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how many classes out there have a power that just isn't useful?
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Scrappers/Night Widows: Confront.
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I plan on tanking Statesman with it on the Night Widow and with a Scrapper can probably tank any AV in the game.
There is probably a lot you can do with figures by throwing them around. Not just your own but other peoples and the enemies too.
At times I will out tank your tauntless Ice tank with an SR with confront.
I can demonstrate.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
My Ice Tank is not tauntless.
Regardless, a scrappers job is to do damage, not take it. If they are taking aggro of a tanker they are doing something wrong. It's easy enough for a scrapper to get lots of single target agro simply by virtue of doing lots of damage. They only need Confront if they want to step on the tankers toes.
I really should do something about this signature.
That wouldn't take much, you get recharge bonus from quickness which means you'll be getting Confront out more often, not even mentioning sets bonuses. The defense on your SR scrapper is a constant, on an Ice tank you need to use EA to push yourself over the defense softcap.
On the other hand Ice has slow effect, Endurance recovery, Damage aura, hp buff and a small buff to perception. Both have resistance to defense debuffs. I do agree you could probably out tank me in an AV fight, but I designed my ice tank with the intention of having short lived group fights.
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My Ice Tank is not tauntless.
Regardless, a scrappers job is to do damage, not take it. If they are taking aggro of a tanker they are doing something wrong. It's easy enough for a scrapper to get lots of single target agro simply by virtue of doing lots of damage. They only need Confront if they want to step on the tankers toes.
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OK, then I can show the difference between a well slotted taunt and a poorly slotted taunt and out tank the Ice Tank anyway...(key words, coming up)..."at times" particularly against certain AVs.
"At times" is a given because ultimately and overall nothing beats a Tanker at Tanking.
Regardless any AT on heroside is a hero doing "whatever it takes" as long as "whatever it takes" is "the right thing to do" and being flexible to create advantageous standpoints or conditions is to me, by design.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
A scrapper can easily out tank a tanker (as in get more aggro) against a single target, if they have a taunt power active, because they do far more damage. This skill is to not take the aggro off the tank, if a tank is available.
If there is no tank in the team, then a scrapper can perform as a backup tank, but they don't really need Confont to do that against a single target (a multi-target taunt would be useful though). If a scrapper takes confront, then they have to forgo an attack, or attack supporting power, so they gain a little flexability at the expense of not being so good in thier primary role.
That's why most scrappers skip Confront (I don't think I have ever seen a scapper use it in fact).
I really should do something about this signature.
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A scrapper can easily out tank a tanker (as in get more aggro) against a single target, if they have a taunt power active, because they do far more damage. This skill is to not take the aggro off the tank, if a tank is available.
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I don't really see that as a skill, I see that has using ones noddle, "leave that power alone". A tanker should be thinking like a tanker and in terms of survivability shaping the battlefield and scrappers should really let it happen unless they can shape it better. 99% of the time to shape it better as a scrapper you'd have to tell the tanker to go sit down.
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If there is no tank in the team, then a scrapper can perform as a backup tank, but they don't really need Confont to do that against a single target (a multi-target taunt would be useful though). If a scrapper takes confront, then they have to forgo an attack, or attack supporting power, so they gain a little flexability at the expense of not being so good in thier primary role.
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Sometimes you do need a single target taunt against a single target in order to tank for the team and keep all of the team alive so they do damage and team damage is maximized. You can get a situation where people are asking for the spammer of heals to stop. This game, is so balanced in places that the entire teams survivability can be made up of relying on secondary effects alone. I am not talking about ones AVs resist I am talking about ones AVs don't resist and should they resist you can either make that secondary effect better in duration or look to some other limitation an AV has. In doing such things though, sometimes another AT or same, providing the damage mainly, may need to not do certain things so as not to be considered a greater threat, dislodge the dynamic and/or create a zone of unsurvivable splash damage. The threat calculation is out and known now but no one as yet has got into just how that can be used to an advantage by putting figures into it. People are still cherry picking powersets for teams, still needing granites and kins in the team for certain things denying toons like Firetanks and Trick Archers a place and a set up with which they can shine.
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That's why most scrappers skip Confront (I don't think I have ever seen a scapper use it in fact).
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I don't think you have either. You can keep other people from getting hit at all. What was the defender for? What was the controller for? Who needs tanks? Why are people running their toggles and losing end recovery? Are all valid questions in some of the most "seemingly" extreme circumstances.
I move towards not cherry picking people of certain powersets in getting anything done and seeing that as the goal. Icetank -> Lord Recluse -> get Sonic + Emp in team? or Anyone in team? I think the game is balanced when one way or another any type of tank can overcome obvious odds someway. Can a SR tank a Lord Recluse with no defender/controller in the team for a small bunch of blappers? To be or not to be? That is the question. I am leaning towards "yes".
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Difference here Shannon is we know you're more then capable of playing your Scrapper that way, but not everyone is as experienced.
The Scrapper can have enough survivability to do it, But the Tank has better tools to control a fight. Which is what the Tank's job is.
I agree it's great if the scrapper wants to tank when there's no Tanker about. However if there is no need to, they shouldn't. It's good to get away from the crutch where people cherry pick teams because they think those sets are best, and totally agree about the Trick Arrows needing more love.
I just don't think this thread addresses the real issue that is effecting most people's ability to tank, in most case's you don't have enough opportunity to shape a battle the way you want to. When you look at why it is almost always because of a trigger happy team acting before they are given the all clear to do so. Why the hell should a blaster speed off ahead and start attacking when no one asked them to pull? why did the controller lock down a group thats all over the place?
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Why the hell should a blaster speed off ahead and start attacking when no one asked them to pull? why did the controller lock down a group thats all over the place?
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Because they're out to give the enemy everything and take from them nothing?
Because they're really batting for the other side?
Because by knowing that everything is ranged, the ranged attack will be energy instead of the lethal melee you wanted and at the same time your Invuln will have reasonably low def?
They wanted that extra guy at the end to not be taunted as yet to kill someone?
Because that's how they've always played and somehow been alright..nvm the bubbler...
Its pretty much how I play villains.
Anything I do with scrappers or any AT is largely a result of everyone around me ie if I am tanking an AV for VEATS and they all move back so they're atleast 61ft away things are probably not going to be as good XD.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Thats somewhat defensive of people that are clearly playing like they would soloing, if they don't want to communicate and don't wish to function are part of a team they might as well go and solo.
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Because that's how they've always played and somehow been alright..nvm the bubbler...
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And just because they've somehow been alright behaving that way doesn't mean a team wants to see them doing it.
If I play to my best ability in a team on any of my Damage dealing ATs (Controller (fire/kin), Scrapper (several) or Blaster (Nrg)) I can out agro a Tauntless Tanker, which in the case of my blaster and controllers mean I invariably die, or have to stop doing any damage so they can regain agro. In a team situation a tankers job is to hold agro so that the team can pound on the mob with some saftey. If a tank can retain agro without taunt in that situation let him/her. If they can't then something is wrong.
It is not down to me to tell them but I can offer advice and generally my advice will be to get taunt and learn to love it.
As for not teaming with a tank without it, if I don't know the tank I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, if I do know them, as in I remember them from previous occasions it depends on what I remember.
Most people on Union who know me know me as a tank. It is the role in the team I enjoy most and it is the role on the team I respect most.
For me, good tanking has 4 key elements. They must be a strong leader who is willing to impose their authority on a team, regardless of who has the star. They must get the balance right between fully assessing a situation they are leading their team into and setting a good pace for the team. They must have the experience to choose the team's killing ground wisely and the technique to execute it. They must have taunt.
I don't buy into all of this "scranking" nonsense, certainly not from a PVE stand point. If I want a scrapper in my team I will get a scrapper and if I want a tank I will get a tank. Two COMPLETELY different roles in a team.
In my experience a tanker without taunt is incapable of performing his role in the team to an acceptable level. May be my standards are too high, may be I haven't enough experience, but I think that taunt is the defining power for a tank and if you are not going to take it you had might as well not play a tank. It would be like playing a defender without taking any buffs/debuffs or playing a blaster without taking any ranged attacks. Yes you can take damage without taunt and yes you can even do a little herding without taunt, and you can easily take alpha strike without taunt, but you have no way of managing the aggro without it and without that you are just a low damage scrapper.
All my opinions of course and I do not expect or demand that everyone agrees with it, and at the end of the day it is their subs and their toon so they can build it and play it however they want to. Personally I don't see why you can't "scrank" with taunt in the build, though.
While we are off topic. What do people have against herding? It doesn't matter how simple or elaborate i explain it there's always someone that has to stand in sight or the troller who has to cage them before they gather. Should i even bother?
People don't like hanging around with nothing to do, even if it means they will earn faster xp in the long run.
If the team doesn't want you to herd, don't.
I really should do something about this signature.
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While we are off topic. What do people have against herding? It doesn't matter how simple or elaborate i explain it there's always someone that has to stand in sight or the troller who has to cage them before they gather. Should i even bother?
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I'd be happy to watch you play rather than assume anything. Herdpoint's are made for several reasons, if they're overly distant from where the spawn was then that's not good and sometimes with clear range and line of sight of others then its ok just to run in and do one spawn. Herd time + fight time doesn't want to be too excessive.
More often than not members of a team compromise themselves and sometimes even you, the tanker, heavily and they tend to base things on a some bloke down the pub said mentality, no real maths involved, no knowledge of what the team is made up of, what debuffs are available, what aoe blasts are available and how many they can hit or how well they can stack.
On a mission with blues and greens I still proved that enemies are fought faster herded than split up. AoE attacks do X damage * 16 in Y time. Spread them out and then it could be X damage * 8 in Y time. Hit singularly then its likely to be 2 to 4 X damage * 1 in 1/2 Y time.
I much rather tank on my terms. There is no game content I fear. I merely fear the people I am doing it with. I have seen all sorts of bloopers. People may have their tanks, who have done the content, but you have to be real and say that the team is different therefore things will be different.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
CoX is so easy, the only way to make it challenging is to team with idiots! 
I really should do something about this signature.
This type of thing:
If I said to someone, don't push the red button and they did, because they wanted to know why and then jeapardized everything for everyone else them idiot is something I'd use to describe them.
Sometimes I'd want people to act now and ask questions later.
But if someone didn't know and was always too busy having fun before to think about it then experience has to come sometime as it did for everyone and so I don't think they're idiots.
We all have n00b moments.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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While we are off topic. What do people have against herding? It doesn't matter how simple or elaborate i explain it there's always someone that has to stand in sight or the troller who has to cage them before they gather. Should i even bother?
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how many classes out there have a power that just isn't useful?
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Scrappers/Night Widows: Confront.
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Well thats just not true, they have confront to annoy the tank, agro an AV and die ^_^