[ QUOTE ]
I managed to tank perfectly well with Viking Furnace without taunt, so I'm a little disturbed by this "build snobbery" some people are displaying here. "I won't team with a tank that doesn't have taunt". I prefer not to team with someone that decides on a players worth just by what powers they have.
That said, I did spec into into it a while back, and it does make things a lot easier for me.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think what most people have said is actually justified- after all it is all down to prefference. Posting this i wasnt expecting such a reaction (and yes i am new hehe).
Personally i would ask a person to team on their merits- not their powers. If a person can do their job- aka- tank, then i am happy to team with them. If however a mission is going very slowly, death tolls are high (hypothetically due to a "no taunt" tank and not AoE mad squishies) and i could be doing better soloing, then i know that the tanker i am teming with is not good at his job. Saying that i have teamed with tankers who have taunt who are also truly awful.
As a matter of prefference i would always take taunt for teaming as it is a useful power- but at the same time i will not flat out yell at someone for not having it.
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Personally, I think choosing not to team with someone based on thier build without seeing them in action is not acceptable.
[/ QUOTE ]
I try to avoid quoting and saying "this" but in this case it seems the best course. This!
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I think its a lot more complex than that...
1. Inviting a tank. Take one look at build. No Taunt. Kick.
On one extreme.
2. Doing ITF. Last spot. Need a tank. Two tanks ask to join. Both are unknown quantities in terms of "skill". One has taunt, one dosent. Choose the former.
There is a whole spectrum of inbetweens too. I think most people would be somewhere in between the two...
However, the argument "If [x] wants to play/build that way, its there game, let them" also applies to "If [x] wants never to team with tauntless tanks, its their game, let them". As long as people are rude about it, you have to say its their perogative. Ergo, acceptable.
[For the record I dont think doing scenario 1 is something I would condone, or do, but you have to respect peoples choices].
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Rofl. Is this thread STILL going on? I really cba to read through all that has been posted since my previous one. And I hardly see the point in this continuing.
[/ QUOTE ]You're new here, aren't you?
We're only on page 2 now, taunt threads tend to go on far longer than that.
[/ QUOTE ]
you need to show more posts per page mate. This is a minor taunt debate at the moment as far as I can see, first page only
"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Rofl. Is this thread STILL going on? I really cba to read through all that has been posted since my previous one. And I hardly see the point in this continuing.
[/ QUOTE ]You're new here, aren't you?
We're only on page 2 now, taunt threads tend to go on far longer than that.
[/ QUOTE ]
No Max, I'm not new, been playing this game from issue 4, not only that I don't post on the forums much, but that doesn't mean I neglect to read them 
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I managed to tank perfectly well with Viking Furnace without taunt, so I'm a little disturbed by this "build snobbery" some people are displaying here. "I won't team with a tank that doesn't have taunt". I prefer not to team with someone that decides on a players worth just by what powers they have.
That said, I did spec into into it a while back, and it does make things a lot easier for me.
[/ QUOTE ]
I was part of a team that helped a tauntless tank hit 50 last night, they weren't as flexible as they could be (never are) but the fact that they just hit 50 tells me they are still starting out.
(Hows that for snobbery?)
Happy Birthday SteelRat.
[/ QUOTE ]
"not as flexible as they could be" <> "not effective enough in team PVE"
BIG difference.
@SteelRat; @SteelRat2
"Angelina my love, I'm a genius!"
"Of course you are darling, that's why I married you. Physically, you're rather unattractive"
http://faces.cohtitan.com/profile/SteelRat
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I think choosing not to team with someone based on thier build without seeing them in action is not acceptable.
[/ QUOTE ]
I try to avoid quoting and saying "this" but in this case it seems the best course. This!
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I think its a lot more complex than that...
1. Inviting a tank. Take one look at build. No Taunt. Kick.
On one extreme.
2. Doing ITF. Last spot. Need a tank. Two tanks ask to join. Both are unknown quantities in terms of "skill". One has taunt, one dosent. Choose the former.
There is a whole spectrum of inbetweens too. I think most people would be somewhere in between the two...
However, the argument "If [x] wants to play/build that way, its there game, let them" also applies to "If [x] wants never to team with tauntless tanks, its their game, let them". As long as people are rude about it, you have to say its their perogative. Ergo, acceptable.
[For the record I dont think doing scenario 1 is something I would condone, or do, but you have to respect peoples choices].
[/ QUOTE ]
Has something changed in the game? I weren't aware you could check a persons power choices before even inviting them into the team? Unless of course you're saying that in this hypothetical situation you'd actually ask them whether they have taunt or not?
If I ever asked to join a team, and the response was "Do you have power X", the reply to that with, "Second thoughts, don't bother mate"
I'd also agree with what Max said earlier (yes mate.. amazing I know 
) "A fireball in the face does the job just as well" - I actually used this tactic a fair bit before respeccing in to taunt. I remember a team I was in a while back where I was using fire ball to take the alpha. One of the team members said "You know things would be a lot easier if you had taunt". I simply replied with, "You're probably right, but my way is a lot more fun "
@SteelRat; @SteelRat2
"Angelina my love, I'm a genius!"
"Of course you are darling, that's why I married you. Physically, you're rather unattractive"
http://faces.cohtitan.com/profile/SteelRat
The above was hypothetical.
In many peoples opinion, mine included, tauntless tanks are second rate. At least for fast paced playstyle.
No you may disagree, you may not. But thats my opinion.
So, given a choice between a tauntless tank and a taunting tank, with ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL. I am going to choose the taunter. However, I dont ask people whether they have taunt.
Its simply that if I PUGGIE with a tauntless tank, I am less likely to want to team with them again.
I was merely saying that this is acceptable.
My sole point is this: Taunt will make you more popular than skipping it.
Lots of other things contribute to popularity, like personality and skill, and normally are FAR more important.
Oh and Im entirely with you: If I ever get a tell saying "Are you kinetic? Are you empath? Are you Granite?" I will normally never team with them. I reply with a cautious "why", and unless they can give a VERY specific reason (*maybe* the ITF/STF, *maybe* they have a granite tank, etc) I will decline their offer on principle - its a bad sign when people need a specific set, and its bad form.
[ QUOTE ]
So, given a choice between a tauntless tank and a taunting tank, with ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL.
[/ QUOTE ]But that's impossible. Not taking taunt allows the tank to have some other power in their build.
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a - no power in this game is really 'needed'. Even stamina could be done without if you slot for end reduction
b - every team is able to finish every mission if youre use team play and smarts. Some will take ages longer. But you will get there.
c - if you faceplant from attacking... you would have done so alone too. Don't blaim you're team mates for youre mistake... and as suc... don't blaim the tank. Taunt of no taunt.
We are not bound to specific team builds. Time and time again I noticed that in COX its far less important then WOW for instance.
ps. My tanker made 43 now.. without taunt. SS/Inv, and I never missed it. And no team member noticed it missing. If I think it fits the toon concept oir I have a slot free to distribute I will take it, other wise not. I will prob get it on my willp brute later in the higher levels.
All can make their own choices and team members calling me names because of my choices that I made on purpois are just not social or themselves terrible players. In such a way they need a god team to survive.
[/ QUOTE ]
Did you post that reply to me deliberately and if so for what reason? I don't appear to be last reply or owner post.
[/ QUOTE ]
neehh.. It was to the whole issue of 'needing' a power or a team member. That always bugged me. I like creativity. And I hate the .. 'we-need-a-tanker' or 'we-need-a-healer' remarks... long before the team actually tried to think about their tactics.
- The Italian Job: The Godfather Returns #1151
Beginner - Encounter a renewed age for the Mook and the Family when Emile Marcone escapes from the Zig!
- Along Came a... Bug!? #528482
Average - A new race of aliens arrives on Earth. And Vanguard has you investigate them!
- The Court of the Blood Countess: The Rise of the Blood Countess #3805
Advanced - Go back in time and witness the birth of a vampire. Follow her to key moments in her life in order to stop her! A story of intrigue, drama and horror! Blood & Violence... not recommend to solo!
[ QUOTE ]
If my job is to secure the team and someone says A is 3* better security than B, then I'm going to choose A every time. Is it strictly neccasery who can say but I'd rather err on the side of caution than choose B and find out latter that it wasn't quite good enough. Hey buts that's just my 0.02 inf worth.
Taunt also deals with other situations much better than just squishes getting rushed, quickly grabbing aggro from widely spread groups, Abrutly bringing ambushes under control, Those split group moments when you need to be in two places at once, establishing control at distance so a stormy say can safely use kb and you can avoid a hard melee Alpha, grabbing Aggro quickly from an AV your blaster just pulled so it doesn't 2 srike him, pulling aggro from a second tank or other taunter who needs help, truely the list goes on. If your a jump into a group hope it all works out sort of tank then yes taunt is probably of little use to you however if you consider the myriad of things that could go wrong and still consider it your job to defend your team to the best of your ability then A1 bro IMO taunt will be an invaluable servant.
[/ QUOTE ]
First of all... I consider every member I can get for a team that uses his mind a valid member. This game is all about fun and not about ueber team builds.
Aside if that... I hope thet the teams defender is the one defending 
- The Italian Job: The Godfather Returns #1151
Beginner - Encounter a renewed age for the Mook and the Family when Emile Marcone escapes from the Zig!
- Along Came a... Bug!? #528482
Average - A new race of aliens arrives on Earth. And Vanguard has you investigate them!
- The Court of the Blood Countess: The Rise of the Blood Countess #3805
Advanced - Go back in time and witness the birth of a vampire. Follow her to key moments in her life in order to stop her! A story of intrigue, drama and horror! Blood & Violence... not recommend to solo!
[ QUOTE ]
I didnt say it was logical
I didnt say it was possible
It is, however, the mantra of a true tank!
EVERY DEATH BUT MINE OWN IS MY FAULT!
NO EXCEPTIONS!
NO EXCUSES!
[/ QUOTE ]
And then.. then you play villains. And there is no tank
And... behold... the team still survives.
- The Italian Job: The Godfather Returns #1151
Beginner - Encounter a renewed age for the Mook and the Family when Emile Marcone escapes from the Zig!
- Along Came a... Bug!? #528482
Average - A new race of aliens arrives on Earth. And Vanguard has you investigate them!
- The Court of the Blood Countess: The Rise of the Blood Countess #3805
Advanced - Go back in time and witness the birth of a vampire. Follow her to key moments in her life in order to stop her! A story of intrigue, drama and horror! Blood & Violence... not recommend to solo!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps one should consider not WHY TAKE TAUNT?, but WHY NOT?
[/ QUOTE ]Because every single power in my build is more useful than it, and there are still several other powers that would be, but don't fit in.
As for taunting far-away mobs off squishies, I've found that a fire ball in the face does the job quite well.
[/ QUOTE ]
For this reason my tank will get some laser vision.. which also holds some taunt btw. I just like the animation and concept better.
- The Italian Job: The Godfather Returns #1151
Beginner - Encounter a renewed age for the Mook and the Family when Emile Marcone escapes from the Zig!
- Along Came a... Bug!? #528482
Average - A new race of aliens arrives on Earth. And Vanguard has you investigate them!
- The Court of the Blood Countess: The Rise of the Blood Countess #3805
Advanced - Go back in time and witness the birth of a vampire. Follow her to key moments in her life in order to stop her! A story of intrigue, drama and horror! Blood & Violence... not recommend to solo!
An Ice tank with CE but no taunt will be able to hold aggro far more effectively than a WP tank with taunt.
Lets do a little comparison between CE and Taunt:
CE: Max mobs affected: 10, frequency 0.5 seconds
Taunt: Max mobs affected: 5, max frequency, about 4 seconds.
"I refuse to team with any tank wich is not Ice, they are the only tank that can hold aggro efficently, In fact only Ice/ are true tanks".
You know the sort of tanks that loose there aggro to high damage blasters? Those that don't do any damage because they are spamming taunt.
I really should do something about this signature.
I'm agreeing with Max AND PRAF in the same thread on the same day? Something is definitely amiss...
Taunt isn't the be all and end all of efficient tanking, it's just another tool that contributes to it.
Having it will help you do it, but it doesn't follow that you won't do it (effectively) if you don't.
@SteelRat; @SteelRat2
"Angelina my love, I'm a genius!"
"Of course you are darling, that's why I married you. Physically, you're rather unattractive"
http://faces.cohtitan.com/profile/SteelRat
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
a - no power in this game is really 'needed'. Even stamina could be done without if you slot for end reduction
b - every team is able to finish every mission if youre use team play and smarts. Some will take ages longer. But you will get there.
c - if you faceplant from attacking... you would have done so alone too. Don't blaim you're team mates for youre mistake... and as suc... don't blaim the tank. Taunt of no taunt.
We are not bound to specific team builds. Time and time again I noticed that in COX its far less important then WOW for instance.
ps. My tanker made 43 now.. without taunt. SS/Inv, and I never missed it. And no team member noticed it missing. If I think it fits the toon concept oir I have a slot free to distribute I will take it, other wise not. I will prob get it on my willp brute later in the higher levels.
All can make their own choices and team members calling me names because of my choices that I made on purpois are just not social or themselves terrible players. In such a way they need a god team to survive.
[/ QUOTE ]
Did you post that reply to me deliberately and if so for what reason? I don't appear to be last reply or owner post.
[/ QUOTE ]
neehh.. It was to the whole issue of 'needing' a power or a team member. That always bugged me. I like creativity. And I hate the .. 'we-need-a-tanker' or 'we-need-a-healer' remarks... long before the team actually tried to think about their tactics.
[/ QUOTE ]
Totally agree but because I wasn't last poster I was wondering if you felt you "needed" to make some point to me.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
[ QUOTE ]
An Ice tank with CE but no taunt will be able to hold aggro far more effectively than a WP tank with taunt.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just generally and sooner but not always more effectively. I have both.
[ QUOTE ]
Lets do a little comparison between CE and Taunt:
CE: Max mobs affected: 10, frequency 0.5 seconds
Taunt: Max mobs affected: 5, max frequency, about 4 seconds.
[/ QUOTE ]
But they are tools that don't do exactly the same thing.
[ QUOTE ]
"I refuse to team with any tank wich is not Ice, they are the only tank that can hold aggro efficently, In fact only Ice/ are true tanks".
[/ QUOTE ]
Something said by someone trigger happy with less knowledge in game mechanics.
[ QUOTE ]
You know the sort of tanks that loose there aggro to high damage blasters?
[/ QUOTE ]
Nigh 100% of the time they either didn't get to gain taunt control on that mob or the taunt duration ran out, the run out bit is bad, but incase of some auras, kbs, travel speed etc and I am talking for a moment here, can't always be helped. As a blaster myself, I could watch a tank run in to a group. I don't expect immediate taunt control it doesn't necessarily happen and when it does happen I have to have an idea of who its happened on exactly. Not all auras are autohit, not all taunt ticks happen at the same rate, an attack may miss or the opening attack may have a small area of gauntlet, the aura is only so wide. You can choose who to target and who to be within perception range of, but once the tanker has struck a foe I only hope that after taunt control isn't lost.
[ QUOTE ]
Those that don't do any damage because they are spamming taunt.
[/ QUOTE ]
I am someone who taunts, attacks, checks (pan camera and that) taunt. In leveling up you can't win, you can't please everyone. The hard thing is that you can only make so many "real" mistakes, end up in a level 24 respec pick up group and expected to perform with other players who have also made mistakes and so its best to choose your mistakes, I'd rather have a ranged aggro puller in those circumstances.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps one should consider not WHY TAKE TAUNT?, but WHY NOT?
[/ QUOTE ]Because every single power in my build is more useful than it, and there are still several other powers that would be, but don't fit in.
As for taunting far-away mobs off squishies, I've found that a fire ball in the face does the job quite well.
[/ QUOTE ]
It can and hit more enemies. However, it doesn't do all the jobs taunt can do quite as well.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
[ QUOTE ]
I have both.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have both, and Icicles as well, but I wouldn't not team with someone who didn't. It's a fact that CE is a better aggro manager than Taunt though, I know that from experience. The only difference in thier roles is CE is a debuff as well.
[ QUOTE ]
Something said by someone trigger happy with less knowledge in game mechanics.
[/ QUOTE ]
there is nothing wrong with my knowledge of game mechanics.
simplified,
Hate = ((1000*taunt duration remaining)+threat level)*base aggro.
All attacks, and being in proximity to the mob increase base aggro, but doing damage even a small about of damage increases it much much more.
For example, CE, slotted for taunt will maintain a constant taunt of about 25.75.
If we suppose you have a base aggro of 1, that will give you a total hate of 26000. Doing even a small amount of damage to the target will increas base hate by at least x10, for 260,000 hate.
If instead of CE we use taunt about once evey 4 seconds, we avarage about 58s duration. This gives around 58,000 hate, which beats CE alone, but not CE + damage.
Of course, taunt+damage will give you the most hate, but given that the levels of hate generated by a typical blaster would be around 4000 on the same scale most of the time the excess hate is wasted, and what is really important most of the time is coverage. Taunt can do really good coverage, but only if skillfully targeted.
I really should do something about this signature.
Another factor to take into account is how much aggro can a tank survive?
A Fire/Fire tank generates a lot of aggro simply by virtue of doing a lot of AOE damage. If they taunt as well, they may well faceplant as they don't have the highest suvivability, and a faceplanted tank is about the worst possible thing for team survival.
I really should do something about this signature.
Having both WP and Ice tank as used in the example about I must agree with Praf, an Ice tank not using taunt can hold agro much easier than a WP tank who spams theirs. Infact I find combusion the big saviour on my WP tank because it can hit more in one go than Taunt can, taunt then goes for those I missed. On the ice tank taunt is just for AVs and runners. Both have 6 slotted taunt though, partly cause I was planning to try an STF with each of them and wanted the range boost, otherwise I'd probably stop at 4 cause nothing shy of GW is worth 2 slots that could be doing something better
"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"
Nothing wrong with your knowledge on game mechanics?
There is not a lot that you've said that has led me to believe otherwise.
I took the quote to which I replied...
"Something said by someone trigger happy with less knowledge in game mechanics."
...as something a third person to say.
However, the only difference in a ranged taunt role and a CE role isn't in the debuff nor is it simply in taunting from a squishie whilst say maintaining a debuff zone. It can be used to lower the DPS to oneself and to the team which maybe needed in times of when one is lacking in support versus an enemy that exposes your weaknesses.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
[ QUOTE ]
Another factor to take into account is how much aggro can a tank survive?
A Fire/Fire tank generates a lot of aggro simply by virtue of doing a lot of AOE damage. If they taunt as well, they may well faceplant as they don't have the highest suvivability, and a faceplanted tank is about the worst possible thing for team survival.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, Firetanks can usually then RotP.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
[ QUOTE ]
I'd probably stop at 4 cause nothing shy of GW is worth 2 slots that could be doing something better
[/ QUOTE ]
And there is me needing one less slot with Ghost Widow than I do Recluse. Go figure
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd probably stop at 4 cause nothing shy of GW is worth 2 slots that could be doing something better
[/ QUOTE ]
And there is me needing one less slot with Ghost Widow than I do Recluse. Go figure
[/ QUOTE ]
Having not tanked them yet I'm going on the side of caution, but I've never been on a team that's struggled with LR, but I've been on a few that have battled ages with GW
"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Rofl. Is this thread STILL going on? I really cba to read through all that has been posted since my previous one. And I hardly see the point in this continuing.
[/ QUOTE ]You're new here, aren't you?
We're only on page 2 now, taunt threads tend to go on far longer than that.
[/ QUOTE ]
10 Pages would be remarkably short