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Im interested to know how you came to that conclusion RW? Shed some light?
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Only just noticed this, probably too late to reply really, but...
What little actual PvP experience I have in CoX would appear to imply that I can either beat something, or not, which tends to support your view.
However, from what I read, the majority seem to think it's RPS, and from a set of arena duels I witnessed recently, I'd have to say it's biased, but not a certainty, especially when you take into account that Cryptic have explicitly not balanced the game for one-on-one combat. As soon as you start mixing other ATs in, you start getting closer to RPS (I'd imagine).
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Agree that team pvp 'can' be RPS, but it becomes far too complicated to debate. In my opinion the building blocks, i.e the characters making up the team should be balanced to truely allow team pvp to be balanced.
As it stands, the effectiveness of certain builds still shines through in team games.
Regarding RPS, i dont like that terminology in general with CoH. Statistically RPS should allow 33% Win, 33% Lose, 33% Draw. Which in WoW translates to , 33% Easy Wins, 33% Lose (by default), 33% Tough fights (My Experience with Rogues; Easy vs Mages, Fun Fight vs Druids, Shamans, Warriors and Other Rogues, Hellish time vs Priests, Palas and Warlocks.).
CoH has something WoW doesnt have. CoH has builds that provide PvP tools that can yield 90% Win, 5% Lose, 5% Draw.
I think CoX devs need to think hard about 2 things.
1)Movement - Travel powers screw RPS big time. A Ranged glass cannon cannot do the 'cannon' part if he has no means of kiting. The strange thing about this point is that the build offered the best means of kiting is a spines scrapper! Someone reliant on being melee.
2) Damage Scalars in PvP. Stalkers dictate under the current format that the PvP damage is near 1 shot capabilities. This does not promote a skilled fight. When people are using 2-3 attacks to succeed in a pvp fight that lasts 5 seconds its not really too exciting. (Not aimed soley at Stalkers.)
In WoW, as a rogue, i had to use at least 8-9 different abilities to take down most targets. Even with an Ambush out ot stealth on a cloth target, I would still need to follow up with a decent stun lock or be feared, sheeped or immobilised. Against a warrior we are talking serious skill. Poison both blades with crippling, open with cheap shot, back stab, sinister strike, Rupture, move outside melee range, but within charge range, reenter stealth (5 seconds without attacking), watch for battle shout, cheap shot, backstab, sinister strike, kidney shot, vanish, garrote, sprint out and wait for warrior to drop. Now, i only won 50% of my fights with warriors, because managing that kind of an attack chain, which is necessary to negate the high armour values of warriors, was never easy.
Oh, wait, im in CoH now, Build Up, Aim, Blazing Bolt, Blaze, Target down. Next! <Insert variety of other examples here>
I just dont think that when fights last so little time, there is much room for skill at all. If fights were longer, we might have to think about attack chains. As it stands, Jousts attack chain doesnt come into play unless fighting a tanker/brute. Even then its not a chain which required much thought, it was a necessary use of all my damage powers to put a dent in their HP. Not much skill in hitting powers the second they recharge.
So, a proposal, reduce the damage in PvP accross the board. Forcing more attacks to be used and proper attack chains! And no, this isnt prodding stalkers with a sharp stick! Forces these guys to use placate and actually use a sensible attack chain too. Whats more, if you take near 1 shotting ASing off them, you could afford to give them back high -perception power! If that wasn't acceptable, they have the option of playing a bit with base resistance levels accross the board. Allowing for the unresistable component of an AS to still shine.
Anyway. Just dont think CoX has PVP down at all well atm. Still enjoy it tho - in a simple kind of way.
Sorry, very OT I guess. To the OP - sucks that you got ganked, most of the time a broadcast chat should resolve. Just watch you dont get ASed while typing tho!
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In danger of forming the worlds largest pyramid..
I though the pvp in WoW was awful! It was the one thing that really put me off the game. That, and the constant waiting..
The PvP was slow, palis are invincible, and the combat looked dull.
Yes, there are FOTM builds in PvP, however, as has been said time and time again, team pvp is where its at. Blancing single AT pvp is a total waste of time.
RPS, 33% Win, 33%lose 33% draw is irrelevant when applied to team matches. And team pvp in CoX ( imho ) is twenty times better than World of Nimmers.
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Empath on his own = poor.
2 Blasters on their own vs 4 Stalkers = Quite poor.
2 Blaster + 1 Empath vs 4+ Stalkers = Win.
Balancing is completely borked.
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I freely admit to not being a 'l33t' PvP player, but in my own experience, PvP is far from that predictable. Perhaps it becomes so at the very highest levels.
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Empath on his own = poor.
2 Blasters on their own vs 4 Stalkers = Quite poor.
2 Blaster + 1 Empath vs 4+ Stalkers = Win.
Balancing is completely borked.
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I freely admit to not being a 'l33t' PvP player, but in my own experience, PvP is far from that predictable. Perhaps it becomes so at the very highest levels.
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Call me weird but I see that example as proof that PvP isn't borked. Variety should be the spice of life for PvP surely? Like 4 of anything should produce "lessening returns" the more of the same types you group together the less effective each additional one becomes, no? Throw a Corrupter in their instead and suddenly Its On
You can tell from some of the posts and now from 'Uber Builds' floating around that there are a lot of people who really don't like losing; I mean REALLY don't like losing.
I'm okay in the old PvP, I win some, I lose some. I couldn't give a monkeys about uber builds, I personally, find it more satisfying that:
1) I take my concept built PvE character into PvP and try my luck.
2) I tweak said character to better suit PvP without being untrue to my original character design.
3) I enjoy losing as much as winning.
4) I like the challenge of being beaten and saying 'Right, new plan....' then winning with new tactics.
5) I think its funny to solo my buffbot against 20 enemies get ganked and then mock that team of 20 uber-built gankers on their fine moment of triumph against the outstanding odds of my lvl 25 Empath..... 
Seriously guys. Go out there and try your best. What's the worst that can happen..... losing? Oh. No.
When the right crowds are in there (they're quite a few currently) it can be just as funny to die as it is to win.
I was on my 'squishy' blaster the other day teamed with at least 2 Spines/regen (the FotM) and they died just as much as me. Uber build? Hmmmm....
Have fun people!
"Like War_Hero said, leave it as it is, it toughens up the softies." - Naz Nomad
Union Heroes
War Borg - Leader of The Paragon Knights
Union Villains
McCabe - Co-leader of The Rogue Knights
Defiant - Supreme Hero
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Empath on his own = poor.
2 Blasters on their own vs 4 Stalkers = Quite poor.
2 Blaster + 1 Empath vs 4+ Stalkers = Win.
Balancing is completely borked.
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I freely admit to not being a 'l33t' PvP player, but in my own experience, PvP is far from that predictable. Perhaps it becomes so at the very highest levels.
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Dont worry, i freely admit to not being a good PvPer. (OMG you used 1337 sp34k therefor you must be lying about not being a good player!!!!eleven!!)
My point in this instance is that 1 player, an Empath, can turn the tables so completely on what was a one sided bout. Not just make it more even, i mean totally send the balance the otehr way. CM+Tactics = big problem for stalkers. Add Fort on each of their likely targets and they were really struggling. As i said in the toehr post. Empath + 2 Blaster + 1 Controller, (yes 4 man team) Basically defeated a continual onslaught from 8 or more villains. Which if memory servers, included mainly stalkers and brutes, but 1 necro mastermind and 1 corrupter.
Ill give up with the arguement. As you will note. I'm still enjoying PvP, but i think to enjoy it you have to have a PvP capable toon. Without that, and even in most teams, your fodder for the PvP FoTMs.
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Empath on his own = poor.
2 Blasters on their own vs 4 Stalkers = Quite poor.
2 Blaster + 1 Empath vs 4+ Stalkers = Win.
Balancing is completely borked.
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Well ya, one AT vs three. No change means the same tactic will work for all 4 stalkers, clear mind twice then attack. corruptor brute staller vs blaster, scrapper, defender = alot more possiblities
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then mock that team of 20 uber-built gankers on their fine moment of triumph against the outstanding odds of my lvl 25 Empath.....
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[Don't take this personally War_Hero, because it's not aimed at you, just your choice of word - I agree with the sentiment in the majority of your last post]
It's the mocking (and gloating, and accusations) that really puts me off PvP in predominantly PvE games. Whether you win or lose, chances are that someone will hassle you, either aggrieved because you killed them, or gloating nastily because they "owned" you, and a lot of the time it escalates. God forbid if you kill them, then later they get revenge on you - you never hear the end of it. And before anyone says it, I never liked putting players on ignore - just means they get to slander your reputation on broadcast without you being able to defend yourself (so you look guilty).
I love PvP if its done right (game is built with it as a core design concept) - I think it's quite telling that I ran into less "mocking" in pure PvP MMOs like Planetside (which I really enjoyed), than I did in an MMO with a PvP endgame like Dark Age of Camelot - and I saw less "mocking" in DAoC (Euro servers) than on the US PvP servers in EverQuest 1 (RZ & SZ), a pure PvE MMO with PvP bolted on as an unbalanced afterthought. It just seems to me that the more integral PvP is to the games design (i.e. the more commonplace it is to PvP) the less problems you have with other players when you kill/get-killed-by them.
Now I haven't spent a lot of time in the PvP zones in CoV/H, but almost everytime Ive gone there (usually to do missions, get badges or just explore) Ive seen some kind of argument on /broadcast. Honestly it just doesn't tempt me into going there purely to PvP.
Because PvP isn't the main focus in CoH/V team PvPing is a rarity rather than the norm. In Planetside & DAoC you have no problem getting into teams for PvP - its the norm - so I think less "mocking" goes on because it's harder to victimise individuals (there was plenty of inter-faction rivalry between teams in Planetside & DAoC, but it was usually without malice).
Here PvP is a minority interest on already underpopulated servers, so you're pushed more into one-on-one PvP if you want to PvP at all, which the game isn't balanced for - so some builds can just dominate (making their player more likely to gloat) while other builds struggle (making the player more likely to complain, feeling theyre being griefed/ganked a lot).
I could be wrong - I haven't spent more than a handful of hours in the PvP zones yet with my 3 highest characters (MM, Brute, Stalker), and I havent been to RV yet - but that's just how it seems to me, and is the reason I don't feel like PvPing much in CoH/V - that and the fact most of my friends in CoH/V despise PvP unreservedly. I might feel different once I have some L50 characters, but only if I get fed up of the PvE game (where generally everyone is friendly and less interested in aggravating each other). The rest of the time I can just do without the hassle from players, and the lack of character progress/rewards in CoH/V PvP.
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Yes, there are FOTM builds in PvP, however, as has been said time and time again, team pvp is where its at. Blancing single AT pvp is a total waste of time.
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And I might point out, a FOTM build is one that is POPULAR as I perceive it. That doesnt make it super. Spines/regen scrapper is GOOD, not über.
Stalkers *can* fight without hide. Just because you can see them doesn't guarantee you can beat them.
Damn Straight they can, my Katana/DA scrapper got his [censored] handed to him by a MA/SR stalker 
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Empath on his own = poor.
2 Blasters on their own vs 4 Stalkers = Quite poor.
2 Blaster + 1 Empath vs 4+ Stalkers = Win.
Balancing is completely borked.
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4 stalkers should always kill blasters and empath at similar skilled players
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Empath on his own = poor.
2 Blasters on their own vs 4 Stalkers = Quite poor.
2 Blaster + 1 Empath vs 4+ Stalkers = Win.
Balancing is completely borked.
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Not really. My experience is that villains, especially the ones playing Stalkers, do not use team coordination. So it's not a case of 3 vs 4+, it's more of a case of 4+ times 3 vs 1's.
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Empath on his own = poor.
2 Blasters on their own vs 4 Stalkers = Quite poor.
2 Blaster + 1 Empath vs 4+ Stalkers = Win.
Balancing is completely borked.
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I freely admit to not being a 'l33t' PvP player, but in my own experience, PvP is far from that predictable. Perhaps it becomes so at the very highest levels.
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<snip>
My point in this instance is that 1 player, an Empath, can turn the tables so completely on what was a one sided bout. Not just make it more even, i mean totally send the balance the otehr way. CM+Tactics = big problem for stalkers. Add Fort on each of their likely targets and they were really struggling. As i said in the toehr post. Empath + 2 Blaster + 1 Controller, (yes 4 man team) Basically defeated a continual onslaught from 8 or more villains. Which if memory servers, included mainly stalkers and brutes, but 1 necro mastermind and 1 corrupter.
<snip>
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It turns the tide, because the empath is the adversary of the stalker (teamed of course). Brutes also aint very efficient if a blaster can kill em before they build up fury (which they can with fortitude with maybe a little addon of defiance). To counter said empath, bring a corrupter or dominator in the mix, to counter the controller, bring a MM.
As said before, 4 of the same type aint a good way to build a team. Of course you as you said mainly killing stalkers is an example of how one-sided PvP in the zones currently is most of the times. When I go to a PvP zone, 90% of the villains there (if not 100%) are stalkers. Bring in a balanced hero team, and they dont pose a threat.
You say "i think to enjoy it you have to have a PvP capable toon". Well, I bet most of the stalkers there are PvP builds, cause I barely see em around in PvE 
. Add to that that stalkers inherently got an advantage in PvP (hide) and you see why theyre so popular in the zones. However, with PvE teambuild with said 2 blasters, empath and controller you still can give them a hard time. Kinda proves you dont need a PvP build doesnt it?
Of course, if the hardcore PvPers bring in balanced PvP teams to the zone in an attempt of coordinated huntin, sure, you'll die a fair bit more, but still with PvE builds you stand a chance. Most of the toons I bring to PvP are PvE builds (and 2 semi-PvP builds, which only included swappin 2 powers and in no way harms their PvE game). Yet I dont qualify myself as a bad PvPer, and neither do people whom I've fought with dedicated PvP builds.
"god, how many devs did hami have to sleep with to get ED?"
Total Cat @Stagefright
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Empath on his own = poor.
2 Blasters on their own vs 4 Stalkers = Quite poor.
2 Blaster + 1 Empath vs 4+ Stalkers = Win.
Balancing is completely borked.
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4 stalkers should always kill blasters and empath at similar skilled players
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My money is on the blasters + emp, but it could be a close and interesting fight. If the stalkers all had spines (easiest way to spike), they would probably have good odds.
A Paragon Defender
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Empath on his own = poor.
2 Blasters on their own vs 4 Stalkers = Quite poor.
2 Blaster + 1 Empath vs 4+ Stalkers = Win.
Balancing is completely borked.
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4 stalkers should always kill blasters and empath at similar skilled players
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My money is on the blasters + emp, but it could be a close and interesting fight. If the stalkers all had spines (easiest way to spike), they would probably have good odds.
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as always it depends on the player and tactics involved, empath and blasters wouldnt see my and my stalking partner untill it was too late.
**Acceptable "support" responses**
Its your fault
Its your computers fault
Its your ISPs fault
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as always it depends on the player and tactics involved, empath and blasters wouldnt see my and my stalking partner untill it was too late.
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Dude you should really watch that three or four CMs can see throught Invis and Hide!
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as always it depends on the player and tactics involved, empath and blasters wouldnt see me and my stalking partner untill it was too late.
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Dude you should really watch that three or four CMs can see throught Invis and Hide!
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lol
Even heroes with MAXED perception cap cannot see stalkers with hide + Stealth + Invis other except within 10ft. 10 ft is NOT enough distance for the heroes in this hypothetical situation to act in a manner that is anyway threatening to stalkers in said condition.
Our fast strike stalkers are adept at working in tandem and simultaneous strikes on same target (we dont use AS) would result in a dead hero. Of course they can move about and make it difficult but at no time should stalkers in this situation as I have described be in any remote danger.
I am not prone to statements of bravado nor do I profess to be a good pvp player, merely played the game enough on both sides and am analytical enough to see all possibilities and scenarios. reaching and maintaining perception cap is a lot more bothersome than remaining on the stealth cap.
**Acceptable "support" responses**
Its your fault
Its your computers fault
Its your ISPs fault
I see your invis other+hide+stealth and raise you a bubbler giving out all shields and with all aoe shields up+hover+Cryo armor+invis other+fort, now try and hit me with AS!
and just to tip it in my favor more im running a damge toggle and the controller is a */storm with arctic air and steamy mist on!
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I see your invis other+hide+stealth and raise you a bubbler giving out all shields and with all aoe shields up+hover+Cryo armor+invis other+fort, now try and hit me with AS!
and just to tip it in my favor more im running a damge toggle and the controller is a */storm with arctic air and steamy mist on!
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thats all well and good and clearly no AT can be set up for all scenarios, I was refering to the 2 blasters + I empath situation that was said to "overbalance" a battle against stalkers.
Stalkers are not the be all and end all and are easily countered, my BS/SR chopped up no end of them in SC utilizing parry to good effect, indeed I had 5 of them on me at once point, all missing all getting chopped up
As for your hypothetical situation and defence that you are proposing simple thermals with forge can raise acc and damage enough to be able to circumvent your defences. Fortunately the game (dispite people protesting when one build is played well) is pretty well balanced and there is ALWAYS an antithesis available, its just a case of finding it.
**Acceptable "support" responses**
Its your fault
Its your computers fault
Its your ISPs fault
Fine fine... I'll have to bring out my secret weapon.. phase shift! Now AS me muahahahhahahahahahahahha
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Fine fine... I'll have to bring out my secret weapon.. phase shift! Now AS me muahahahhahahahahahahahha
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I see your phase shift and raise you waiting 30 seconds 
**Acceptable "support" responses**
Its your fault
Its your computers fault
Its your ISPs fault
DAMN YOU STALK!!!
* blasts off to space, ala robot henchmen style* "This isn't the last you have seen of me!, unles of course you die between nowand the next time we were supposed to meet, in which case this is.................!"
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Empath on his own = poor.
2 Blasters on their own vs 4 Stalkers = Quite poor.
2 Blaster + 1 Empath vs 4+ Stalkers = Win.
Balancing is completely borked.
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4 stalkers should always kill blasters and empath at similar skilled players
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My money is on the blasters + emp, but it could be a close and interesting fight. If the stalkers all had spines (easiest way to spike), they would probably have good odds.
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as always it depends on the player and tactics involved, empath and blasters wouldnt see my and my stalking partner untill it was too late.
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This is actually what i meant, sorry not to have explained but I was in a hurry. Having stealth+hide+grant invis (stealth cap), heroes with perception cap will only see u in the last 10 feet, not enough for the team to react in time. Stalkers need 2 blows in hide to kill an empath, and besides, an EM stalker (i'm sure at least one of the four will be EM ) will stun the empath in 1 blow. It can just hit the empath without stopping to run with ss on and another one finish the job, it can be another EM or, more suitable, a spines impaling from range and rushing to recover hide. Much that I appreciate ur opinion, NB, I gotta disagree here
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Even heroes with MAXED perception cap cannot see stalkers with hide + Stealth + Invis other except within 10ft. 10 ft is NOT enough distance for the heroes in this hypothetical situation to act in a manner that is anyway threatening to stalkers in said condition.
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Precisely, of course, Im not saying that other team would be powerless against stalkers but it isnt automatically a win scenario for the hero team just because they have clear minds. I got a rude awakening myself once in sirens call when there was a stalker team with grant invis there.. I had 3 clear minds on my blaster and I couldnt see a thing. Almost got a nervous breakdown.
I think you are right SP. Point being other MMOs take this line and it works for them. They balance each toon with RPS, so they they have easy, medium and hard fights vs the other archetypes. Then when they get into a team, thats just transposed up a level and the results are still predictable.
Empath on his own = poor.
2 Blasters on their own vs 4 Stalkers = Quite poor.
2 Blaster + 1 Empath vs 4+ Stalkers = Win.
Balancing is completely borked.