What really gets me about Spines is Impale. Ranged -fly, -jump and immob with really good damage. Can you say squishy killer?
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On the RV event I made an Ice/Therm corrupter who took down every regen I came across, they would usually chase me I pull them to where it was just 1v1, turn, heat exhaustion and a barrage of ice. Result, no end, no regen, no power rotation and I could still heal any damage being done to myself.
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Add my little bundle of joy, me and Drachaos worked out one morning ripping people's builds apart on TeampSpeak one afternoon... and I came up with, "Sonic/Thermal".. throw a n application or two of Heat Exhaustion and Melt Armor on to a granite tanker..
End Result: -regen, -recovery, -damage, -RES (25% base) to all and -DEF (25% base) to all. Then add Sonic's -RES.
ByeBye Granite/Rooted Tanker.
Tried in RV event.. guess what? *waved byebye to that tanker* XD
========
I found out recently as well, he put that idea to 'Statesman' on 'MMO Radio: IRC'.. not only did he apparntly say it was a damn good idea.. but ALSO, no one had thought about it yet over there XD w00t! go me! for a Unique Theory
(gonna see if I can get that actual conversation on file soon)
From what I could see of the heroes team there was no Empath, just 4 or 5 spines regen, a MA regen Scrapper and a tanker of some kind.
On the stealth point, I don't see where I could fit stealth into my build, SR pretty much demands you take every power, my primary is claws of which I have strike, slash and focus together with AS (note no placate or buildup below 30 as it is), when you add a travel power and fitness then there is no room for stealth.
The whole +ACC doesn't seem fair either, why should one power pretty much make my entire secondary set redundant.
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What really gets me about Spines is Impale. Ranged -fly, -jump and immob with really good damage. Can you say squishy killer?
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I'm interested to know just how a spines / regen would come out on top of a fight against an SR scrapper / stalker anyway. Radiant, did you have defence against the AoEs (the main problem for stalkers in Hide) and ranged attacks? Those are essentially the Spines' thing... as well as their toxic damage, which not many have resistance against.
IMO, it should be 50 / 50 - Spines can't get past the defences, and I would guess MA is possibly the best scrapper / stalker primary to attack regen with it's single target emphasis...
I think.
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What really gets me about Spines is Impale. Ranged -fly, -jump and immob with really good damage. Can you say squishy killer?
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I'm interested to know just how a spines / regen would come out on top of a fight against an SR scrapper / stalker anyway. Radiant, did you have defence against the AoEs (the main problem for stalkers in Hide) and ranged attacks? Those are essentially the Spines' thing... as well as their toxic damage, which not many have resistance against.
IMO, it should be 50 / 50 - Spines can't get past the defences, and I would guess MA is possibly the best scrapper / stalker primary to attack regen with it's single target emphasis...
I think.
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Yep got all the SR powers as soon as possible and 3 slotted em all with DEF SOs but evade doesn't appear until lvl 35 so can't be used in sirens.
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What really gets me about Spines is Impale. Ranged -fly, -jump and immob with really good damage. Can you say squishy killer?
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I'm interested to know just how a spines / regen would come out on top of a fight against an SR scrapper / stalker anyway. Radiant, did you have defence against the AoEs (the main problem for stalkers in Hide) and ranged attacks? Those are essentially the Spines' thing... as well as their toxic damage, which not many have resistance against.
IMO, it should be 50 / 50 - Spines can't get past the defences, and I would guess MA is possibly the best scrapper / stalker primary to attack regen with it's single target emphasis...
I think.
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Yep got all the SR powers as soon as possible and 3 slotted em all with DEF SOs but evade doesn't appear until lvl 35 so can't be used in sirens.
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:/
Hmm, maybe your build isn't made for multiple scrapper fighting then? Try and think of it as a controller / blaster / defender killer...
Without Placate or Build-Up, I wouldn't imagine you'd be able to push enough damage to get a regen on the ropes 
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As far as Spines/Regen go, my Brute can beat them toe-to-toe. The problem is keeping them in toe-to-toe range once they start to lose. 
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In SC i went toe to toe with my spines/regen Vs a SS/Inv brute and it was remarkably good fun, it lasted quite a while with heals and dull pains being fired off (no insp) my initial advantage was slowly eroded away by the brutes growing power. It literally did come down to the last hit, which unfortunately for me he got Was a lot of fun.
**Acceptable "support" responses**
Its your fault
Its your computers fault
Its your ISPs fault
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As far as Spines/Regen go, my Brute can beat them toe-to-toe. The problem is keeping them in toe-to-toe range once they start to lose.
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In SC i went toe to toe with my spines/regen Vs a SS/Inv brute and it was remarkably good fun, it lasted quite a while with heals and dull pains being fired off (no insp) my initial advantage was slowly eroded away by the brutes growing power. It literally did come down to the last hit, which unfortunately for me he got Was a lot of fun.
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Yeah, my best fights have been with brutes too, had actual stalemates with one or two 
Sorry you had a bad time. Seems there are almost always way more heroes than villains on defiant. If I wasnt enjoying the pve side so much i'd wipe my Dom and rebuild him on union. I'm just hopeing "city of lvl 40+ spine blasters" balances out a bit nearer the end of the year. If it helps I sometimes play a MM with grant invis and enjoy teaming with stalkers.
My MA IDs:
Fiend Space: 211464
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Not really, but PvP in CoX is largely rock, paper, scissors, and a bit of talent.
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Im interested to know how you came to that conclusion RW? Shed some light?
Most PvP systems in MMO try to work on a Rock, Paper, Scissors approach. An approach which WoW manage extremely well. So grats to them. However, with CoH, its very easy put builds in 2 camps. PvP capable, and PvE.
Its my experience that in CoH/CoV there are Uber PvP builds that can cope with 99% of other ATs. Leading to imbalance etc. Which leads to dev nerfage.
Follow FOTM's for example.
EM Stalkers
Spines/Regen
FOTM's from some time ago:
Blappers
Illusion/Kin trollers.
Rock, Paper and Scissors is a CoX utopia and always will be since the game is primarily designed for PvE. Devs may have other impressions about their achievements. To them i say - Go try WoW.
And this isnt out of frustration. I have PvP capable toons. I'm just not very good with them. I enjoy PvP when im winning or losing. (within reason...!) Neither is it out of a Fanboy love for WoW. I cant play that game anymore - bores the pointy bits off me. Certainly CoX devs could learn some tricks from it though.
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From what I could see of the heroes team there was no Empath, just 4 or 5 spines regen, a MA regen Scrapper and a tanker of some kind.
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maybe one (or more) of em had tactics? if they did, they were prolly meant to hunt down stalkers
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On the stealth point, I don't see where I could fit stealth into my build
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fair point, always make the build as you deem fit, thats what I do. However take in mind that players who min/max their build for PvP will always have the upper hand over you in PvP. Course a reply now could be "why do I have to have a seperate PvP build to PvP?", which is a fair remark indeed, one thats been discussed many many times. However, this doesnt only apply to PvP but for PvE as well. Min/maxers in PvE will also have the upper hand in one specific aspect and will prolly be worse in PvP. Just like PvP builds might not work in PvE. Problem is, in PvP you notice it more as you are on the receiving end of it 
. This doesnt mean that non-PvP specific builds dont work in PvP. My MM (robo/poison) is PvE built, and even before the bodyguard function, I could be a thorn in the side of many a hero I fought. Course I got beaten a fair share of times by PvP builds. But like I said, thats the risk of PvPing.. there are people who fully gear their character to PvP.
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(note no placate or buildup below 30 as it is)
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ok, whole PvP/PvE build aside.. going into PvP without placate or buildup on a stalker is practically suicide. Placate is the tool that will keep you alive vs at least 1 scrapper and buildup is needed to kill those pesky regens. After all, regens are strong in prolonged battle, but 1 or 2 shortly following heavy blows will get em just as dead.
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The whole +ACC doesn't seem fair either, why should one power pretty much make my entire secondary set redundant.
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Thats CoX PvP... one big game of rock-paper-scissors.. Every set has its counterpart, it aint just +acc vs +def. If that IS your main issue, bring a darkie to debuff that acc just as soon as they get it . No set has the upper hand (e.g. it cant be nullified by nother power) over the other. Regen is strong, but bring a robo-nin/dark-poison MM and you'll shred em (robo/dark for instance after you get dark servant has 5 -regen powers), also as said before ice/cold, ice/therm, ice/rad and ice/kin corrupters can kill /regen scrappers as well. Use the secondary to cripple their regen and/or end recovery, then use ice primary to slow down their attacks (so they also cant use instant healing that often) and they wont pose much of a threat.
Name any set, and there can be thought of a counterpart for that set You as defbased stalker should just be careful of people with -def (e.g. rads) or +acc (e.g. tactics, fortitude, etc). Course +acc is more dangerous than -def as SR has some def debuff resistance
"god, how many devs did hami have to sleep with to get ED?"
Total Cat @Stagefright
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Name any set, and there can be thought of a counterpart for that set
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Sounds like the devs did their job then on making PvP balanced
A couple of other points -
Ganking isn't ganking if the larger group are attacked by the smaller group - for example, an 8 person team are attacked by 2 Stalkers looking to take out the Squishies on the team - the Stalkers fail with their AS, and are then jumped on by the whole team.
An 8 person team tp-ing in single foes and beating them into the ground is ganking.
Base-camping is done by both sides, but often not for the usual reasons - if there is an imbalance of sides, then it's fairer to fight closer to the smaller sides base so that they can return to the fighting quicker, as they are more likely to go down.
If the imbalance of sides is too big, then it's possible to set up smaller fights or duels, and make sure that everyone gets a fair turn at fighting. (Although this really has to be done late at night, when there aren't many other players around who may refuse to try and even out the odds)
Every AT can shine in PvP - but the key to getting them to work well is to team - teaming, like kittens, makes the world a better place.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Name any set, and there can be thought of a counterpart for that set
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Sounds like the devs did their job then on making PvP balanced
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well still the prob is some sets got more counterparts than the other
"god, how many devs did hami have to sleep with to get ED?"
Total Cat @Stagefright
Look, my team of rabid PvP Empaths! A gaggle of Brutes! Charge them down!
DON'T eat muffins while I'm developing you.
Pants! Turkey Magnates! A man in a box! Rogue AI! Come one, come all, to arc ID 10107 - It's [i]'Not as long as some other arcs'[/i]!
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What have I learned about PvP
1) Unless you are a spines regen scrapper you are [censored] and will die
2) Hide is worthless as every body can see through it
3) SR is useless and as you get hit all the time and don't get a heal so you're just gonna die.
4) The 'improvements' to hospitals in PvP zones now mean that most of the action now takes place while waiting for your rest to recharge.
5) Teleport foe doesn't need line of sight and seems to totally ignore SRs defense.
6) Heroes are spawn point lhamas just waiting for someone to pop their head over the wall so they can gank em.
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1) I don't have a spines/regen and i don't think i'm [censored]... also i don't die very much. I'll give you that Spines/Regen are relatively easy to PVP with compared to other builds. Stalkers are easy to play as well though.
2) Depending too much on hide will be the death of you. Depending on any power too much is not recommended as there will always be a counter to that power. In this case heroes have found a counter to hide, as many have in Siren's.
3) SR is not useless, it has excellent mez protection, improved recharge on powers, slow protection, decent defense and a fantastic lv 38 power. You'll be laughing at people when running Elude. The problem is that your defense toggles alone will not be enough to protect you in PVP. You'll need to make creative use of your movement and stealth powers as well.
4) Yeah, it's a bit crappy. Although now, the hospital might be a good area to gather your forces for an all out assault.
5) it does and it doesn't
6) So are villains. Everyone can do that.
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Tried it, its rubbish and won't be rushing back.
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You tried, but you haven't learned much. You need to play more to learn more and get better. Don't go into a zone and expect to kick [censored] the first time. Most people there will have much more experience than you.
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On the stealth point, I don't see where I could fit stealth into my build, SR pretty much demands you take every power, my primary is claws of which I have strike, slash and focus together with AS (note no placate or buildup below 30 as it is), when you add a travel power and fitness then there is no room for stealth.
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SR does not demand you take every power, especially in PVP. My SR stalker only has Hide, Focused Senses(ranged defense), Practiced Brawler(mez protection) and quickness before lv 30. With that build I can easily fit in both Stealth and Combat Jumping, which are both handy in PVP and I can easily solo and team in PVE as well. Fast movement and use of stealth(combo of hide+stealth and placate), will benefit you more in PVP than defense toggles as not being seen is always better defense than the max 30% of toggles and passives combined.
Also, always get Build up and Placate as soon as possible. Both are must haves for Stalkers in PVE and PVP.
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[...] 5) Teleport foe doesn't need line of sight and seems to totally ignore SRs defense. [...]
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[...] 5) it does and it doesn't [...]
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Must be a PvP-specific change, because I have no problems TP Foeing from around corners and what not in PvE.
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[...] 5) Teleport foe doesn't need line of sight and seems to totally ignore SRs defense. [...]
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[...] 5) it does and it doesn't [...]
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Must be a PvP-specific change, because I have no problems TP Foeing from around corners and what not in PvE.
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You need to be able to see a target first to target them though . That would mean you were in LOS. You don't need to be in constant LOS though. Basically it's better not to be seen at all.
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I'd say doing it repeatedly, where the target has no chance to escape, despite being asked to stop, would be griefing.
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you still can't..I usaly go search for another player if I see a gank squad..why?..its not fun for the person who get ganked and I like to have a real ''fight'' myself instead of making 1 hit
All i can say is team up , if your a hero, it makes it horriblely uneven for vilians lol. Other than that its all down to skill practise and not getting over emotional, i got tp'ed to a drone by a MM last night, i didn't really care, its a good tactic to get a player out of play, so you can get the upper hand. I simply returned the favor by Aim+build up+power boosting and sniping him when he ad no pets in the villian base .All is fair in love and war. Ther is no fair fight, even in RL, some one wil always be fst but your stronger, smarter but your faster and on and on. Trynot to let this remove you from pvp. It is a relaly fun part of the game once you get into it! So my tips for you are..
1) Team up, it makes it alot more fun and gives you loads more options. ( my fave is the "defender is alone trick", works like a charm against stalkers!
2) Make a pvp build if you want to get serious, i don't have one but i hear it helps
3)bring break frees and inspirations, one must always go into battle prepared!
4)High lvl pvp is different then low lvl aswell, try that if sirens isn't your thing
5)Buy the temp powers from the vendors, they help alot.
6) did i mention team? this is a MMo pvp game now, its not really ment to be balance solo. It is very much more balanced teamed, and once you get the hang of it, lone players won't really try to attack you as they will be destroyed!
7) don't underestimate a defender or corruptor, they can be worse the stalkers, especially teamed
8) Masterminds are useless with out pets , attck them and he has no bodyguard.
9) constantly move!
10) If your first option exit is block try the other one?
ill think of more later
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He went back towards them, he could have left the PvPer zone.
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Definately. This person was there to kill heroes. Those heroes have a right to stop that happening. Simple as.
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pvp is rubbish in this game, don't even bother with it is my advice, you meet much nicer people just doing the pve game as pvp tends to attract the more childish members of the game.
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1 v 1 PvP is pretty poor, I agree. But team PvP in this game is sooooo much fun. The PvP is clearly aimed at team fights. And it does work. A good team can counteract almost anything.
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As many have said, the game wasn't designed for PvP, and even in team PvP I've never been in a situation where the opposing sides have felt balanced. Generally, the fights are won before they're fought.
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In zones, I'd probably agree. They're very rarely well balanced. And the majority of the time, each side is working on their own, even if they're in a team.
But when you get two teams who actually work together it's amazing fun. Some of my best moments in this game have been in PvP fights.
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1) Unless you are a spines regen scrapper you are [censored] and will die
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Not really. They are pretty popular at the moment. Average or bad players can do well against other average or bad players. But if you get someone who can PvP well, they'll destroy most Spines/Regen scrappers.
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2) Hide is worthless as every body can see through it
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It's not as good as it used to be. But that's only because people have realised they can counter it. Any team with an empath (well, a decent empath at least) will have no trouble with stalkers. And there are a number of other powers with +perception. Stalkers either need to get stealth, or team with someone with grant invis. They're no longer able to kill with impunity. Which is good.
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3) SR is useless and as you don't get a heal your just gonna die.
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SR is actually quite strong in PvP. But again, there are a number of accuracy buffs in the game. An empath with Fortitude and tactics (especially if there are more people with tactics) is going to make a big difference against SR (or other defence based sets). Same with any blaster who has Aim/Build Up.
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Only suggestion I can give, is when you go to a PvP zone, an all-stalker team isnt as effective as it looks, cause a decent balanced hero team will kick your [censored] with relative ease.
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Definately. You want some buffers/debuffers/mezzers on the team. Any decent mixed hero team can destroy a team of Stalkers.
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4) The 'improvements' to hospitals in PvP zones now mean that most of the action now takes place while waiting for your rest to recharge.
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Agreed. I hate this change. It just slows down the fights in a zone. Especially if you're losing.
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Heroes are spawn point lhamams just waiting for someone to pop their head over the wall so they can gank em.
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So grab some mates/total strangers. Work out what you're going to do (i.e. Who to go for first, second, etc). Then destroy the campers.
I did that recently. A SG mate mentioned over TS that a large (more than 8) group of villains was base camping the heroes in Sirens. So we got a team together (only 6 of us). Buffed up, charged out, annhilated the villains. Who then accused us of ganking (this is the same people who'd been TPing any hero who stepped out of the hospital). Even though we were outnumbered. That was a great moment.
Ganking. Gang Killing.
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Personally I hate ganking and wont join in if people start doin it.
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It does get boring. But I also don't want to wait around forver waiting for the opposite side to get organised. That's even more boring. I'm more happy being outnumbered. A small team against two or three full teams. Now that is fun.
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knowing that I'm going to get ganked but seeing if I can take someone down with me just for the hell of it
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That's always good fun. Knowing you're going to die, but trying to take at least one person with you. 
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(note no placate or buildup below 30 as it is)
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That's a part of your problem really. Both of those are important powers for a stalker in PvP.
Well, rule #1 in PvP is not to have fun...its to ub4h r0xx0r pwn your enemy into smitheries and then go to your homies and say "d00d...I totally g4nked dat n00b"
/sarcasm_off
Seriously.....thats how alot of people are when it comes to PvP...wherever you go...sadly.
Alot of people dont do PvP for the fun (even though some finds it fun to gank other players) and the challenge, they come with pre built PvP/anti templates just to run over other players.
My first PvP experience was really bad too...it took 1 hero approx 10 seconds to beat my dominator into an ugly spot on the ground.
But Im still coming back....gotten better and better =D
PvP reminds me a little of the old boyscout saying: always prepared.
Go to Sirens Call or Blood Bay and try out some more PvP, if you find yourself on the loosing end all the time...then leave and try again later.
Always when SC is overrunned by PvP/anti templates...I leave....and eventually comes back after 2-3 hours.
I can understand how you feel...but as so many others have said here...you shouldnt be too hasty with conclusions =)
Jeg leser i h�nden, om tiden som kommer.
Jeg lytter til havet, og ser tiden som var.
Jeg snakker med fjell, og tiden st�r stille.
Jeg snakker med meg selv, og tiden g�r.
Jeg lukker et �ye, og ser halvt.
Jeg lukker begge, og ser alt.
La meg ligge...
La meg ligge...
La meg ligge...igjen.
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Well, rule #1 in PvP is not to have fun...its to ub4h r0xx0r pwn your enemy into smitheries and then go to your homies and say "d00d...I totally g4nked dat n00b"
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Although that's pretty common in the zones (common, but not the majority mind me /activate shield for flames), it's quite strange in arena. Actually, having pvp'ed a while myself, I just found that 3-4 times there. I wouldnt pvp myself against someone I consider a 'n00b' actually, as I consider that would be a waste of time. I would against a newbie tho
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[...] 5) Teleport foe doesn't need line of sight and seems to totally ignore SRs defense. [...]
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[...] 5) it does and it doesn't [...]
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Must be a PvP-specific change, because I have no problems TP Foeing from around corners and what not in PvE.
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You need to be able to see a target first to target them though . That would mean you were in LOS. [...]
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You don't need to be in line of sight of a foe to target it, though.
Wah! Im away from the game couple of days and already somebody gets a bad pvp experience..
Actually, if the pvp zone is overpowered by either side, its going to be very very bad for beginning PVPers, and my advive is either to try recruiting some more people to your side on arena channel or leave it to some other time.. You aren't going to get any mercy no matter what the odds. (the tp foeing is daft though) That can be either good or bad depending on viewpoint, I like the challenge, but recognize the fact that sometimes you just got no chance. Thats the nature of PVP. Of course, suddenly some person or team might join your side and it switches completely around.. The other side cowering in their base.. Its all what fascinates me in PvP zones.
Some hints though: you WILL want stealth on your stalker in addition to hide before you enter PVP zones, its simply not worth it trying with just hide. And even then some dedicated stalkerhunter builds will be able to see you, so the best defense is always to hide behind walls and corners if you see heroes.. Don't blindly trust your powers EVER!
Same goes the other way. If a regen scrapper gets overconfident and just stands there, ANY two stalkers can take him down just like that. It is all relative. I can take regen scrappers down solo with my currently under-par stalker if they happen to be slow with reconstruction-button. Nothing is absolute in this game.
One other thing is to team with other stalkers, and try to AS the same scrappers/tanks at the same time. A good stalker team is a frightening thing.
And if you go against overwhelming odds, just acknowledge that you have no chance, and don't get worked over it. Just come along some other time. It is impossible for the zones to be in balance all the time. (its very rare with our small playerbase actually)
One thing that I don't understand is why most good pvp-players seem to be on the hero side in Sirens.. I laid off playing my blaster in Sirens cause it was too easy to get kills. With my stalker it actually requires some skill. I wish the good players would come up with more good villain builds, and for a change something else than stalkers.
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1) Unless you are a spines regen scrapper you are crap and will die
[/ QUOTE ]Unless you aren't a skilled PvP'er, with a PvP build, you'll lose against another skilled PvP'er with a PvP build.
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2) Hide is worthless as every body can see through it
[/ QUOTE ]Hide alone isn't worth much, hide in combination with other +stealth powers is very useful.
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3) SR is useless and as you get hit all the time and don't get a heal so you're just gonna die.
[/ QUOTE ]SR will get hit easily with people who heavily slot accuracy and/or have heavy ToHit buffs, at least when not running elude. If you want to heal yourself, just get aid self.
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4) The 'improvements' to hospitals in PvP zones now mean that most of the action now takes place while waiting for your rest to recharge.
[/ QUOTE ]Agreed, the 1 HP/END is silly. What they tried to accomplish with it did not work, but would work if they made it 1 HP 100% END.
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5) Teleport foe doesn't need line of sight and seems to totally ignore SRs defense.
[/ QUOTE ]It doesn't ignore it, however with proper slotting and buffs the miss chance is low.
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6) Heroes are spawn point lhamas just waiting for someone to pop their head over the wall so they can gank em.
[/ QUOTE ] Idiots are spawn/base campers, no matter which side.