[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They will still give "a bit more damage", it's not like it's all taken away.. Fireball with Containment will still equal Blaster Fireball in damage.
Blaster epics don't turn them into tankers or controllers either, although they include control powers and shields.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't see why Controllers can't have a lv 2 Blaster power when Blasters get lv 2 controller powers and Tier 9 Tanker powers. I can still kill a boss faster than any troller on my blaster and I can clear an 8 man spawn faster than any Fire/Kin on my blaster.
[/ QUOTE ]
Nobody is taking away the Fireball. The control powers in Blaster epics are on Blaster mez scale, not controller mez scale. Your argument would work if blasters got a ST hold that had the same duration as controller holds, doubled if they shot at the target first with a tier 1 blast.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They will still give "a bit more damage", it's not like it's all taken away.. Fireball with Containment will still equal Blaster Fireball in damage.
Blaster epics don't turn them into tankers or controllers either, although they include control powers and shields.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't see why Controllers can't have a lv 2 Blaster power when Blasters get lv 2 controller powers and Tier 9 Tanker powers. I can still kill a boss faster than any troller on my blaster and I can clear an 8 man spawn faster than any Fire/Kin on my blaster.
[/ QUOTE ]
Nobody is taking away the Fireball. The control powers in Blaster epics are on Blaster mez scale, not controller mez scale. Your argument would work if blasters got a ST hold that had the same duration as controller holds, doubled if they shot at the target first with a tier 1 blast.
[/ QUOTE ]
Controllers ranged damage modifier is already lower than that of a Blaster, same way a Blaster gets lower duration from hold compared to a troller, so an extra reduction to that damage was not needed. The blasts also have a higher end drain( which is waaay too high now, considering the damage done )compared to the Blaster version, which is already significant.
Also Controllers don't get things like Aim and Build up, which is what really sets Blasters apart as the main damage dealer.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They will still give "a bit more damage", it's not like it's all taken away.. Fireball with Containment will still equal Blaster Fireball in damage.
Blaster epics don't turn them into tankers or controllers either, although they include control powers and shields.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't see why Controllers can't have a lv 2 Blaster power when Blasters get lv 2 controller powers and Tier 9 Tanker powers. I can still kill a boss faster than any troller on my blaster and I can clear an 8 man spawn faster than any Fire/Kin on my blaster.
[/ QUOTE ]
Nobody is taking away the Fireball. The control powers in Blaster epics are on Blaster mez scale, not controller mez scale. Your argument would work if blasters got a ST hold that had the same duration as controller holds, doubled if they shot at the target first with a tier 1 blast.
[/ QUOTE ]
Controllers ranged damage modifier is already lower than that of a Blaster, same way a Blaster gets lower duration from hold compared to a troller, so an extra reduction to that damage was not needed. The blasts also have a higher end drain( which is waaay too high now, considering the damage done )compared to the Blaster version, which is already significant.
Also Controllers don't get things like Aim and Build up, which is what really sets Blasters apart as the main damage dealer.
[/ QUOTE ]
And Defiance helping to deal potentially 300% (was it? max value..) buffed damage?
Chiefette
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They will still give "a bit more damage", it's not like it's all taken away.. Fireball with Containment will still equal Blaster Fireball in damage.
Blaster epics don't turn them into tankers or controllers either, although they include control powers and shields.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't see why Controllers can't have a lv 2 Blaster power when Blasters get lv 2 controller powers and Tier 9 Tanker powers. I can still kill a boss faster than any troller on my blaster and I can clear an 8 man spawn faster than any Fire/Kin on my blaster.
[/ QUOTE ]
Nobody is taking away the Fireball. The control powers in Blaster epics are on Blaster mez scale, not controller mez scale. Your argument would work if blasters got a ST hold that had the same duration as controller holds, doubled if they shot at the target first with a tier 1 blast.
[/ QUOTE ]
Controllers ranged damage modifier is already lower than that of a Blaster, same way a Blaster gets lower duration from hold compared to a troller, so an extra reduction to that damage was not needed. The blasts also have a higher end drain( which is waaay too high now, considering the damage done )compared to the Blaster version, which is already significant.
Also Controllers don't get things like Aim and Build up, which is what really sets Blasters apart as the main damage dealer.
[/ QUOTE ]
And Defiance helping to deal potentially 300% (was it? max value..) buffed damage?
Chiefette
[/ QUOTE ]
500%, full Defiance should get you to the damage cap. Controller's cap is 400% I think, but with containment they get double that, which is what the real problem is here.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They will still give "a bit more damage", it's not like it's all taken away.. Fireball with Containment will still equal Blaster Fireball in damage.
Blaster epics don't turn them into tankers or controllers either, although they include control powers and shields.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't see why Controllers can't have a lv 2 Blaster power when Blasters get lv 2 controller powers and Tier 9 Tanker powers. I can still kill a boss faster than any troller on my blaster and I can clear an 8 man spawn faster than any Fire/Kin on my blaster.
[/ QUOTE ]
Nobody is taking away the Fireball. The control powers in Blaster epics are on Blaster mez scale, not controller mez scale. Your argument would work if blasters got a ST hold that had the same duration as controller holds, doubled if they shot at the target first with a tier 1 blast.
[/ QUOTE ]
Controllers ranged damage modifier is already lower than that of a Blaster, same way a Blaster gets lower duration from hold compared to a troller, so an extra reduction to that damage was not needed. The blasts also have a higher end drain( which is waaay too high now, considering the damage done )compared to the Blaster version, which is already significant.
Also Controllers don't get things like Aim and Build up, which is what really sets Blasters apart as the main damage dealer.
[/ QUOTE ]
And Defiance helping to deal potentially 300% (was it? max value..) buffed damage?
Chiefette
[/ QUOTE ]
500%, full Defiance should get you to the damage cap. Controller's cap is 400% I think, but with containment they get double that, which is what the real problem is here.
[/ QUOTE ]
But only if they have fulcrum shift, and fulcrum shift as a power breaks the ED/Post-I5 paradigm more than any other power in the game.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They will still give "a bit more damage", it's not like it's all taken away.. Fireball with Containment will still equal Blaster Fireball in damage.
Blaster epics don't turn them into tankers or controllers either, although they include control powers and shields.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't see why Controllers can't have a lv 2 Blaster power when Blasters get lv 2 controller powers and Tier 9 Tanker powers. I can still kill a boss faster than any troller on my blaster and I can clear an 8 man spawn faster than any Fire/Kin on my blaster.
[/ QUOTE ]
Nobody is taking away the Fireball. The control powers in Blaster epics are on Blaster mez scale, not controller mez scale. Your argument would work if blasters got a ST hold that had the same duration as controller holds, doubled if they shot at the target first with a tier 1 blast.
[/ QUOTE ]
Controllers ranged damage modifier is already lower than that of a Blaster, same way a Blaster gets lower duration from hold compared to a troller, so an extra reduction to that damage was not needed. The blasts also have a higher end drain( which is waaay too high now, considering the damage done )compared to the Blaster version, which is already significant.
Also Controllers don't get things like Aim and Build up, which is what really sets Blasters apart as the main damage dealer.
[/ QUOTE ]
And Defiance helping to deal potentially 300% (was it? max value..) buffed damage?
Chiefette
[/ QUOTE ]
500%, full Defiance should get you to the damage cap. Controller's cap is 400% I think, but with containment they get double that, which is what the real problem is here.
[/ QUOTE ]
But only if they have fulcrum shift, and fulcrum shift as a power breaks the ED/Post-I5 paradigm more than any other power in the game.
[/ QUOTE ]
On Fire/Kin controllers with Epic AoE blasts, yeah it does. On anything else, not really
Well, I was on test a sec ago, and My fire/kin doesn't feel nerfed. I see the reduction, but I'm not fustrated, I wasn't impressed with the AoE blast much anyhow (Didnt have the ST one). Before, It was great, but now I may take an epic more for *Sigh* utility.
[ QUOTE ]
Also, Psionic tornado does get containment damage. Nobody would pick it if it didn't.
[/ QUOTE ]
I had it pre containment, slotted for recharge + knockback 
Synaesthetix:if your mum wasn't already dead I would go kill her for bringing
you into the world
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They will still give "a bit more damage", it's not like it's all taken away.. Fireball with Containment will still equal Blaster Fireball in damage.
Blaster epics don't turn them into tankers or controllers either, although they include control powers and shields.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't see why Controllers can't have a lv 2 Blaster power when Blasters get lv 2 controller powers and Tier 9 Tanker powers. I can still kill a boss faster than any troller on my blaster and I can clear an 8 man spawn faster than any Fire/Kin on my blaster.
[/ QUOTE ]
Nobody is taking away the Fireball. The control powers in Blaster epics are on Blaster mez scale, not controller mez scale. Your argument would work if blasters got a ST hold that had the same duration as controller holds, doubled if they shot at the target first with a tier 1 blast.
[/ QUOTE ]
Controllers ranged damage modifier is already lower than that of a Blaster, same way a Blaster gets lower duration from hold compared to a troller, so an extra reduction to that damage was not needed. The blasts also have a higher end drain( which is waaay too high now, considering the damage done )compared to the Blaster version, which is already significant.
[/ QUOTE ]
No. the epic Fireball isn't 0.55* Blaster fireball. If it were, there wouldn't be any need for this nerf. It's Fireball that has it damage scalar set (much) higher than normal Fireball, so that despite the 0.55 damage scale it does roughly equivalent amount of actual damage the Blaster fireball does. Factor in Containment, and it does twice the damage of Blaster Fireball.
I agree that endurance costs per damage need looking at, but that's true across the board really.
[ QUOTE ]
Also Controllers don't get things like Aim and Build up, which is what really sets Blasters apart as the main damage dealer.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hey, if we start going down that road, Blasters don't get Fulcrum Shift either. But I'd really rather not bring /Kin into this.
If the problem is AoE blasts, why nerf ST ones too? That cripples trollers for pvp too, not only for pve
[ QUOTE ]
And Defiance helping to deal potentially 300% (was it? max value..) buffed damage?
Chiefette
[/ QUOTE ]
Know what usually stops Defiance being any good whatsoever? Being Held 
So now Controllers do less damage than Blasters? Can't see that's a major problem...
[ QUOTE ]
No. the epic Fireball isn't 0.55* Blaster fireball. If it were, there wouldn't be any need for this nerf. It's Fireball that has it damage scalar set (much) higher than normal Fireball, so that despite the 0.55 damage scale it does roughly equivalent amount of actual damage the Blaster fireball does. Factor in Containment, and it does twice the damage of Blaster Fireball.
[/ QUOTE ]
So what?? This does not mean that those blasts should be nerfed. Blasters can do +160% of their damage with aim and build up. More if you count Defiance. So using Powers available to them, Blasters can still greatly outdamage controllers, by a very wide margin, counting all the damage attacks they have. One blast or two blasts in an Epic set does not change this, but it does help Controllers solo better.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also Controllers don't get things like Aim and Build up, which is what really sets Blasters apart as the main damage dealer.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hey, if we start going down that road, Blasters don't get Fulcrum Shift either. But I'd really rather not bring /Kin into this.
[/ QUOTE ]
Please do, because I'm pretty sure not every troller gets Fulcrum Shift and /Kin is the real issue here. Fire/Kin is the nr 1 troller in the US and probably the most popular toon being leveled in the US at this moment.
Literally 70% of the toons running around PI will be Fire/Kin. The datamining the devs have done will show a heavily skewed result because of this. The controller AT is not outperforming, it's certain specialized combinations of powersets that are. Rather than fixing that, they just do a generally sweeping nerf on the Epic powers, that completely misses their intended target, but does manage to gimp other people in it's wake. I'm not a damage machine on my Mind/FF, or my Grav/Rad. I don't consider being able to kill an even level minion at lv 50 with one attack chain to be overpowered.
Of course, you're absolutely right Mesmer.
There's a far bigger powerleveling contingent in the US, and they obviously use the maxed possible sets. Those sets are unrepresentative of the archetypes as a whole and skew the data that the devs collect.
I don't know whether the devs actually play the game much. I suspect they don't play it outside of testing. The reason I think that is because they respond to issues they've picked up with data mining not by performing precision fixes, but by slapping in extremely heavy-handed nerfs across the board. They see that controllers are doing way too much damage (from fire/kin/fire), and instead of nerfing that particular power set (perhaps making the AoE epics not use containment, perhaps by limiting FS on controllers), they hit every single controller build with a hefty nerf.
Some of the reasons they've given don't make any sense. They're calling this a fix to an overseen problem, but this was flagged up very strongly by the players on the test servers in the US the moment that they added containment to the epics (which they did after testing containment on its own - making it unlikely that this was simply overlooked). Personally I think that there'll be several more sweeping nerfs like this in future issues, as part of a new 'balance vision' now we have Positron and not Statesman as the lead developer for the game.
I was going to choose Psi epic for concept reasons, but with the incredibly heavy nerfs to that particular set I don't know if I'll bother with anything other than the mez protection and the shield. Some of the pool powers are going to be more effective for damage now. Psionic Tornado, now at 0.175? I want to defeat my foes, not gently blow on their faces.
The issue isn't controllers outdamaging blasters (although that does happen with fire/kin/fire), it's controllers at high levels outdamaging ATs with damage secondaries, in greater safety. Who does more damage, ice/emp/fire or emp/elec/power? Who's safer?
Safer?? emp/elec without any doubt! It doesn't have mad imps aggroing the whole place around!
[ QUOTE ]
The issue isn't controllers outdamaging blasters (although that does happen with fire/kin/fire), it's controllers at high levels outdamaging ATs with damage secondaries, in greater safety. Who does more damage, ice/emp/fire or emp/elec/power? Who's safer?
[/ QUOTE ]
Emp/Elec/Power by far. Power Build up + Thunderous Blast = dead mob. Takes about 5 seconds too. Same goes for Kin/*, Rad/Psi, basically anything with Sonic, Energy or Elec Blast. I agree that some combinations might be lacking(FF/Dark?), but then again, most troller combinations are lacking damage, so I don't see the problem. Again, look at powerset combinations and not AT's in general.
There are lots of powersets combinations that will outperform other powerset combinations from other AT's. That does not mean that one AT is overpowered compared to the other. By that reasoning Tanks need a nerf, because a Fire/Em Tank can easily outdamage most Scrappers with burst damage. Defenders would need a nerf as well, seeing that a Rad/Psi will destroy almost anything in a 1 on 1 PVP match.
Bha...
I play 2 trollers (Grav/kin and ill/ff) and i really dont understand this nerf.
As you said, trollers was supposed to have GREAT control against mobs, better control than other AT atleast. but then (i5?) they nerfed control powers and gave containment. So i thought: oh ok, so im not supposed to have that great control, but im supposed to do GOOD DMG, im a little blaster with good control powers. Now they changed they're mind, again.
What are we supposed to do now? DMG suck (except for Fire set, of course) and control powers are not enough good for every set.. take a look on Mind and illusion sets, they still have a GOOD control, grav set seems a joke in that way..(it has good dmg, but still far from fire set)
Im getting tired of this, all these nerf have totally changed some AT
I haven't played the 40+ game in CoH so I am not really qualified to comment on this particular nerf. I am a little concerned with the way these nerfs have been handled. There was no mention of them whatsoever, they managed to say a freespec would be coming after I8 due to some fire blaster changes.
[ QUOTE ]
I was going to choose Psi epic for concept reasons, but with the incredibly heavy nerfs to that particular set I don't know if I'll bother with anything other than the mez protection and the shield. Some of the pool powers are going to be more effective for damage now. Psionic Tornado, now at 0.175? I want to defeat my foes, not gently blow on their faces.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is what most villains face with picking their Patorns. I wonder how many people take all four?
[ QUOTE ]
No. the epic Fireball isn't 0.55* Blaster fireball. If it were, there wouldn't be any need for this nerf. It's Fireball that has it damage scalar set (much) higher than normal Fireball, so that despite the 0.55 damage scale it does roughly equivalent amount of actual damage the Blaster fireball does. Factor in Containment, and it does twice the damage of Blaster Fireball.
[/ QUOTE ]
Controller Fireball has double the recharge of the blaster one. Also, not every controller is able to set up containment each time it's available. As Ill/FF I am able to outdamage a non-Aim/Build Up/Defiance using blaster with one attack every 1.5-2 minutes depending on hasten. Hardy overpowered.
Octavian Vanguard
@ohmsEU and @ohms 2
Badging character: Bimble on the Union server, Badgehunter.com and City Info Tracker.
[ QUOTE ]
I haven't played the 40+ game in CoH so I am not really qualified to comment on this particular nerf. I am a little concerned with the way these nerfs have been handled. There was no mention of them whatsoever, they managed to say a freespec would be coming after I8 due to some fire blaster changes.
[ QUOTE ]
I was going to choose Psi epic for concept reasons, but with the incredibly heavy nerfs to that particular set I don't know if I'll bother with anything other than the mez protection and the shield. Some of the pool powers are going to be more effective for damage now. Psionic Tornado, now at 0.175? I want to defeat my foes, not gently blow on their faces.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is what most villains face with picking their Patorns. I wonder how many people take all four?
[/ QUOTE ]
If villain PPPs are broken, that doesn't mean you have to break trollers' epics to even things out, don't ya think? 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They will still give "a bit more damage", it's not like it's all taken away.. Fireball with Containment will still equal Blaster Fireball in damage.
Blaster epics don't turn them into tankers or controllers either, although they include control powers and shields.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't see why Controllers can't have a lv 2 Blaster power when Blasters get lv 2 controller powers and Tier 9 Tanker powers. I can still kill a boss faster than any troller on my blaster and I can clear an 8 man spawn faster than any Fire/Kin on my blaster.
[/ QUOTE ]Blasters get ST hold that is much weaker than controller holds, and FoN is affected by blaster resistance cap so it isn't nearly as useful as for tanks.
[ QUOTE ]
And Defiance helping to deal potentially 300% (was it? max value..) buffed damage?
Chiefette
[/ QUOTE ]After L20, defiance is useless 99% of the time.
[ QUOTE ]
Blasters can do +160% of their damage with aim and build up.
[/ QUOTE ]It's 160% only without any other buffs OR enhancements. And not all blasters get aim or BU.
[ QUOTE ]
They see that controllers are doing way too much damage (from fire/kin/fire), and instead of nerfing that particular power set (perhaps making the AoE epics not use containment, perhaps by limiting FS on controllers), they hit every single controller build with a hefty nerf.
[/ QUOTE ]So you're saying making epics ignore containment would've been a much better answer? Doing either that or what they're currently doing would've have had the same result on epic damage on contained targets. And it's hardly every single build, it's merely those who take epic attacks.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
that would nerf Kin defenders though, not just controllers.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, and corruptors. Your point?
[/ QUOTE ]
aww, you're right those guys require a good hard nerfing.