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The scrappers built up damage, used confront and from being next to the AV took aggro.
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WUT?Afaik in this game this aggro mechanic is not in place where damage generates threat indicators capable of breaking aggro like in WoW?
[/ QUOTE ]Thus the part about using confront (the scrapper ST taunt). Without it (or an aura), the amount of damage needed to take aggro off a tank would be unrealistic.
Right found the threat value formula which is actually:
ThreatValue = Damage * DebuffValue * ThreatMod * DistanceMod * TargetMod * TauntDurationRemaining
Anyway this games threat system is a big substitue to a proper "hate" system and this is why encounters not work so well.
Afaik there are but very few AT threat level scripts (kheldians for example) which is even more meh.
As far as taunting from range,i have taunted from range,wont do it again unless for single targets simply because there is no need to kite taunt in teams and not using gauntlet to taunt even more effectively and avoid situation where taunt will break.
Would like to know if this has any effect in PvP?Taunting someone from close or from range having an impact in taunt duration.
Yes that came from Aett Thorn after discussing it with Castle. I preferred to give you a quote from Castle as we don't click.
Gauntlet isn't necessarily a more effective taunt. I've described gauntlet as poo many a time and thats with one tank with a tohit pass 45%, rage obviously, so yes thats good damage. Your subject to accuracy and endurance levels so thats where people may start worrying about having a kin or something in particular because after a long fight someone can be out of steam. Neuron for example does -endurance, -recovery.
In teams it can pay to kite mobs depending on mob level and the damage type your better off receiving and the team make up. It can pay off. Knowing the enemy, your limitations and what the team can do really pays off. Where a Firetank can't possibly survive the level of lethal damage for example without support. He can keep the damage mainly made up of energy where they fire their ranged attacks rather than get their blades out and severely dice him. The ranged attacks all in all can in different ways effectively be lower DPS. Everyone lives, everyones a winner. Sometimes just because there is no healer to help it doesn't make things impossible.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I would doubt range is a factor in PvP as in PvP surely taunt must act more like a locked confuse mez as surely there would be no need to calculate threat rating in a PvP battle ( no AI decisions to be made ). Perhaps I'm wrong someone may well know better.
And surely the whole idea of PvE tanking would fall apart if mobs really did attack the most threatening oppenent ( by dmg) the 'tank' wouldn't get a look in until all his mates were dead and then said spawn would probably wittle him down or he would retreat. All in all it's a bit of a conceit to allow a certain team dynamic to excist, and I'm quite happy to turn a blind eye. Just how I see it anyway.
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In teams it can pay to kite mobs depending on mob level and the damage type your better off receiving and the team make up. It can pay off. Knowing the enemy, your limitations and what the team can do really pays off.
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Kiting might work in pugs but in experienced teams is fail tactic in my book.
Dont need to kite because everyone rotates based on tank position in appropriate line of sight anyway.
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In teams it can pay to kite mobs depending on mob level and the damage type your better off receiving and the team make up. It can pay off.
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I am talking exclusively for end game here since thats only area of game i am really interested in , with current AT limits having been extended so much there aint really things you cant tank without going afk 99% of times.
Game shows its lack of higher challenge at the moment at high levels for experienced players.
0 tactical involvement really since the encounters are nothing special and the AI behaviour dont offer much excitement currently in upper levels especially where characters mature.
Apologies to OP for derailing a bit.
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tanking would fall apart if mobs really did attack the most threatening oppenent ( by dmg) the 'tank' wouldn't get a look in until all his mates were dead and then said spawn would probably wittle him down or he would retreat.
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I really disagree with this.I have posted many times that this game needs a proper "Hate" system.
The most shining example of such system is the abomination we call WoW.While i dont judge the game as a whole its encounter system is at least brilliant.
The dynamics of encounters are shining example of what encounters should be.
Its a system where the deeper u get the more it rewards experienced players and makes it easy to separate skilled players.
OverDPSing,Overhealing result in breaking threat counters and turn upside down teams,and encounters.
Its a system that this game is simply begging but unknown why it has been denied so long.
Introducing heal threat indicators and making damage a real possible threat of breaking aggro would open up for scripting some wonderful encounters in this game.
Like i said this is my opinion based on the fact i am exclusively an end game player tho and i understand in a game where one of its amin purposes is rerolling alts this hasnt been a priority.
Perhaps Wow has a more finally balanced threat system than Coh I have no experience of it and so cannot say but to my mind even that system must be fairly biased, in a real world situtaion are you really gonna hit the tough guy who you can hardly hurt but isn't really doing much other than stand there or the guy who's killing all you mates or the damn healer who is stopping you killing all them, too me the whole concept of a 'tank' is somewhat a falicy.
When I came to this game the only Tanks I knew was those on the battlefield.
They can take a beating where as the infantry can't.
From Wiki, In gaming jargon, a tank is a player or unit designated to protect weaker players or units in combat by drawing enemy attacks and absorbing damage.
So as far as thats concerned its fine.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Game shows its lack of higher challenge at the moment at high levels for experienced players.
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Experienced players..
They could always nerfbat themselves, form gimped teams and then prove to themselves that despite the nerfbatting there are ways to get thru the hardest parts of the game. If you overpower yourselves when the game is made to be done with teams half full of messed up concept builds your not going to be challenged.
It could be time to move on 
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Game shows its lack of higher challenge at the moment at high levels for experienced players.
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Experienced players..
They could always nerfbat themselves, form gimped teams and then prove to themselves that despite the nerfbatting there are ways to get thru the hardest parts of the game. If you overpower yourselves when the game is made to be done with teams half full of messed up concept builds your not going to be challenged.
It could be time to move on
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This is not only totally wrong but completely out of place.When the game allows to reach a certain level of gameplay it should offer an equivelant challenge for that level as well.
Its no secret that after ED was placed to take the power away and give it back with crafting system as part of the end game the devs forgot to put a switch that gave an extra layer of difficulty.
Its no secret that the game is piece of cake at higher levels at this moment,despite the efforts made by some who aint done any other serious organised endgame to present it as rocketscience and the equivelant of NASA launching rockets to Mars, and frankly saying that one should gimp himself instead of the devs providing an added challenge is at least ridicilous considering its part of the QoL features requested.
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It could be time to move on
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It could be time to get a grip with gaming reality as well cause prehistoric difficulty levels and afk tanking possible encounters aint exactly what you call money making and population expanding and the competition is coming fast paced.And while concept is nice MMO developing companies dont exactly pay bills with concept money.
Oh yeah sec
there we go.
Current policy seems to be that lowering the difficulty is the way forward.
After all, there are far more casual players than there are hardcore.
I really should do something about this signature.
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Its no secret that the game is piece of cake at higher levels at this moment,despite the efforts made by some who aint done any other serious organised endgame to present it as rocketscience and the equivelant of NASA launching rockets to Mars, and frankly saying that one should gimp himself instead of the devs providing an added challenge is at least ridicilous considering its part of the QoL features requested.
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It's not rocket science, never was, the problem is people bring all they know from other games to this one, it causes tunnel vision, they're fixated on resistance, heals, defense and damage most the time when there is so much else to play with.
What I find dumb is people with the attitude of "If I can't do it, no one can, log into forums and wah wah to the Devs how things need to be fixed because of it". They'd never get a job creating a game. I can see why the developers are doing their job and the players begging for I win buttons aren't. If all games were the same why aren't we all playing the most populated one, leave other games at the door.
The Devs datamine and the fact that most people are bite sized players matters more, logging in with some concept toon hoping to meet friends and be of some value. They couldn't give a toss about me having a couple of hundred levels over 2000 levels in total as I am in some small percentage, scratching my head wondering what I haven't done yet and I don't mind at all.
I see people quit on the simplest of things or turn around and think changing to another character with such and such was the only answer. Tanks doing an STF run and being followed by 3 controllers and 4 defenders..I mean [censored] was the tank for? Why not use a scrapper? A scrapper would be better surely? I love the no AT thing and love to find ways of no particular powerset needed as well. The time Rads were wanted defeating GMs and AVs were dark times to me. There was I a scrapper tanking Diabolique for 45 mins and it just got boring.
Some people wouldn't dare try some content without a healer and those people exist all the way from the lowest level to those that call themselves experienced. An Invuln needs tough apparently, a firetank needs tough apparently, you have to have a granite apparently. I have you know there are circumstances where its better for someones granite to sit down and let a scrapper with confront who knows what they're doing, do the tanking.
I'd be willing to show Praf stuff, on one proviso, I don't mind him saying what I basically did but I do mind him saying how I basically did it. People want more challenges left in this game like yaself TG and so its only fair that we leave them there because once you know the magic trick, the magic is gone.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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This is not only totally wrong but completely out of place.When the game allows to reach a certain level of gameplay it should offer an equivelant challenge for that level as well.
[/ QUOTE ]And then it needs to offer equivalent rewards, or people won't participate in that content.
And if those rewards increase the power of the characters, then you'll need to create the next tier of high-end content to challenge those characters.
And so on and so forth.
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And then it needs to offer equivalent rewards, or people won't participate in that content.
And if those rewards increase the power of the characters, then you'll need to create the next tier of high-end content to challenge those characters.
And so on and so forth.
[/ QUOTE ]So, in other words... endgame progression?
Like in other MMORPGs?
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And then it needs to offer equivalent rewards, or people won't participate in that content.
And if those rewards increase the power of the characters, then you'll need to create the next tier of high-end content to challenge those characters.
And so on and so forth.
[/ QUOTE ]So, in other words... endgame progression?
Like in other MMORPGs?
[/ QUOTE ]In other words, a neverending loop where new content is out of reach of players who haven't grinded the old content to obtain the gear required to do the new stuff.
So yeah, like other MMO's.
What shannon said reminded me of what I do love about the balance of this game that a - in one area can quite easily be balanced by a ++ in another. If you get my meaning
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Tanks doing an STF run and being followed by 3 controllers and 4 defenders..I mean [censored] was the tank for? Why not use a scrapper? A scrapper would be better surely? I love the no AT thing and love to find ways of no particular powerset needed as well.
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The answer to this is reallty the same one as the question raised by the poster.
The Tanker probably asked to join and they accepted because they weren't playing in the "scientific" way. They were just setting up a team made of bodies and it fell like that.
I see this taunt question all the time and it's a similar answer. Should Tankers have taunt? The question should never arise because it only has one answer.
Yes and no.
The boards are full of people who understand the mechanics of the powers. How invinces agg aura works, its range, tick time, guantlet and so on. And they play in a manner dedicated to theme. So they are happy to run around the map grabbing and regrabbing the aggro. They know when the blaster has taken the aggro off them and so on.
But there are others, probably not many of these boards but littered all over the game, who, like me, dont know or want to know such things and yet they want to Tank. And do their teams justice. Thats where taunt is an absolute must.
If you take me, I just play the game. I dont know how guantlet range is or how much damage I deliver over time etc. not numerically. I just look at what the power does and act accordingly.
So, if you, Shannon, had a team in Union and I had an identical one on Defiant and we were on te same mission, I'd need taunt to play to the same (or close) level of Tanking as you do without it.
I am simply too casual a player to fully appreciate the naunces of the sets overall aggro management. I know what it does but not necessarily how or why or what.
Taunt though, is auto hit and tells me who ive taunted and who I havent and, without great effort that my playstyle doesnt allow me to exert all the time, I can pretty much tell if I'm holding the aggro or not because its effect last longer.
Taunt is the "dummys guide " to Tanking. There's nothing wrong with that. The game is designed to play it in as complex or casual manner as you wish and still achieve a reasoonable result as long as you are dilligent.
So without Taunt, the casual Tanker can't operate in a manner as befits the AT. Whereas, an experienced oplayer who understands literally HOW the set or rather aggro management works, can do just as well, if not better, without it.
So as I stated. Yes a Tanker needs it. No a Tanker doesnt.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
id personally take taunt on any tank, the same way i would take hasten on any toon or aim or build up on a blaster.
id do it because holding aggro is what a tank does best and taunt is a great (but not only) way of doing this.
tbh most tanks ive seen without taunt ive seen seem to have scranker builds, i can always tell how seriously someone takes there responsibility as a tank by the amount of offensive moves they have 
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tbh most tanks ive seen without taunt ive seen seem to have scranker builds, i can always tell how seriously someone takes there responsibility as a tank by the amount of offensive moves they have
[/ QUOTE ]And it never occurred to you that those moves might be there for the times when aggro control doesn't require much effort?
No, that would be something punctual, not important enough to base your build on
Well Lionsbane thanks for the Threadromancy it took you all of 2 weeks to come up with that 'I'm sitting on the fence' reply
Appendix
After getting to a higher level and throwing a couple of Procs in the beast well Ladies and Genteleman Woot Taunt FTW
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tbh most tanks ive seen without taunt ive seen seem to have scranker builds, i can always tell how seriously someone takes there responsibility as a tank by the amount of offensive moves they have
[/ QUOTE ]And it never occurred to you that those moves might be there for the times when aggro control doesn't require much effort?
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I have a repeatable attack chain with only 3 damage attacks from my secondary there's no need for more than that because i would have them queuing, now if i had taken all of the available attacks and no taunt....well it wouldn't make me a better tank would it.
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I have a repeatable attack chain with only 3 damage attacks from my secondary there's no need for more than that because i would have them queuing, now if i had taken all of the available attacks and no taunt....well it wouldn't make me a better tank would it.
[/ QUOTE ]ST attack chain? How about AoE?
Castle said something like this:
Taunt effects aren't a 100% over-ride of threat level. They are, instead, a MASSIVE multiplier to your existing threat level. Threat level itself is determined based on an archetype modifier plus other factors - for example, a damaging attack generates a total threat using a formula kind of like:
DMG x Taunt_Duration_Remaining x Archetype_Threat_Mod x AI_Preferences x Range_Mod
(AI Preferences can be things like "I prefer to attack Scrappers", "I *really* hate Kheldians!", "Kill the healer!", "Attack the last person to attack me!" or any of about 40 or 50 other variables).
Archetype Threat Mod Ratings:
Tanker, Brute = 4
Scrapper = 3
Kheldian = 2 (3 in Dwarf form)
Stalker, Mastermind = 2
Everyone else = 1
Taunt Archetype Multipliers (which affect Taunt Duration):
Tanker, Brute, Stalker = 1
Kheldians = 0.85
Scrapper = 0.75
Everyone else = 0.5
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I bolded the range bit as in the case you quoted, it proved true. He had damage and range on his side and I had everything else on my side. To counter what other people can do my taunt duration has been maxxed before to have a long taunt duration remaining.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.