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So, my question is... is it fair or reasonable to expect someone to spend 23 endurance, 20 seconds to cycle, on an AoE that doesn't even do the amount of damage that Air Sup does? Because to me that feels exorbitantly out of whack.
[/ QUOTE ]Considering that this attack has the potential (Being a ranged AoE) to do up to 16 times that damage in total, I'd say it's, if not reasonable, at least close to it. And this is not taking into account the fact that it's psi damage, and has a knockup effect. I wouldn't go cutting the recharge (since that would be increasing the damage output), but some sort of endurance reduction to psi tornado might be good.
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I wouldn't go cutting the recharge (since that would be increasing the damage output), but some sort of endurance reduction to psi tornado might be good.
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My thoughts exactly. By that token though the other AoEs should probably also get an endurance discount based on how hard their base damage was hit.
Augury I really agree that these changes need re-thought I posted a foresight in the other thread in the training room so wont repeat it here but any choice made based on statistics (especially from only one community) is a badly made choice as this will lead to further nerfings until all PLers (and casual players) are chased from the game. 
Sapphire Maiden lvl 50 Eng/Eng/Flame Blaster
Misstrix lvl 50 Fire/Rad/Ice Controller
Foundations Claw lvl 50 Fire/Fire/Flame Tank
Lord Viscera lvl 36 Necro/Dark MM/Flame Mastery
Kestrell lvl 50 Rad/Kin/Soul Corr
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I wouldn't go cutting the recharge (since that would be increasing the damage output), but some sort of endurance reduction to psi tornado might be good.
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My thoughts exactly. By that token though the other AoEs should probably also get an endurance discount based on how hard their base damage was hit.
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All APP/PPP-Powers have endurance and recharge penalties compared to same powers in primary/secondary pools.
It's part of the design and unlikely to change.
And i don't know if your PsyTornado example is actually true:
- HeroBuilder just copy/pasted the BI-number from the defender power without testing
- BI-system is broken for defenders (different Melee/Ranged Damage-modifiers)
Looking at the PPPs in villains then the davs would expect that endurance cost would be fair for the damage. I'd rather they'd fix the PPPs than break the epics, but for balance they'd have to do one or the other
"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"
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I know, I played a grav/storms, and she was awesome, but couldn't kill a damn thing.
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Pretty unlikely altho the combo is definitely not a damage build.Its a heavy control build and in fact prolly second most heavy control build after earth/storm
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If controllers are supposed to be a support AT they should unnerf AoE control.
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Because?You have problem performing aoe control? I play an earth/storm specced totally out of damage and there is no problem what so ever controlling large amounts of mobs.I dont see when controllers stopped being support AT's and became primary damage.
Fire/* set in trollers was way overpowered atm and the nerfs were inevitable given the upcoming inventions system which will open a whole new build direction and selection
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Fire/* set in trollers was way overpowered atm and the nerfs were inevitable given the upcoming inventions system which will open a whole new build direction and selection
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...but what theyve ended up doing instead is nerfing basically all the other sets/combos and causing a minor inconveneance to fire/?s.
Just to illustrate: My fire/kin and fire/rad will still keep the fire APP but I probably won't even go near the attacks with my other trollers. I will get better mileage from lift than power blast on my grav/emp for example....lift for christs sake!! 
SingStar:
"Extremists LOVE to fish to get us annoyed so we break the forum rules."
CRACK68:
"The origin of life wasn't planned either, should all life be declared a bug and wiped out?"
Lionsbane:
"You know me.Ever the realist"
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All APP/PPP-Powers have endurance and recharge penalties compared to same powers in primary/secondary pools.
It's part of the design and unlikely to change.
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No. Controllers APPs haven't any recharge penalties compared to same powers in primary/secondary pools. Every power in the Controllers APPs have the same recharge as the corresponding power in any primary/secondary. Check your facts, stop spreading this lie.
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All APP/PPP-Powers have endurance and recharge penalties compared to same powers in primary/secondary pools.
It's part of the design and unlikely to change.
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No. Controllers APPs haven't any recharge penalties compared to same powers in primary/secondary pools. Every power in the Controllers APPs have the same recharge as the corresponding power in any primary/secondary. Check your facts, stop spreading this lie.
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The NoFuture database lists them as:
Controller Fire Ball: Recharge = 32 secs.
Blaster Fire Ball: Recharge = 16 secs.
Controller Fire Blast: Recharge = 8 secs.
Blaster Fire Blast: Recharge = 4 secs.
Controller Mental Blast: Recharge = 8 secs.
Defender Mental Blast: Recharge = 4 secs.
Controller Hurl Boulder: Recharge = 10 secs.
Tanker Hurl Boulder: Recharge = 8 secs.
which is consistent with this quote from Castle.
CoX 50s: <ill/rad> <ice/ice> <fire/kin> <grav/sonic> <ice/storm> <earth/kin> <kin/elec> <cold/psy> <thugs/dark> <fire/dark> <dark/elec> <night widow> <EM/ninj> <mind/icy>
Indeed. I can't figure out the current Damage Scalars on the two fireballs but the Epics are rated way higher than standard Fireball there too which is weird, and might explain the change.
The Controller hold lasts about 50% longer than the blasters too, does a Blasters Fireball currently do 50% more damage than a Contained Epic fireball?
Controller APP attacks had their damage scales doubled and are now brought down to the same damage scale as the equivalent blaster/defender attacks.
Ice Storm is an exception,its DS was never doubled because it uses the pet modifier and not the AT modifiers.
By getting containment bonus it will be an excellent AoE attack for controllers after the patch.
Well then, we are several weeks on from nerf day on live, we have all had a chance to play with our characters, what do we all think of the changes?
My experiences are that I can still solo, more slowly than before. I can't afford to make any mistakes at all, and it is hit and miss if I can take down a larger than average mob before they pop out of mez. Ok if they are only going to fire machine guns at me but it they have mez powers normally means doom. I die a lot more than I did before, this has been somewhat mitigated by the winter self res temp power, I am going to be annoyed with it when I have to keep coming back from the hospital all the time.
Endurance is now an enormous problem, once you factor in getting the debuffs up, running a shield and then firing the AoE hold/immob I have found myself with a couple of foes still to defeat and no end left. I have to wait between each mob for a recharge now. And I am unwilling to use EMP anymore as I can't recover from the drop in end.
All in all the nerfs don't work for me, it has made playing my character less fun and I have sent my petition saying so. Anyone else have any thoughts?
Yeah, i have a thought.
I dont go to pvp zone anymore because dmg capability is now totally helpless while control capability is not that great (old nerf...we already have it).
People want me just to shout bubble (im /ff), and that's not fun.
What can i say... pvp was already umbalanced, now its no more because only scrappers brutes an stalkers go there, cause other ATS totally sucks compareted to them.
..And about PvE and epics power...what can i say...
i've totally dropped my epic powers and i've got things like AS or powers i use to skip from my pools powers.
Well, playing with my Grav/Rad after the changes, I must say I'm delighted - I can solo incredibly well now that I've switched from //Fire to //Primal. Conserve power allows me to keep going well after I've fired an EMP. I've slotted my immobs and pet for Damage, and the rate I'm grinding through mobs is quite fast.
In teams I don't draw as much aggro to myself, which allows me to control things better. All while doing damage, naturally - but Damage over Time is much more subtle to the aggro count than quick burst damage.
So, all in all, it's a win-win situation. Thank you devs for these sensible changes, which have actually made the AT more fun to play.
Only sad thing is that you can't teleport enemy auto turrets any more...
[b][color=blue]Coldest War /[color=red]/ Omega Patient[/b]
[url="http://www.the-cow.net/"][color=red]The CoW Network (Blog) /[/url][url="http://www.collegeofwar.com/"][color=blue]/ College of War[/url]
Not to throw a stick in the works there alvan, but you could have had primal forces before and had the same benefit ... there was no need for the epics to be nerfed for you to have done that, so it's not really a valid plus.
Although it is interesting that you comment that it has caused you to do a respec to carry on playing your character.
Original plan was to respec to //Primal at 47, to get Power Boost, but because of the changes, it became a valid option to rid of //Fire, as it was no longer ridiculously powerful, at a lower level.
edit: I think one of the biggest indications of that there was something wrong with //Fire was the fact that when advised what APP to pick, the advise always was "Take //Fire until you get to 47 and then respec to whatever pool you really want to take."
Sure. I could have taken //Primal before and get the same benefit, but that benefit was not in line with the benefit gained from //Fire's level 41 power. It would have been relatively stupid taking //Primal then, when you had a broken, overpowered AoE weapon of Mass Destruction as a valid option.
[b][color=blue]Coldest War /[color=red]/ Omega Patient[/b]
[url="http://www.the-cow.net/"][color=red]The CoW Network (Blog) /[/url][url="http://www.collegeofwar.com/"][color=blue]/ College of War[/url]
Can still solo...and still with ease...just takes longer.
/kins and /rads are still fine but almost everything else are pure support now
As Dawn said there's next to no reason to use trollers in PvP anymore apart from pure support....apart from maybe the aforementioned /rads.
The nerf was incoming...but still believe this was a very poor way of implementing it and I strongly oppose it.
My trollers are now (for the most part) back to precontainment damage days and with half the controls and I feel neutered in PvP....not at all happy.
They sought to nerf fire/kins....instead they've achieved to give them the evil eye and kicked basically every other combo in the nuts....apart from the "trollers are an only support AT" sayers.
SingStar:
"Extremists LOVE to fish to get us annoyed so we break the forum rules."
CRACK68:
"The origin of life wasn't planned either, should all life be declared a bug and wiped out?"
Lionsbane:
"You know me.Ever the realist"
My fire/kin's better than ever, now I've switched to the earth epic. Don't rely on it so much for damage, I have hot feet, ring of fire, and imps for that, but It gives me a great AoE disorient 
Also, I went creative with it and also took fighting to go with the Defensive epic (With it's +def and its +maxhp).
Better than ever! And just an FYI people, Ice storm was not nerfed IIRC, and should still be awesome.
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Better than ever! And just an FYI people, Ice storm was not nerfed IIRC, and should still be awesome.
[/ QUOTE ]It's a pet, so it shouldn't be affected by containment.
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Better than ever! And just an FYI people, Ice storm was not nerfed IIRC, and should still be awesome.
[/ QUOTE ]It's a pet, so it shouldn't be affected by containment.
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Wrong. From the patch notes:
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Ice Mastery/Ice Storm: Removed unresistible PvP damage and added Containment.
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CoX 50s: <ill/rad> <ice/ice> <fire/kin> <grav/sonic> <ice/storm> <earth/kin> <kin/elec> <cold/psy> <thugs/dark> <fire/dark> <dark/elec> <night widow> <EM/ninj> <mind/icy>
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Better than ever! And just an FYI people, Ice storm was not nerfed IIRC, and should still be awesome.
[/ QUOTE ]It's a pet, so it shouldn't be affected by containment.
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Wrong. From the patch notes:
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Ice Mastery/Ice Storm: Removed unresistible PvP damage and added Containment.
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[/ QUOTE ]Oooh, when was that?
Same patch notes as the nerfs 
So when they got nerfed, Ice storm just got double damage. Played around with it, it's awesome, but I still prefer good ol' fissure. Knockup/Disorients ftw 
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All APP/PPP-Powers have endurance and recharge penalties compared to same powers in primary/secondary pools.
It's part of the design and unlikely to change.
[/ QUOTE ]
No. Controllers APPs haven't any recharge penalties compared to same powers in primary/secondary pools. Every power in the Controllers APPs have the same recharge as the corresponding power in any primary/secondary. Check your facts, stop spreading this lie.
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The NoFuture database lists them as:
Controller Fire Ball: Recharge = 32 secs.
Blaster Fire Ball: Recharge = 16 secs.
Controller Fire Blast: Recharge = 8 secs.
Blaster Fire Blast: Recharge = 4 secs.
Controller Mental Blast: Recharge = 8 secs.
Defender Mental Blast: Recharge = 4 secs.
Controller Hurl Boulder: Recharge = 10 secs.
Tanker Hurl Boulder: Recharge = 8 secs.
which is consistent with this quote from Castle.
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So according to that, trollers blasts have twice the recharge of that of the blasters, and blasters holds have the same recharge the troller's one have (and the same mag I must add).
Yet it's trollers the only ones nerfed... yeah right, quite logical... pfft
Same MAG? impossible -.-
Well, me, I would like to talk shop for a second with the more number inclined here, since in the other thread it's been mostly overlooked. Why? Because while we're obviously not going to come to any kind of agreement here on the debate of if it's a warranted change or not, crippling or not, or a fix to something that wasn't the problem or not, we can still review how we'll all feel about it afterwards.
Sorry guys, numbers need to add up.
After these changes, does anyone feel the numbers still add up properly on the controller EPP AoE attacks? Because I don't think I want to take the one I had planned for my latest controller, Idunn, anymore. Now I'm not asking people who don't care about effectiveness as long as it's fun.
Psionic Tornado: 23 endurance cost. 2.43 BI attack (halved from 4.86). Now, no need to hem and haw about what AT ranged modifier they're on, because BI is relative to the ATs brawl damage.
2.43 BI is about an "in between" amount of base damage relative to power pool attacks. Kick is a bit lower, boxing a little more. Air Superiority is better, and Flurry is definately better damage. Single target, but still, to give you folks an idea.
Now, I have AS, boxing AND flurry on my controller. Flurry with assault and siphon power is almost good enough to be a nice solid chunk of damage. AS is reasonable but it'd take you plenty of time to AS one mob to death. Boxing is just so the woeful brawl which isn't affected by containment doesn't enter my attack chain.
This is a reasonably solid chain, equivalent to a bunch of varying strength scrapper first powers, basically, when contained.
So, my question is... is it fair or reasonable to expect someone to spend 23 endurance, 20 seconds to cycle, on an AoE that doesn't even do the amount of damage that Air Sup does? Because to me that feels exorbitantly out of whack.
Of course, Psionic Tornado is the worst example of the bunch, but that doesn't make it any less valid. Consider also that to do the same kind of damage with it now you must have containment up, which means at the least an AoE immob of 15 endurance or so.
Now I know, sometimes, maybe even a lot of times you will have containment up, and hell with these changes I wouldn't recommend using Psi Tornado if you didn't already have containment up anyway.
What does this mean? To me? If I take this power I lose another power that I could 6 slot for far greater effectiveness, and gain a power that cycles slowly for rather unimpressive AoE damage even with containment, with an absolutely dismal damage per endurance ratio.
It's further reduced in use because if you do take it, and you do use it, it's a lot better to only use it if containment is up anyhow because the situation demanded it, so you don't have to pay an extra 15 endurance to get the damage you did before without containment. This makes it more situational and less useful.
All discussion of wether the EPP AoE attacks needed to be cut in half aside, even if they should be the above should, IMHO, illustrate that the currently proposed solution is far too inelegant and not only reduces the power in damage, but makes it too expensive to warrant using, makes it more situational to use, and will inevitably result in people just getting something with more bang for their buck.
(ironically fire ball with its lowest reduction and relatively lower endurance cost is least affected by these issues so fire/kin/fire actually takes the smallest hit)
EDIT: Heck forgot another very important point. Reduced damage means that you're actually paying more endurance and time to get the same result. Of course, wether you should try to attain the same results as before is debatable, but the rest of the evidence above stands and is far more solid as a basis against the un-nuancated proposed change as it stands.