OK returning to the Original point, as this thread has turned into a bit of a whine about villain power sets. Tactics play a large part in any pvp battle, and like it or not a well built Villain team actually has the tactical advantage. So the Heroes have an empath in their team, YOurbrutes dom's and corr's take the attention of the tanks blasters and scrappers, whilst the stalkers (for whom not yapping on b'cast is a good way of not rousing suspicion) can whip around the back and nail the empath, then leg it to a safe distance to let hide kick back in, Now its just a waiting game until CM runs out, however highly stacked it is, it doesnt last that long, if the emp rrezzes and comes back , you can garauntee CM will have pretty much worn off, and the stalkers can strike him again to keep him from re-stacking, and then assist the rest of the team in taking the hard hitters down. As long as your brute isnt a complete wuss this plan will work, especially if the dom's corr's take some of the heat.
And without trying to sound condescending, A large amount of your success can be atuned to how you have built your toon. Ive seen stalkers and brutes get torn apart by a team of well organised blasters, but ive also seen two stalkers take down a tanker and his empath. You wouldnt just rush into battle against +2 enemies in a mission, and you certainly shouldnt do it in pvp. Not to mention a contingency plan will aid you a lot. Never plan for everything going smoothly, always plan for the worst case scenario.
Its too easy to blame other players or the game physics when you are beaten "A good workman always blames his tools" i believe is a good way of looking at it.
So instead of whingieing about how biased the game is (which the majority of people would tend to disagree anyway) plan your characters and your tactics better knowing what you have learned from your experiences thus far. 
Maybe a bad empath but getting an AS on a good empath is extremly difficult. The heals dont root so can be on the move majority of the time.
Heros
Max Powerz: Lv 50 Tanker
Villains
Max Khaos: Lv 50
Overlord of E.V.I.L.
My Brute - http://maxy-khaos.mybrute.com/
LF SG! Arc ID# 193083
Heal other, CM, Fort, Recovery Aura and Adrenalin Boost all root.
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So instead of whingieing about how biased the game is (which the majority of people would tend to disagree anyway) plan your characters and your tactics better knowing what you have learned from your experiences thus far.
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Well having teammates who
- know their stuff in PvP
- can actually work together
- are available
- have the required toons
is easier said than done. I know Im not so good on the second criteria myself no matter how hard I try 
absolutely..
But if it was easy it wouldnt be any fun )
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OK returning to the Original point, as this thread has turned into a bit of a whine about villain power sets. Tactics play a large part in any pvp battle, and like it or not a well built Villain team actually has the tactical advantage. So the Heroes have an empath in their team, YOurbrutes dom's and corr's take the attention of the tanks blasters and scrappers, whilst the stalkers (for whom not yapping on b'cast is a good way of not rousing suspicion) can whip around the back and nail the empath, then leg it to a safe distance to let hide kick back in, Now its just a waiting game until CM runs out, however highly stacked it is, it doesnt last that long, if the emp rrezzes and comes back , you can garauntee CM will have pretty much worn off, and the stalkers can strike him again to keep him from re-stacking, and then assist the rest of the team in taking the hard hitters down. As long as your brute isnt a complete wuss this plan will work, especially if the dom's corr's take some of the heat.
And without trying to sound condescending, A large amount of your success can be atuned to how you have built your toon. Ive seen stalkers and brutes get torn apart by a team of well organised blasters, but ive also seen two stalkers take down a tanker and his empath. You wouldnt just rush into battle against +2 enemies in a mission, and you certainly shouldnt do it in pvp. Not to mention a contingency plan will aid you a lot. Never plan for everything going smoothly, always plan for the worst case scenario.
Its too easy to blame other players or the game physics when you are beaten "A good workman always blames his tools" i believe is a good way of looking at it.
So instead of whingieing about how biased the game is (which the majority of people would tend to disagree anyway) plan your characters and your tactics better knowing what you have learned from your experiences thus far.
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Ive not managed to get any of my US alts to pvp levels yet, as ive been too busy moving house or working on the lvl 40+ hero content with my main char(finaly).
But from what I have seen over here(have not pvp'd for a month properly though) it is all down to tactics, I think hero ATs are much more forgiving for those teams who are not greatly skilled at pvp, with the builds supporting each other nicely.
By comparison the villain teams do need to all be on their game, their ATS are all muce more aggressive and this can lead to villains running off and getting butchered even by the least skilled of pvpers( Me ).
CM does not make that much of a difference from my perspectives, as a stalker I dont really care as even if they can see me they usually cant hit me. And as a blaster most stalkers can walk up to me and kill me no matter what +perception type buffs Ive got running..
Even Doms can eat me up if I have stacked cm, many times Dalron Burner has dropped me from the sky with his attacks even though I am cm'd. And those times he has not been able to kill me have been down to the doms lack of damage (which for an assault AT sucks) or team support on my end.
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At the end of the day perception/stealth needs work.
All these people complaning that Clear Mind is stackable. Does it matter? Most PvP toons have 1 +perception power themselves so CL will let you see anything within a few feet. Once the Stealth/ perception cap is reached thats it. So for stalkers it does not matter for doms on the otherhand they will find it impossible to hold the opposition.
No game like this will ever be truly balanced. Yes CM in my opinion should not stack but i would rather see other things in the game.
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Super Reflexes, Ninjitsu, Ice Armour and Dark Armour and Warshades, and of course, Focused Acc (again something for debate another time). That's not "most PvP toons".
You missed stone armour and devices as well.
Some how I think you missed the point.
If you have +2 perception you can see anything within a small radious 12ft i think. So if you have tactics running and somebody uses clear mind on you 5 times you dont get the benefit of +6 perception more like +2 because of the cap.
So for a stalker the fact that CL is stackable means nothing even if it was not they would still see you. It means more to holds etc than anything else.
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OK returning to the Original point, as this thread has turned into a bit of a whine about villain power sets. Tactics play a large part in any pvp battle, and like it or not a well built Villain team actually has the tactical advantage. So the Heroes have an empath in their team, YOurbrutes dom's and corr's take the attention of the tanks blasters and scrappers, whilst the stalkers (for whom not yapping on b'cast is a good way of not rousing suspicion) can whip around the back and nail the empath, then leg it to a safe distance to let hide kick back in, Now its just a waiting game until CM runs out, however highly stacked it is, it doesnt last that long, if the emp rrezzes and comes back , you can garauntee CM will have pretty much worn off, and the stalkers can strike him again to keep him from re-stacking, and then assist the rest of the team in taking the hard hitters down. As long as your brute isnt a complete wuss this plan will work, especially if the dom's corr's take some of the heat.
And without trying to sound condescending, A large amount of your success can be atuned to how you have built your toon. Ive seen stalkers and brutes get torn apart by a team of well organised blasters, but ive also seen two stalkers take down a tanker and his empath. You wouldnt just rush into battle against +2 enemies in a mission, and you certainly shouldnt do it in pvp. Not to mention a contingency plan will aid you a lot. Never plan for everything going smoothly, always plan for the worst case scenario.
Its too easy to blame other players or the game physics when you are beaten "A good workman always blames his tools" i believe is a good way of looking at it.
So instead of whingieing about how biased the game is (which the majority of people would tend to disagree anyway) plan your characters and your tactics better knowing what you have learned from your experiences thus far.
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OK now lets go back to the real world, fury on brutes is bugged, corrupters are doing the same damage as defenders when they should be doing more, heros get access to better buffs and debuffs and dominators seem so far off the page that nobody knows what to do with them. PPP are underpowered when compared to epics, and you wanna tell experienced players about tactics ??Sure tactics can play a part but it may not have ocurred to you that some ppl posting here have been pvping the villians for over a year and are quite aware of what tactics will and wont work in different team set ups or situations. Villains have the potential to be better than heros at damage but under the current situation they cant hit their damage caps that is why there are no villian alts excelling in pvp. The tool is broke and no tactics are going to be able to fix it, it needs a patch like the one in training room for the fury bug.
Zhaan, Chakyra, Fiorina 161, Aeryn, Polly Nation, Dee Pression, Shazanne, Night Jester and too many more to mention.
Network Hell 47640
Valley of the Harpies 74519
Green and Pleasant Land 75966
Perhaps thats your problem. If youve been pvping fo a year you cant have had much time to actually level your characters in order to pvp build them properly. And i disagree, about your tool is broke statement. The tool aint broke and tactics would help you out. The problem is that villains are essentially offensive, but in the interests of not making them rediculously over powered in pvp so that they win even when rediculously outnumbered makes sense. Not to mention i used to spend a lot of time in sirens/ bloody bay and the VAST majority of the time, it was villains who were winning, one on one and team battles.
This of course raises another question. Is it that there are problems, or is it that whilst people who do well in pvp crack on and keep doing well, whilst those who dont, make thresds on the forums whining about it.
But there IS a problem when the only time the villains can beat the heroes is by sheer numbers.
I agree about your statement that villains have the potential to do huge damage, but it isnt the case. And you cant say that the villain players dont use tactics, when they are also the players that team and use tactics heroside.
For the record, I have 50s on both sides and PvP most days and I also look at my builds.
If the vast majority of the time you pvp, the villains are winning, could you tell me how to get to that alternate reality? As this isnt the case most of the time and this thread amongst others shows it.
As for your last statement about if there is a problem, read the amount of posts on the subject and dont just call people whingers when they a) DO pvp and b) are fully entitled to highlight the problems with the balance.
I also notice, you seem to post from a Heroes point of view and if you are so damn hot at PVP and disagree with the post, then how come you havent got a large VILLAIN PvP team who are known throughout the land because of their awesome power and wonderful tactical skills?
Zhaan, Chakyra, Fiorina 161, Aeryn, Polly Nation, Dee Pression, Shazanne, Night Jester and too many more to mention.
Network Hell 47640
Valley of the Harpies 74519
Green and Pleasant Land 75966
Yep that last post i made, DID sound worse then i meant it to sound. I agree that people should be able to highlight the problems, BUT when the same post is made in different wording repeatedly it gets a bit boring to read. and for the record, I never said i was awesome at pvp, i have sucesses and failures the same as everyone else. as for the alternate reality thing. you should sit in bloody bay or sirens on union for a while and listen to b'cast. Then you will see why i have so little sympathy for villains. as i have said in various othe threads, i love both sides equally but Have admittedly spent more time on heroes recently, but thats only because i enjoy team play and there seems to be a lack of team players about lately.
What i was intending to say was, that highlight problems by all means, and justify them. As is common on a lot of these types of threads though it turns into a b**ching session rather then constructive points. As for the last bit about how comes im not known throughout the land.... yea ok.
There did seem to be a honeymoon period before people got used to dealing with stalkers. Stalkers are still tops in pvp, but most of the other villain AT's are a bit naff. I'd say hero flexibility is an issue before you even get to PPP's. You can make a lot more interesting builds with say a defener or blaster than you can with a corruptor. Corruptor pretty much forces you down the offender route.
My MA IDs:
Fiend Space: 211464
There are less guides around for villains and players have had less time with them then heroes. Has anyone tried putting together a team of ultimate villains for PvP? 
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There are less guides around for villains and players have had less time with them then heroes. Has anyone tried putting together a team of ultimate villains for PvP?
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I personally cant think of an ultimate team of villains that the EU test servers pvp'ers couldn't deal with. Infact I go as far as to say that the best team of villains would struggle against a semi decent team of heroes. But hey that's where the fun is, in the challenge right?
Heros
Max Powerz: Lv 50 Tanker
Villains
Max Khaos: Lv 50
Overlord of E.V.I.L.
My Brute - http://maxy-khaos.mybrute.com/
LF SG! Arc ID# 193083
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I personally cant think of an ultimate team of villains that the EU test servers pvp'ers couldn't deal with. Infact I go as far as to say that the best team of villains would struggle against a semi decent team of heroes.
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I say you're not thinking hard enough, then.
Maybe that's a bit uncharitable on my part; in theory, I think it's quite conceivable that a 'good' villain team could compete against a 'good' hero team. When Filth/Bilharzia was still around (god rest his retired account), LoUD - even as the smallest of small VGs - could hold its own in any zonal PVP. This was back when Dominators were unheard of in PvP, even in PvE, and way before any of the recent buffs; I used to support him on my (non-FF) MM back before Bodyguard was even coded. Hell, even in his absence, the League can still more than hold their own - in RV most recently our 4-man team (1 MM, 1 Corr, 1 Brute, 1 Stalker) destroyed a 5-man hero team (3 'PFF' Blasters [2 /En, 1 /Elec], 1 Troller, 1 Scrapper) even though not all our VG PvPs to any real degree, and those of us who do are rusty as hell. I wasn't keeping score, but neither I as an MM, nor Aphotica/Cel as a Corruptor died once in the 45 minutes in the zone. The potential is definitely there, it seems more an issue that - for whatever reason - there is a dearth of players behind the villain ATs to make it work. I find that most MMs, a year after launch, still completely and utterly suck in both PvE and PvP - on both Union and Defiant; Dominators are getting better, but I've still to see one played as well as Bilharzia.
Sure, there are niggles that need to be ironed out in code, as highlighted earlier by Extremus, amongst others. Thaw needs its anti-mez capabilities bringing in line with CM and Clarity. I'd leave the +Per off it though, personally, and instead give a huge +Per Boost to Forge in the same set; thematically it make more sense, villains need fewer +Per powers in the whole than hero teams do, and it adds a little flavour to the set as opposed to generifying everything to the same standard. At long last, it appears that Fury has been fixed, making Brutes more viable (in general) for anything other than squishie-tagging, although buffed Brutes can be quite sick already.
Edit: Oh yeah, one more thing - the other problem with villain teams in PvP is the perennial favourite, that of Tactics (the skill, as opposed to the power-choice 
). Villains do not play like heroes; in the same vein, trying to PvP like heroes will get you nowhere fast.
@Synaesthetix
"Here, take some more bees with you. You may need them."
Union: FU//LoUD
"that Syn is that that" - Mothers Love
Well im sure opinion would be quite divided on the matter. However I would class zone pvp as a different kettle of fish to arena and so the results will vary to some degree.
The problem(s) I see for the villain team is there hit points. Almost more of them are what I would class as squishy and can be taken out in no time at all by a team of heroes that know what they are doing.
With regards to your team that destroyed a 5 man hero team, I can believe that. I have done the same with a small corrupter team and of late in union warburg they been getting a small taste of it. However one vital ingredient that was missing from the team you destroyed is a good empath. Having one of these tends to make life a real misery as the tables start to turn. Not saying its impossible but I bet there be a hell of a difference in the ease of taking out them heroes;
Anyway getting slightly distracted, as stated before things are not equal at the moment. One way as others and yourself have mentioned to help solve it is to make thaw more in line with clear mind - its crying out more for fear resistance then the need for added perception. I wouldn't complain if they added perception to forge either. The recent buff to thermals heal warmth has made a significant difference to survivability of that particular AT which is good.
I wish this ultimate villain team was formed just to see how it handled. Would be great to see it in action and just how well it functioned.
Heros
Max Powerz: Lv 50 Tanker
Villains
Max Khaos: Lv 50
Overlord of E.V.I.L.
My Brute - http://maxy-khaos.mybrute.com/
LF SG! Arc ID# 193083
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There are less guides around for villains and players have had less time with them then heroes. Has anyone tried putting together a team of ultimate villains for PvP?
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I personally cant think of an ultimate team of villains that the EU test servers pvp'ers couldn't deal with. Infact I go as far as to say that the best team of villains would struggle against a semi decent team of heroes. But hey that's where the fun is, in the challenge right?
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Afaik You cant beat a villain team without Rad/psi's. They have too much resistance for anything else. Its cause people dont buff.
How many of you have ever had a team with 2 thermals, 2 colds, 2 kins and a sonic?
A Paragon Defender
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There are less guides around for villains and players have had less time with them then heroes. Has anyone tried putting together a team of ultimate villains for PvP?
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I personally cant think of an ultimate team of villains that the EU test servers pvp'ers couldn't deal with. Infact I go as far as to say that the best team of villains would struggle against a semi decent team of heroes. But hey that's where the fun is, in the challenge right?
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Afaik You cant beat a villain team without Rad/psi's. They have too much resistance for anything else. Its cause people dont buff.
How many of you have ever had a team with 2 thermals, 2 colds, 2 kins and a sonic?
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Didnt have the sonic but had another thermal and a brute
P.S. Yes kicked [censored] but also know how I would deal with it.
P.S.S. Also in terms of balance I tend to look at in pentad way (1 of each AT in the team). Rightly or wrongly thats just how I look at it.
Heros
Max Powerz: Lv 50 Tanker
Villains
Max Khaos: Lv 50
Overlord of E.V.I.L.
My Brute - http://maxy-khaos.mybrute.com/
LF SG! Arc ID# 193083
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There are less guides around for villains and players have had less time with them then heroes. Has anyone tried putting together a team of ultimate villains for PvP?
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I personally cant think of an ultimate team of villains that the EU test servers pvp'ers couldn't deal with. Infact I go as far as to say that the best team of villains would struggle against a semi decent team of heroes. But hey that's where the fun is, in the challenge right?
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Afaik You cant beat a villain team without Rad/psi's. They have too much resistance for anything else. Its cause people dont buff.
How many of you have ever had a team with 2 thermals, 2 colds, 2 kins and a sonic?
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Didnt have the sonic but had another thermal and a brute
P.S. Yes kicked [censored] but also know how I would deal with it.
P.S.S. Also in terms of balance I tend to look at in pentad way (1 of each AT in the team). Rightly or wrongly thats just how I look at it.
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yeah Pentad is broken for Villains, they lack in buffing ability in a pentad format. Where Heroes can field 2 buffers (trollers and defenders can both buff), villains can only field one( Corruptor ) as Masterminds are severely lacking in the buffing abilities(FF and Poison are the only ones that provide non static buffs )and the buffs they do have don't even come close to that Heroes have.
Villains are also too dependent on their inherent abilities to be effective. Blasters don't need Defiance to kill stuff, controllers don't need containment to be effective, but Brutes do need Fury to make any difference, Stalkers need hide to do any significant damage(except EM stalkers), Dominators need Domination to do anything etc..
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How many of you have ever had a team with 2 thermals, 2 colds, 2 kins and a sonic?
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That's not a villain team, that's a Corruptor team. Corruptors just happen to be Villain AT's . Corruptors are good, no doubt about that.
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Dominators are getting better, but I've still to see one played as well as Bilharzia.
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I remember in my early dom days thinking "I'l just keep stacking holds" and bilharzia telling me to get back because they had an empath. Btw. just last night I was teamed with a brute friend on my thermal. Even buffed and laying on heals, a solo scrapper made short work of the brute. In that 2 on 1 situation we should have at least got close to a stalemate.
My MA IDs:
Fiend Space: 211464
what build was the brute?
Hopefully the patch on Test will make the Brutes more formidable. The problem with MM is that they need to stay near their pets (afaik). The pets gain small buffs when the MM is close by. Bodyguard helped make the MM better, but its still not enough. Most PvP fights are frantic rushing around and MMs just can't do that.
I fought Syn's MM in the Arena (as my sonic defender) and didn't even come close to beating him. I'm sure a fort'd scrapper could two or three shot a MM (if bodyguard wasn't up).
My Energy Brute can be taken down by anyone with Aim and a high damage attack + Stun/Hold. On the Recluse SF he was able to distract Citadel, while the rest of the team fought another Hero. Thanks to buffs from an Ice corruptor and Dark MM. (Also the fact that Energy Brutes have high Energy defence helped.)
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what build was the brute?
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Elec/Elec. I admit the elec primary isnt so hot, but I think the elec armor is really good for brutes. The scrapper was spine/regen (bet you havent seen one of those before!) which is why I think we would have been hard pushed to win, but a draw or closer loss would have been expected.
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Hopefully the patch on Test will make the Brutes more formidable. The problem with MM is that they need to stay near their pets (afaik).
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Aye, and pets have no KB protection (unless you go /FF?) Gale or M30 grenade scatters them all over and its goodnight bodyguard mode.
My MA IDs:
Fiend Space: 211464
Id have to agree with you on the brute build although, i would say that certain types of tanker are similar. My Fire armour tanker had impressive defence in normal play but in pvp was getting anhialated constantly, with both fire shield and plasma shield slotted 3 dmg resist. To compensate i had to use up two of my powers in order to get tough, just to survive against a stalker in one on one combat. Ironically, fighting the same stalker, my ice armour tanker, was a little more rugged (i emphasize only a little) but the end drain on the ice armour gets a little too much when being assassin strike-lung-placate repeatedly.
Its a fine balance really, by rights brutes and tankers should be able to stand up pretty well with just their primary armours, and deal a good amount as well. But then i suppose if it were that easy, everybody would pvp on tanks and brutes. I think if pvp was more of a team thing the problems encountered by most AT's wouldnt be so hard to balance out. But unfortunately, a LARGE number of people PvP solo, and i guess this is where the problem lies. In order to stop those solo PvP'ers getting destroyed by what would be a tougher or stronger AT in normal play, the inherant characteristics of those AT's has to be nerfed.
Otherwise you would have tanks and brutes having hour long battles, long after they have gotten rid of all the other AT's in the area. this of course is a generalization i know of course that tanks and brutes arent the be all and end all and there are AT's built out there that would make easy work of either but more as an example.
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, 40-50 adds little to villains but so much to heroes, sc and wb can throw things back and forward and can be loads of fun, but in the arena at lvl 50 the gap is almost comical. All my comments ahve been on villain ATs as a whole and my beef really is with the PPPs which just follow a weak lacklustre formula for each AT
Aside from lacklustre PPP's and a smattering of slots for non-PPP powers, there's not much difference. So I'd probably say high was mid-thirties +.
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And isnt that the sad truth
corr - shield, tool(immob/buff/end drain), hold, pet
Dom - shield, tool(end drain/disorient/debuff), attack and pet
MM - Shield, attack, immob and hold
Brute - 2 attacks, immob and pet
STalker - attack, [censored] weak snipe, hold and pet
I mean really, how incredibly lazy and pathetic were they to introduce these? Im fairly sure they have all sorts of numbers showing how the [censored] pet raises dps to x% over heroes but number rarely tell the story. Heroes epics all bring something new to the table and are different to the others
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