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I'm agreeing with Max AND PRAF in the same thread on the same day? Something is definitely amiss...
Taunt isn't the be all and end all of efficient tanking, it's just another tool that contributes to it.
Having it will help you do it, but it doesn't follow that you won't do it (effectively) if you don't.
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Effectiveness is not a yes/no quality. Its a spectrum. Taunt makes you more effective at holding aggro. End of story.
you may be referring to "Suficient Effectiveness for team to survive" but thats another story...
Bear in mind that the more confident the team is in you / effective you are, the more they are likely to release AoE hell. The more they do that, the more effective the team becomes.
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Taunt makes you more effective at holding aggro. End of story.
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Chilling Embrace makes you more effective at holding aggro. Therefore never team with a tank without Chilling Embrace. End of story.
I really should do something about this signature.
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I'm agreeing with Max AND PRAF in the same thread on the same day? Something is definitely amiss...
Taunt isn't the be all and end all of efficient tanking, it's just another tool that contributes to it.
Having it will help you do it, but it doesn't follow that you won't do it (effectively) if you don't.
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Effectiveness is not a yes/no quality. Its a spectrum. Taunt makes you more effective at holding aggro. End of story.
you may be referring to "Suficient Effectiveness for team to survive" but thats another story...
Bear in mind that the more confident the team is in you / effective you are, the more they are likely to release AoE hell. The more they do that, the more effective the team becomes.
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I agree.. but the baseline at which a tauntless tank is effective ENOUGH for PVE is lower than I think some people are advocating here. I think it also depends largely on the primary of a given tank. From my own experience, My fire tank could survive solely with Blazing Aura, be able to hold agro perfectly well and even without taunt was regularly told he was a "Good tank". My WP and Inv tanks however really cannot do without taunt at all.
Perhaps this is due in part to PRAFs calculations for hate build up. Neither WP or Inv taunt auras have a damage component, but a debuff, and therefore if I'm understanding the maths correctly this means the amount of hate generated from the taunt effect of the aura alone is drastically less for the auras without a damage component, than those with.
Of course Ice tanks are unusual in that they have both a debuff aura AND a damage aura, both of which also have a taunt component as well. That would explain why they are such herd monsters, and I could well believe such a beast would be perfectly viable without taunt.
Oh and Shannon.. dieing, then using RotP is a valid tanking tactic for a fire tank? That has to rate as one of THE most ridiculous suggestions I've ever heard.
@SteelRat; @SteelRat2
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http://faces.cohtitan.com/profile/SteelRat
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Taunt makes you more effective at holding aggro. End of story.
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Chilling Embrace makes you more effective at holding aggro. Therefore never team with a tank without Chilling Embrace. End of story.
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Ice/DB tank LTF, will except purples as payment.........
What??! Seemed a good spot to advertise
"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"
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An Ice tank with CE but no taunt will be able to hold aggro far more effectively than a WP tank with taunt.
Lets do a little comparison between CE Tanking and WP/ Taunt Tanking :
CE: Max mobs affected: 10, frequency 0.5 seconds, Max AoE 10 , Max duration 15 secs approx
Taunt +WP : Max mobs affected: 15 , max frequency, WP aura tick time , Max AoE 23- 15 of which anywhere within 70 ft, Max duration 40 secs approx
Surely a fairer mathmatical comparison given your premise. 
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No, not a fairer comparison. Max duration of CE taunt is 27 seconds. You are alowed to slot powers you know. Compared to WP, which even slotted (which you are not actually likely to do) has a maximum duration of about 2.5 seconds i.e. the WP taunt aura is completly useless against mobs not in melee range, so its effects can be realisticaly ignored when trying to manage any large spawn, since you can't possible keep them all in range, whereas CE, with a duration of nearly 30 seconds can easily catch everything within 70 ft: tankers can move around you know.
Using Taunt, it would take the WP tanker at least 8 seconds to bring a 16 mob spawn under control, wheras an Ice tanker can do it in about 2.
I really should do something about this signature.
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Another factor to take into account is how much aggro can a tank survive?
A Fire/Fire tank generates a lot of aggro simply by virtue of doing a lot of AOE damage. If they taunt as well, they may well faceplant as they don't have the highest suvivability, and a faceplanted tank is about the worst possible thing for team survival.
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No, Firetanks can usually then RotP.
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When the fire tank faceplants all thier aggro is imediatly transfered to the rest o the team, so by the time they have used RotP the team is wiped.
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I have never had that...I have never seen it transfer to the team!
Tips on impending doom.
Stick RotP on auto, works asap.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Taunt makes you more effective at holding aggro. End of story.
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Chilling Embrace makes you more effective at holding aggro. Therefore never team with a tank without Chilling Embrace. End of story.
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Green jet isn't about to back me up but we did a test: Blazing aura versus Chilling Embrace. Somehow we had the same amount of foes interested in both of us, some nearer him and some nearer me. Thing with Blazing Aura though is it doesn't automatically hit as you can be tohit debuffed to hell. Anything that taunts can steal aggro of off other people with less or no taunt though and allowing for it is what matters. Scrappers Blazing Aura doesn't taunt at all.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Oh and Shannon.. dieing, then using RotP is a valid tanking tactic for a fire tank? That has to rate as one of THE most ridiculous suggestions I've ever heard.
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Can a Firetank, tank Lord Recluse unaided.
Yes/No?
I say yes myself.
From what I know. D'ya think thats ridiculous?
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Taunt makes you more effective at holding aggro. End of story.
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Chilling Embrace makes you more effective at holding aggro. Therefore never team with a tank without Chilling Embrace. End of story.
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I hope you understand thats misqouting me I just said taunt makes you more effective, end of story. Chilling Embrace also makes you more effective.
I never, ever, said dont EVER team with a tauntless tank, and I wouldnt say I wouldnt team with a non-ice tank.
But do I breathe easier when its an ice tank on the team? yes. Do I breath easier when the tank has taunt? yes. In both situations I will be more liberal with devastating AoE - maybe abit more, maybe a lot more. Depends on team.
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Can a Firetank, tank Lord Recluse unaided.
Yes/No?
[/ QUOTE ]With tough, yes, if they're very good and lucky, but it's still not pretty. And RotP'ing really isn't the tactic they'll be using.
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No, not a fairer comparison. Max duration of CE taunt is 27 seconds. You are alowed to slot powers you know. Yes this also applies to taunts duration/range Compared to WP, which even slotted (which you are not actually likely to do) has a maximum duration of about 2.5 seconds i.e. the WP taunt aura is completly useless against mobs not in melee range, so its effects can be realisticaly ignored when trying to manage any large spawn, since you can't possible keep them all in range, whereas CE, with a duration of nearly 30 seconds can easily catch everything within 70 ft But I can in effect be in two places at once within that 70 ft : tankers can move around you know. Here you negate your own arguement with your answer (WP only effective in melee range but tanks can move)
Using Taunt, it would take the WP tanker at least 8 seconds to bring a 16 mob spawn under control, wheras an Ice tanker can do it in about 2.
According to my calculations 2 for a WP with taunt 1 for an Ice tank, well you win one there sort of 
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Oh and Shannon.. dieing, then using RotP is a valid tanking tactic for a fire tank? That has to rate as one of THE most ridiculous suggestions I've ever heard.
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Can a Firetank, tank Lord Recluse unaided.
Yes/No?
I say yes myself.
From what I know. D'ya think thats ridiculous?
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I would love to see you do it.Fraps and youtube upload it please.This reminds me of that awsome super secret scrapper taunt technique 
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Can a Firetank, tank Lord Recluse unaided.
Yes/No?
[/ QUOTE ]With tough, yes, if they're very good and lucky, but it's still not pretty. And RotP'ing really isn't the tactic they'll be using.
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Absolutely no RotP needed or fight pool.
I RotP out of theme or a balls up.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Oh and Shannon.. dieing, then using RotP is a valid tanking tactic for a fire tank? That has to rate as one of THE most ridiculous suggestions I've ever heard.
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Can a Firetank, tank Lord Recluse unaided.
Yes/No?
I say yes myself.
From what I know. D'ya think thats ridiculous?
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I would love to see you do it.Fraps and youtube upload it please.This reminds me of that awsome super secret scrapper taunt technique
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You would never see it done or be shown it by me. This is not just in order to not benefit people like you from my experience but because I think if you put some whacky idea out there people may start to think and not give up on something that merely seems impossible.
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Yes this also applies to taunts duration/range
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Yes, I included it.
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But I can in effect be in two places at once within that 70 ft
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But no more than 2 places in a 4 second interval. You taunt once, and have to wait around 4 seconds assuming it is slotted with recharges before you can taunt again. If you move at all, your WP aura will no longer be taunting those mobs. In the same 4 seconds CE can taunt in 8 different places, and still have all the mobs affected.
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Here you negate your own arguement with your answer (WP only effective in melee range but tanks can move)
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No, you have failed to understand. If a WP tank moves, the mobs in melee range are not taunted any more because it has a taunt duration of 1.25 seconds. If an Ice tank moves the mobs which are no longer in melee range will continue to be taunted up to 27 seconds later.
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According to my calculations 2 for a WP with taunt 1 for an Ice tank
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Your calculations are way out, unless you assume all 16 mobs are standing within 8 feet of each other, which never happens.
I really should do something about this signature.
This discussion has caused me to realise a few things:
1) Just how good Taunt enhancments are in CE - I went back and replaced a Slow with an additional Taunt
2) Just how bad a tauntless WP tank would be
3) Roll on powerset proliferation for WP/Spines tanks.
I really should do something about this signature.
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Can a Firetank, tank Lord Recluse unaided.
Yes/No?
[/ QUOTE ]With tough, yes, if they're very good and lucky, but it's still not pretty. And RotP'ing really isn't the tactic they'll be using.
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Absolutely no RotP needed or fight pool.
[/ QUOTE ]I'd love to see you tank LR with no support or Tough, I really would.
But what I'd most likely see would be death.
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Another factor to take into account is how much aggro can a tank survive?
A Fire/Fire tank generates a lot of aggro simply by virtue of doing a lot of AOE damage. If they taunt as well, they may well faceplant as they don't have the highest suvivability, and a faceplanted tank is about the worst possible thing for team survival.
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No, Firetanks can usually then RotP.
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When the fire tank faceplants all thier aggro is imediatly transfered to the rest o the team, so by the time they have used RotP the team is wiped.
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I have never had that...I have never seen it transfer to the team!
Tips on impending doom.
Stick RotP on auto, works asap.
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As soon as a character faceplants mobs loose all hate to that character, and so turn and attack the character with the next highest hate level. If there are no other taunting types around that will be the character who has most recently done the most damage to them - so the AOE blaster gets hammered.
I'm very suprised you haven't noticed this, its the main cause of cascade team wipes heroeside.
The damage component of RotP helps to get your aggro back quickly, but only to mobs in range. Anything else will have zero hate at the time you rez.
I really should do something about this signature.
Post deleted by GhostRaptor
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You would never see it done or be shown it by me. This is not just in order to not benefit people like you from my experience
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I just wanted to see exactly this RoTP tanking insanity.
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RotP is great as part of a theme not only that it offers a tank a chance to do something other tanks can't do which is make a recovery after a defeat. It means your not waiting idly in the hopes that someone can res you or give you an awaken while things carry on. You earn more xp/time on average from the level of offense compared to other tanks which balances things. Some people have hang ups about it but I don't. My ego doesn't extend to my characters, they're there for fun and no else has dropped as a result of it's use.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I must agree with Shannon - I love to use RotP to keep control of mobs. If I die, an immediate RotP *usually* hits most of the mob that killed me and regains their attention whilst giving me time to reactivate shields as I rez. The disorient it causes also makes life easy for getting a few swift attacks in too!
Golden-Phoenix - Lvl 50 Fire/Fire Tank
Oodja Nikabolokov - Lvl 50 SS/WP Brute
Baby-Phoenix - Lvl 50 Peacebringer
How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could Chuck Norris?
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As soon as a character faceplants mobs loose all hate to that character, and so turn and attack the character with the next highest hate level. If there are no other taunting types around that will be the character who has most recently done the most damage to them - so the AOE blaster gets hammered.
I'm very suprised you haven't noticed this, its the main cause of cascade team wipes heroeside.
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I haven't noticed this as it hasn't happened. Sometimes I deliberately RotP because its "the right time" to fall and gain more end to carry on. Also I have a fire/fire blaster, ok again I'd enjoy RotP from the epics but I can make decisions on what powers to use and when.
About Icetanks theoretically being the only tank worth having in the team as they hold aggro best.
Some teams have been perfectly safe with a willpower scrapper in front herding. In fact it's been that good its got boring.
I try not to be interested in what players concepts are, I am only interested in what they bring to them as players.
The goal with me is to not be picky about powersets, that's choosing people without playing with them first. When asked what type of defender the team could do with the words any is all I am interested in having to say and if that means I have to spend time getting to know content then I will. I don't like PvP as its been more based on a choice of powersets than skill.
Fight pool adds flexibility, taunt adds flexibility, combat jump adds flexibility that's all people need to know and whether or not people find a power useful is down to them. Whether or not people choose to keep on playing with each other is down to them. What powers people decide on is of no concern to others. I find having taunt on scrappers infinitely better and know for a fact that there can be times when a scrapper with taunt can be more influential to a teams success than a granite without and at the same time it goes for a tank with fight pool than one with out fight pool. Do I want fight pool? No I like the fun of other powers and don't see a real need for it thru doing things differently.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Another factor to take into account is how much aggro can a tank survive?
A Fire/Fire tank generates a lot of aggro simply by virtue of doing a lot of AOE damage. If they taunt as well, they may well faceplant as they don't have the highest suvivability, and a faceplanted tank is about the worst possible thing for team survival.
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No, Firetanks can usually then RotP.
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When the fire tank faceplants all thier aggro is imediatly transfered to the rest o the team, so by the time they have used RotP the team is wiped.
I really should do something about this signature.