresh spawn come a- running witha tank that has a saturated aggro cap, and no amount of taunt enhancements in the aura, or taunting, or provoking, or attacking to get some Gauntlet in there will help.
somebody will get hurt, someone might faceplant..If your unlucky you might wipe.
To have a goal like "nobody dies" and think its because of your great tanking is only presumptious and dangerous.
The only teams where nobody dies are great teams, not teams with great tanks..
UNION
Officer Cuffz lvl 50 Inv/Nrg Tank
Badge lvl 50 dwarf/human Peacebringer
Dark Air lvl 50 Ice/Cold Corruptor
Ayre lvl 50 Storm/Elec Defender
Total Cat: @Officer Cuffz
"When I say interview, I mean engage in combat and defeat..." -Laura Brunetti, on how to deal with Warriors.