Debt - Has it become pointless?
By
Baby_Phoenix,
Posted on: 2008-06-13 05:49 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I can type with my toes! 
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
I would be against scaling up debt for team size for the reason that it might discourage teaming.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think debt should scale depending on the AT
[/ QUOTE ]
This could be a bad idea. I'm reminded of experience penalties for certain classes and races in EQ1, and how they marginalised those classes/races and disincentivized players from playing them.
[/ QUOTE ]
Certain ATs may underperform in teams at certain levels. This is normally because no bugger is playing by design. You can't fix it but only accomodate it by what datamining tells you. /Ice tanks suffered during a level region and the never taken or never used properly frozen aura would of appeased that - and I know it. 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In some way a hero or villain side should care about whether or not a team mate dies be it out of roleplay or the fact that their leveling has slowed rather than the "I am alright Jack" attitudes some have with people eating dust around them.
[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed, but I think enforcing this by means of gameplay measures is a massive massive mistake. In fact I have proof of that theory failing in practice. In early EverQuest 2 when a team member died, their debt was shared amongst the entire team. The Dev team thought this would encourage teamwork, ensuring that teammates stayed together and protected each other. In beta with a close-knit community this worked pretty well.
What actually happened in release was that players who were prone to dying a lot (for whatever reason) started to become infamous so they started getting black-listed from groups. Also when some people decided they were quitting the game or deleting a character they would get a group together (often with themselves as leader) and die several times in quick succession to grief the group with debt.
[/ QUOTE ]
I said nothing about debt sharing.
Not this time anyway 
and perhaps in that game the debt was too high.
Anyway I am only hoping for a method to make people think "awww no so and so died, what can we do to prevent it?" rather than say some tank who dont do his job properly thinking "ha ha that n00B is always dying." I do have some sense of RP so in many cases a defeat somewhere isn't popular. My sense of RP had prevented debt badges from being on my wanted list at one point and thats why I rather a change in text on it, many players do hate debt, defeat means they r teh fail and so on.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
[ QUOTE ]
I would be against scaling up debt for team size for the reason that it might discourage teaming.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think the idea is, when solo it takes x amount of time to work off and you hate it, when teamed it takes no amount of time to work off and ppl think that a friend dying should a) be understanding, feel the players loss and feel like a change in tacts is needed and b) be worked off at the same rate to cause more carefulness by the player.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
[ QUOTE ]
I said nothing about debt sharing.
Not this time anyway and perhaps in that game the debt was too high.
[/ QUOTE ]
I know, but I wanted to give a proven example of how team-based differences for debt compared to solo can disincentivize teaming, just like the point Sir_Helm was making.
And from what I remember the debt in EQ2 was still fairly pitiful back then (they've removed xp debt completely now, iirc), but it was player perception of other people giving you debt or having an affect on your debt that was what affected the community's attitude to teaming. Players there weren't thinking "well I should team up, because if I do die it's less debt for me than if I die solo and I'm earning xp faster" - but they were thinking "teaming with these people is having an affect on the debt I get" and that leads to blame and people preferring to stay solo (so you're purely responsible for your own debt) or with friends (who are less likely to blame you for being defeated).
Ok in your example that is because players would get more debt for their own death because they were on a (larger) team, and in the EQ2 case it was because players would get debt if other teammates died, but in both cases there would be a perception that you were being punished for teaming and the potential for teammates blaming you for their debt bar increasing.
Here's a thought that ought to balance things out a little more...
We already have difficulty levels that scale various things... why not scale the debt with that? Y'know, leave it on heroic and suffer debt as it is now or bung it on invincible and have good old I3 flavour debt.
[ QUOTE ]
Here's a thought that ought to balance things out a little more...
We already have difficulty levels that scale various things... why not scale the debt with that? Y'know, leave it on heroic and suffer debt as it is now or bung it on invincible and have good old I3 flavour debt.
[/ QUOTE ]
Now that's a suggestion I can wholeheartedly embrace.
Now we just have to hope one of the Devs visits this forum, reads it and likes it
[ QUOTE ]
Just because most of the people on this board (predominantly people whove been here for a good while, and hence rather good at the game) can avoid most debt, it does not mean that Johnny Newbie will be able to.
[/ QUOTE ]I assure you, most newbies can't play fast enough to rack up as much debt as I can.
[ QUOTE ]
Here's a thought that ought to balance things out a little more...
We already have difficulty levels that scale various things... why not scale the debt with that? Y'know, leave it on heroic and suffer debt as it is now or bung it on invincible and have good old I3 flavour debt.
[/ QUOTE ]This would be awesome for PuG's.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here's a thought that ought to balance things out a little more...
We already have difficulty levels that scale various things... why not scale the debt with that? Y'know, leave it on heroic and suffer debt as it is now or bung it on invincible and have good old I3 flavour debt.
[/ QUOTE ]This would be awesome for PuG's.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hah I agree, currently random PUGs can pretty much just repetadly throw themselves at the enemy until they run out of enemy. Scaling with difficulty would mean that stickig it on highest difficulty would make it challenging and some of the middle difficulties would get an airing
It's not running away. It's advancing in reverse!
Evie your idea is a damn good one. People play in inv for more XP - the penalties should be higher too - this way people get a choice how the choose to play - easy route on Heroic with minimal debt, or all guns blazing on Invincible with associated debt increase! I would put this on the suggestions board and link it back here so there is a chance it would be seen by a Dev
Golden-Phoenix - Lvl 50 Fire/Fire Tank
Oodja Nikabolokov - Lvl 50 SS/WP Brute
Baby-Phoenix - Lvl 50 Peacebringer
How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could Chuck Norris?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just because most of the people on this board (predominantly people whove been here for a good while, and hence rather good at the game) can avoid most debt, it does not mean that Johnny Newbie will be able to.
[/ QUOTE ]I assure you, most newbies can't play fast enough to rack up as much debt as I can.
[/ QUOTE ]
You've justg got more experience when it comes to debt, their debt has more emotiona attached and is far more real, for you debt is just part of the character, like bad colour co-ordination
"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"
[ QUOTE ]
I dunno what game you lot are playing, but the math just doesn't add up. I play a (currently) 43 Thugs/Poison MM, and I solo a lot on Malicious rep. When I die I get about 25k debt, yet the mobs I kill only give me around 1-1.2k xp each, and often there arent 25 mobs on the whole level. So, I don't see how that works for you guys...
[/ QUOTE ]
Welcome to the forum, by the way
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
[ QUOTE ]
Here's a thought that ought to balance things out a little more...
We already have difficulty levels that scale various things... why not scale the debt with that? Y'know, leave it on heroic and suffer debt as it is now or bung it on invincible and have good old I3 flavour debt.
[/ QUOTE ]
I like this but some ATs will underperform more than others in PuGs and not by their own means. So the datamining of performance is probably important. I think debt protection should cap debt for a set time period to, at most, what it is already.
Total Debt = Debt*Level Modifier*Team Number Modifier*Mission Setting Modifier*Performance Modifier
If Protected then Total Debt = (Debt*Level Modifier/100)Debt Protection Value -1
Performance modifier has a limited range.
*cough*
Would that work? XD
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
My 2 inf, Debt is pointless, apart from the badge on CoV needed for the accolade.
They really need to up debt to far higher levels. Ideally more than ever.
Defence based toons need to add more to a team rather than it simply being all about damage.
Erm, can we not just have a slider system implemented so that those crazies who want more debt for whatever crazy reason can up it manually?
Or maybe you folks could play with one hand behind your back when you die until you're debt-free, or blindfolded for 5 minutes, or move the 3D Resolution Scaling slider to minimum when you die to punish yourself for a few minutes?
"Spank me harder!"
[url=http://vox-doom.deviantart.com]Take A Gander At This.[/url]
i agree with the point that debt is virtually myth now with very little preseance among teams, and i think it does need to be tweaked, but ot to its original state either, when i was levling my blaster it was stuck at lvl 31 for about 3 months because i got bored with having debt cap which only took 5 deaths (not exactly hard for a blaster )
id say drop the 1/2 debt in instances, raise the debt cap by 10% and the debt incurred by 40% and i reckon it'll b somewhat better, and it'll definatly help teach the new generation of players survivability like it did in the old days of issue3....those were the days *sigh*
@Infurnus
@Infurnus Mech
My honoured bretheren. We come together, to unite as one, against those that are damned, we show no mercy, for we have none, our enemies shall fall, as we uprise, to claim our fate, now and forever, we'll be together, in love and hate - Jason "Shyboy" Arnold
Never one to speak my mind much on these forums, I saw this and had to speak.
In other MMO's death, IE loss of all hit points, can result in some harsh penalties, WoW its a cost of armour/weapon damage and either a potentially LONG hike back to collect your body, or almost half an hour of being weak as a kitten. In FFXI you lose exp and face a potentially LONG hike back to your group.
either way its a pain in the rear not only for YOU but for EVERYONE YOUR TEAMED WITH. this often results in name calling and accusation as to who's fault it is and so on.
one of the main reasons I personally like CoH/CoV is that people are generally ok if you die in a large team. Especially now as you can make an awaken from other insps, and in some cases its helpful to the team if you do! I'm not a big player of ranged sets but if I remember correctly there's at least one set who's "nuke" is based on casting on a dead team-mate (rad defender set I think), and what about vengance? it'd become a next to pointless power if people were scared of taking on a little debt..
So debt isnt a discouragement for some people, big whoop. Would you rather have your team shouting at you for stopping their exp/inf flow for half an hour while you trudge back? would you rather risk loosing 2-3 levels, representing hours of work because someone wasnt paying attention for a moment?
keep debt as it is, maybe increase it a little at later levels so the "badgers" can get their badges and feel like they earned it.
just my two inf
[ QUOTE ]
Here's a thought that ought to balance things out a little more...
We already have difficulty levels that scale various things... why not scale the debt with that? Y'know, leave it on heroic and suffer debt as it is now or bung it on invincible and have good old I3 flavour debt.
[/ QUOTE ]
Excellent idea. This one gets my vote. With great rewards come great risks as it should be.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm probably going to get lynched for this.... but.. Implement negative XP for defeat, and de-levelling!
[/ QUOTE ]
I tend to agree with this in some way... When playing the good old tabletop RPGs, the one thing that would scare you as a player would be a level drain! It would certainly crystalise the mind a bit more than our current situation.
As most people seem to have commented, debt is far too inconsequential in the game now. The biggest penalty for defeat now is the run back from the hospital - and even that is becoming less frequent with the ability to combine insps for a wakie.
When I first started playing I remember getting seemingly huge amounts of debt at lower level, and I'm convinced it made me a better player - sometimes staying alive was an heroic struggle but now, there's nothing heroic or challenging in defeat. For a game called City of Heroes, that's kind of disappointing.
I too remember exemping high level toons in the hollows, and that gave us something to aspire to (and gave the Hollows a bigger raison d'etre than it has now, despite the revamp, tho to be fair there wasn't much else to do from lvl 5-10 in those days.
Seems to me that without some severe penalty for defeat the game is less exciting than previously.
Thelonious Monk
As far as arguments made so far are concerned I think I have noted 5 main arguments from those calling for more debt (sorry if I missed something out):
1.
Easier to obtain debt badges.
2.
Required to stay in debt in order not to outlevel contacts
3.
Required to make defence/support characters more needed? (Cognito)
4.
Required to make the game more exciting/challenging/penalising of reckless play.
5.
A more general notion that debt has become pointless and should be increased.
For those of us against an increase in debt the main arguments seem to be:
1.
The agony and consequences of defeat such as having to travel back to mission/defeat point etc. are already sufficient to create excitement and to discourage reckless play.
2.
More debt will just lead to increased frustration, perhaps especially for new/casual players.
3.
More debt might adversely affect teaming/teaming with new players, as veteran players might chose to either just solo or avoid teaming with new/inexperienced players in order to avoid debt.
4.
Especially as regards PUGs, more debt could lead to the team disbanding and abusive remarks being exchanged rather than the team sticking together and enabling new players to learn form the more experienced ones, and new friends being made.
5.
More debt could lead to players being less inclined to seek new challenges from the game (like e.g. increase of difficulty level) and thus playing it safe, which could lead to people becoming tired of the game more quickly.
6.
More debt could lead to more egotistical play, i.e. better to cautiously skirt the surroundings and take out a few easy minions rather than to help the tank with that nasty Elite Boss.
I think the points made from both sides of the argument are understandable and it probably mostly boils down to personal preferences.
Thats why, if this really was to be changed, I think the most sensible solution would be the one suggested by Vox, where increased debt would be a personal selection as a slider under options. In that way those who want extra debt can have it, and those who dont can avoid it.
Just as a small anecdotal curiosum, I was reading up on the most recent comments in this thread during breaks last night when I was doing the Cimemora TF with some friends.
And there were many breaks, because despite all of us being experienced players with I think an average well above 3 years and multiple 50s, we suffered many, many defeats, sometimes due to our own mistakes and being a little tired and/or careless, but frequently also because the enemies and spawns were hard and challenging just as they should be.
My point with this is; I dont think the current debt levels made any difference to our enjoyment/excitement levels in the positive sense.
We all tried to fight as heroically as possible and help each other out and cursed whenever we died, for being defeated and for perhaps having to go to hospital and regroup etc. Personally, the debt annoyed me because I just dislike having debt, and at one point I had quite a collection, but in the end when we finally finished the missions, the debt was just cleared and it was a break-even.
Now, if debt had been increased as some people are calling for, it would have had a tremendous adverse impact on at least my enjoyment level in the negative sense.
I think I might have thought twice before flinging my regen scrapper heroically into the battle next to the tanker fighting purple bosses that could and did frequently kill me even before my opening attack animation was finished. I also think I would quite probably have flung my computer screen through the window in frustration and felt like I never wanted to play COH again if the debt had been any higher.
So, all in all, we had a fun and challenging experience, which from our perspective means the game is WAI, but this balance could very easily have been tipped in favour of frustration if I had had to log off last night with two bubbles of debt to clear on a 41 character.
So, in conclusion, if debt is changed, please make it optional so those of us that dont want this can avoid it.
i rather have it lowered then see it pointless, it's annoying to lvl your butt of and then dieing ones....now i have to do it all over again...
i rather have a death penalty where my HP endurance and power output is lower for 2 minutes then having to grind even more for a lvl.
[ QUOTE ]
i rather have it lowered then see it pointless, it's annoying to lvl your butt of and then dieing ones....now i have to do it all over again...
i rather have a death penalty where my HP endurance and power output is lower for 2 minutes then having to grind even more for a lvl.
[/ QUOTE ]
Too easy. Spend that 2 mins in the AH and where's the challenge?
Debt is good!
Thelonious Monk
Sorry everyone, it seems FFM hasn't had his medication yet...
Though I have to admit I'm impressed at his posting skill while in a straightjacket.
@ShadowGhost & @Ghostie
The Grav Mistress, Mistress of Gravity
If you have nothing useful to say, you have two choices: Say something useless or stay quiet.