Debt - Has it become pointless?
By
Baby_Phoenix,
Posted on: 2008-06-13 05:49 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Yeah debt is utterly pointless now - I bet if it wasn't for the badges the Devs would have removed it entirely. The debt protection bonuses on certain set IOs bug me too - if they didn't exist those sets might have a useful bonus instead!
Defeat itself is barely a blip now that it's so easy to get awakens (from combining other insps) - I actually considered not taking the rez on my L50 Corruptor because of that, and it makes the sets with self-rezzes slightly less attractive (regen/WP/fire/dark) than they already were for having a self-rez (in fire & dark's cases instead of a "godmode" power). Defeat needs to have a penalty that players are keen to avoid - it encourages concentration and skill and disincentivizes stupidity 
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I'm probably going to get lynched for this.... but.. Implement negative XP for defeat, and de-levelling!
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It wouldn't bother me - EverQuest had that, and it was generally much harder to survive there than it is here. Admittedly in EverQuest some of my friends delevelled so much on some of their characters that they basically gave up on them and never played them again 
- then there were the corpse runs... /shudder
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Make debt huge, but have none incurred by an on-map resurrection or personal resurrection power, only if you go to the hospital.
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You just gave me an idea. Instead of adjusting xp debt upwards again how about getting infamy/influence debt as well as xp debt? It would give L50s more of a reason to avoid defeat, which xp debt obviously doesnt.
As for rationale, think of it as you thanking/paying/owing the hospital for use of their medical teleporter and their care, or taking a hit to your "image" and your influence within the hero community for actually being defeated in the first place. I dont know how much inf each death would cost you - that would be something for the Devs to set - but it should be high enough that it stings.
Then the different methods of being resurrected could mitigate some of that cost:
100% xp/inf cost - using the hospital (full cost, because its always available to everyone)
75% xp/inf cost - using an Awaken (easy to get)
50% xp/inf cost - using SG base reclaimator (makes them more attractive to PvE SGs)
25% xp/inf cost - being resurrected by another player using a power
0% xp/inf cost - using a self-rez power (Dark/Fire/WP/Regen)
I guess those crappy debt bonuses on set IOs could mitigate some of the inf cost too, like they do with xp debt, just for parity.
Don't touch the debt, please. 
@MidnightGuard - on Union you may know me as:
Mr. Vile - Electroman X - Zenodorus - Battler
Naga Knight - Stinkspitter
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Don't touch the debt, please.
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But debt incurred after a defeat should be a bit higher.. I mean, what's the point of avoiding defeat if the penalty takes place for only 1 or 2 minutes of your life when you're most of the time just lying on the ground waiting for an awaken or rez! The penalty is pretty much non-existant
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
I am glad it isn't just me who feels that debt has become a pointless aspect of the game 
I just felt it a shame that debt went from being 'Oh God No I'll Never Level Now' to 'Meh' in a short space of time
Golden-Phoenix - Lvl 50 Fire/Fire Tank
Oodja Nikabolokov - Lvl 50 SS/WP Brute
Baby-Phoenix - Lvl 50 Peacebringer
How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could Chuck Norris?
It looks as if I am pretty much alone on this viewpoint so far, but I would just like to voice my firm opinion against any increase in the current debt levels.
Personally, I pretty much hate having debt on my characters even at the current levels, and I have never felt any even remote "enhancement" of my gaming experience by having the additional "bonus" of being penalised with debt when being defeated.
For me the annoyance/embarassment of being defeated along with perhaps having to run across a zone and then 4 floors of a map to get back to the final boss, who defeated you in the first place is more than enough punishment, not to mention the additional agony if you happen to be defeated as an MM, with having to summon and buff all pets again etc.
I am genuinely puzzled as to why so many players are calling for an increase of debt. I can understand the debt-badge argument, and the argument from people who want to stay in debt in order not to outlevel contacts, but apart from that what is the point of calling for increased self-punishment in the form of penalties and slowing of progress?
This request coming from the players seems to me a bit like an imaginary group of bank-robbers discussing how things were much better in the old days when a conviction landed you 30 years in prison instead of the current 15.
Also, I do have a concern that an increase of the debt level might adversely affect teaming, especially PUGs. I remember several instances back in the "old debt days" of being in a low-level PUG in Hollows with instant death lurking round every corner both in and out of missions, and people quitting in frustration after a quick series of defeats and pertinent bubbles of debt. Nowadays, in my experience, most people seem to take defeats like that much easier and teams stay together without people getting too upset about raking up tons of debt and quitting.
In my opinion, increase of debt levels would also contradict the recent QOL-improvements such as the redesign of the Hollows and the smoothing of the XP-curve, and I think this would be a bad thing especially for the casual players, and - as far as I see - for no real purpose. Perhaps debt has become more "pointless", but to me this is a thing to applaud, not a problem.
If they increasesd the debt, I wouldn't play my toons how I currently do, like a complete loon.
When I wanted the debt badges, I just capped my debt from dieing constantly in SC to a mob and running back out again. Pretty easy to cap yourself like that.
Debt is pointless, I'le agree, and I often barely notice it. I think the Devs wanted to make it easier for people to hit lvl 50 and so get more out of all the end game content they are creating.
The idea of an inf debt is interesting, but how would you work it out? Lowbie toons might go broke from this, and players with huge amounts of inf wouldnt care. A percentage of the inf you have on you? I'de just leave it all at the BM.
I'm off to go play my toon like a loon, its more fun that way
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Lowering Debt was a nerf aimed at Villains!
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Sir, you also make me 'lol'! Have a necrocookie.
Debt never really mattered to me because I consider it a bad day when debt clips over to the next xp bar. I tend to leave trainwreck teams pretty shortly if there's no sign of improvement.
It's good to see another PoV in this - I would be happy to see debt removed - badges and all - after all - there have been other badges that are unavailable to a lot of people (1st/2nd anniversary etc) and the debt badges could be replaced with 'Defeated X Times' badges with badges awadred at 100; 250; 500 etc etc
Golden-Phoenix - Lvl 50 Fire/Fire Tank
Oodja Nikabolokov - Lvl 50 SS/WP Brute
Baby-Phoenix - Lvl 50 Peacebringer
How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could Chuck Norris?
Hi Guys - havent posted in a while - but thought i would add my 2 inf on this one
what about applying a multiplyer to the debt equal to the number of people on the team.
so if you are soloing - you get the base amount of debt as it is now, if your in a team of 8 players - you get 8x the debt - after all you get xp 8 times as quick.
That way it will take you longer to get rid of the debt, and so make you more liable to not just rush in and die all the time
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Hi Guys - havent posted in a while - but thought i would add my 2 inf on this one
what about applying a multiplyer to the debt equal to the number of people on the team.
so if you are soloing - you get the base amount of debt as it is now, if your in a team of 8 players - you get 8x the debt - after all you get xp 8 times as quick.
That way it will take you longer to get rid of the debt, and so make you more liable to not just rush in and die all the time
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Now THAT is an idea! I'de probably still rush in though...on my 50s at least
I dont use IO's apart from the normal ones - no sets in my builds. I still see a bit of debt if a squishy dies, but on my tanker, it goes relatively during one mission.
It doesn'#t really bother me - if debt was back at i3 / or even levels it was at a year or so ago - it'd mean more influence made to less xp.
Why not have an impact in influence gained when you have debt, too?
I guess they could always remove debt completely and instead add a scaling bonus for survival. Maybe a cumulative 1% inf & xp bonus for every full block of xp you've earned since your last defeat, capping at 100% (so basically 10 levels without a defeat would cap the bonus and you'd effectively be earning double the usual xp/inf til you are defeated), starting from level 10 - but as soon as you are defeated the entire bonus is completely wiped out.
Then when you hit level 50 it could be 10% inf bonus for each block of xp you "earn" while on L50 (they'd have to change the levelling display to let you earn xp while on level 50 - just never let you ding 51, obviously - but a defeat would completely empty your bar/blocks of xp down to the start of L50 again).
And the defeat would only wipe out your full "bonus" when you resurrected at the hospital. You could still have perks for being rezzed by another player or using a self-rez (like in my earlier post) - so for example if you were defeated and used a self-rez you wouldn't lose your bonus, but if you were defeated and used an awaken you'd lose 75% (i.e. three-quarters) of your built-up xp/inf bonus.
Although that would make us level even faster, especially combined with the complete absence of debt, and we already level too fast in some level ranges after xp-smoothing - maybe make the bonus inf-only without an xp component, then.
I think Debt should scale depending on the size of team your in.
I think debt should scale depending on the AT
I also think debt protection for those who do like to RotP, Soul Transfer, take one for the team and resurge should balance so that you can conceptually use it as part of your attack chain but not have progress too slowed.
Those that don't self res conceptually should be playing with needing to survive in mind.
In some way a hero or villain side should care about whether or not a team mate dies be it out of roleplay or the fact that their leveling has slowed rather than the "I am alright Jack" attitudes some have with people eating dust around them.
However downtime is no fun ie tasting floory goodness was no fun and long scenic trips from a hospital to only repeat it again was no fun. Debt worsens the feeling and you could end up grumpy and split from the PuG from hell your in.
I think raise Debt depending on team size and AT, Lower Debt cap for those rough PuGs, and ensure enough debt protection to those that just simply have dying and ressing as part of play to a level that they can keep on progressing (rather than bursts of debt repayment they have a slow steady curve of it).
I certainly think if ya think ya should never have to RotP ya missed the concept.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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IThen when you hit level 50 it could be 10% inf bonus for each block of xp you "earn" while on L50 (they'd have to change the levelling display to let you earn xp while on level 50 - just never let you ding 51, obviously - but a defeat would completely empty your bar/blocks of xp down to the start of L50 again).
[/ QUOTE ]Completely against that solution, because if the devs show the mechanics for gaining blocks of xp above lvl 50, then the next step would be for people to actively push for the lvl limit to be raised to 60. I for one would jump ship quicker than a rat, if the lvl 50 limit was raised.
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what about applying a multiplyer to the debt equal to the number of people on the team. So if you are soloing - you get the base amount of debt as it is now, if your in a team of 8 players - you get 8x the debt - after all you get xp 8 times as quick.
[/ QUOTE ]This seems like the best solution for debt, as it is a nice compromise from ppl asking for higher encrued debt, and others asking for debt to be scrapped. [u]You get my vote on this one!!![u]
Main 50 & Badger Nine Claws Claws/Regen/Body
Other 50's Ph10x Brute Unjust Law Tanker Samantha Urai Scrapper Codename 1250 Scrapper
Cepheus Defender Nilus Scrapper Electro Field Blaster S.PONGE Tanker
For me debt is not enough. Maybe when I started playing it was bothersome, but even then wasn't a great issue and this was of the higher debt, lower xp times. Trying to get your first 50 it was maybe a thorn in your side a bit, and people often got angry with other players if they felt it was their fault that they got it, but once you get to 50 it's no longer a burden and nowadays it is a bit laughable to me. At 50 your attention may go towards getting badges more and debt badges are one of them, so you just go out and kamikaze till you get it.
So no, debt isn't a punishment. What I would like to see, slightly different to games like WoW and the repair costs for equipment usage and damage, is that when we get defeated and sent to the hospital or use awakens, then our powers are degraded slightly each time we lose so we don't damage as much or heal others as well, or perhaps we lose a random power each time. To gain full powers we need to pay money to a scientist instead of the hospital and this is for a serum to bring us back to normal. If we can't afford the serum immediately we can play weakened or maybe the degradation is removed after a couple of hours playing (the more defeats the longer the recovery) or a week offline (now that's a slap in the face).
I think we need to have a penalty that hurts a bit more, No I'm not a masochist but something that will make us aware that getting beaten is more than a slight niggle. It's still not game stopping but I personally would not want to be in the position too often, whether it costs me influence I don't really want to spend, or I'm not taking down a bad guy as quick or efficiently. Not sure if this idea is one others might think is ok or not. If so it could be worth putting into suggestions if it's feasible.
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I think debt should scale depending on the AT
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This could be a bad idea. I'm reminded of experience penalties for certain classes and races in EQ1, and how they marginalised those classes/races and disincentivized players from playing them.
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In some way a hero or villain side should care about whether or not a team mate dies be it out of roleplay or the fact that their leveling has slowed rather than the "I am alright Jack" attitudes some have with people eating dust around them.
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Agreed, but I think enforcing this by means of gameplay measures is a massive massive mistake. In fact I have proof of that theory failing in practice. In early EverQuest 2 when a team member died, their debt was shared amongst the entire team. The Dev team thought this would encourage teamwork, ensuring that teammates stayed together and protected each other. In beta with a close-knit community this worked pretty well.
What actually happened in release was that players who were prone to dying a lot (for whatever reason) started to become infamous so they started getting black-listed from groups. Also when some people decided they were quitting the game or deleting a character they would get a group together (often with themselves as leader) and die several times in quick succession to grief the group with debt.
Over time players became more and more reluctant to do PuGs outside of their comfort zone of people they knew they could count on not to die stupidly and penalise everyone. Eventually the Devs removed shared debt as they surmised it was counter-productive to teaming (and back then EQ2 was mainly about teaming, not soloing like I hear it is now) and was damaging the community.
So you cant really force players to care about their teammates and I think thats a good thing, because its one of the things I use to work out whether someone is a good team player. If it was enforced then you could never be sure.
I'm going to go wildly against the prevailing viewpoint here and say that the debt system now is far better.
Why? It all boils down to one thing. Debt as a system punishes the new, inexperienced player, while leaving the long term, experienced player untouched.
Just because most of the people on this board (predominantly people whove been here for a good while, and hence rather good at the game) can avoid most debt, it does not mean that Johnny Newbie will be able to.
Under the old debt system, Johnny Newbie could build up massive, massive amounts of debt, and then get stuck in it. This slowed his levelling considerably, and frankly made the whole thing a bit of a chore. And, because games, by their very nature should not be chores, a fair chunk of those Johnny Newbies said bugger this for a game of soldiers, and upped and left.
Under the new system, even an inexperienced player like Johnny Newbie would find it very hard to actually permanently be in debt. Even after a few deaths in a row, the end of the debt tunnel will still be in sight. So Johnny Newbie has an incentive to keep playing because, after all, it is only debt, and he can see that debt goes away quickly anyway. Johnny Newbie doesn't leave and eventually becomes Johnny Veteran. Then, due to the inherently ironic and cyclical nature of the universe, the new Johnny Veteran will complain that debt is too low to have any meaning.
Johnny Newbie is the customer that is important to the growth of this game. Hes the one who will justify NCSofts increased investment, and convince them to continue it. The more Johnny Newbies who stay on to become Johnny Veterans, the more theyll invest. The more they invest, the more shiny things for me.
tl;dr version:
Less debt = new players more likely to hang around
More players hanging around = more money for NCSoft
More money for NCSoft = More incentive to keep investing in the game
More investing in game = more shiny things for me
Dead Calm's Defender Manifesto
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IThen when you hit level 50 it could be 10% inf bonus for each block of xp you "earn" while on L50 (they'd have to change the levelling display to let you earn xp while on level 50 - just never let you ding 51, obviously - but a defeat would completely empty your bar/blocks of xp down to the start of L50 again).
[/ QUOTE ]Completely against that solution, because if the devs show the mechanics for gaining blocks of xp above lvl 50, then the next step would be for people to actively push for the lvl limit to be raised to 60. I for one would jump ship quicker than a rat, if the lvl 50 limit was raised.
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Maybe, maybe not. I guess it could be displayed in a different way then. Taking that minor part out of context to make a personal point doesn't completely invalidate everything else I suggested, does it?
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when we get defeated and sent to the hospital or use awakens, then our powers are degraded slightly each time we lose so we don't damage as much or heal others as well, or perhaps we lose a random power each time.
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I've played under systems that weaken you after you die and they tend to cause other problems. If the weakening effects degrade with time then you'd just see players logging out their characters and not playing them again until the debuff had cleared - this could break up regular groups.
Also players that couldn't afford the serum and died a lot might get so weakened that their character couldn't perform effectively enough anymore to ever get clear of debuff - this is the kind of thing that will get players deleting characters or cancelling subscriptions, i.e. something the Devs would not want to implement.
Also the serum cost would have to be pretty high for most people to care about it - and then death would still be meaningless for those with tons of inf. Tbh that's why I suggested hitting players on inf-earning (with inf debt to pay off) rather than hitting them in their existing inf total. Think about farmers, for instance - they would easily have the inf kicking around to pay fines, but hitting them in the pocket on their future inf earning with a scaling penalty is going to hurt more and make them more careful.
Ever since I came back, this game has felt like a neverending double xp weekend. There really has to be something done imho. You kick three mobs, fall off a buidling and gratz you're 50. The actual upcoming double xp weekend is going to be mental.
I think the debt should stay as it is now until you hit level 20 then ramp it up. This way you don't put the new players off and they get a chance to learn the game.
That's my 2 inf worth 
Happy to be on Defiant.
Global name @mereman
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I think the debt should stay as it is now until you hit level 20 then ramp it up. This way you don't put the new players off and they get a chance to learn the game.
That's my 2 inf worth
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Nah... What they should REALLY do is keep debt as it is, but as soon as you get the first debt badge, it reformats your hard drive, plays The Loser Song, then reboots your PC.
Now THAT'S a penalty!
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
As long as there are Debt badges, there will always be a need to gain/work off debt, no matter how small the penalty and how quick it is to work off!
Ahh i miss the days of Hamidon Raid Fridays, The easiest way iv ever gained the last few debt badges!
Make debt huge, but have none incurred by an on-map resurrection or personal resurrection power, only if you go to the hospital.
That way, I get to hear people crying about how hard life is with a Blaster and lamenting the unfairness of it all when they don't have any Awakens in their tray. >
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