PvP - Could it BE more imbalanced?
By
Aggravator,
Posted on: 2005-12-09 22:26 in Everything about PvP
Its not a question of balance or fair, its a question of fun. I couldnt care less if a game is balanced or not, I base my decision on whether to play on how much fun i am having. This goes for PvP and PvE and every game. If the PvE areas had invisible mobs that either kill you in 1-2 seconds, or shed off a whackload of energy, escape, hide, and repeat, i expect a lot more players would be "whineing" and not many people would be accusing them of "sucking money twanger".
Also, something i havent seen mentioned, is that people pay to play this game, if those people arent having fun then they have every right to make there opinion heard.
My MA IDs:
Fiend Space: 211464
I think dominators need to have tanks hp, and defences, defiance like a blaster with scrapper crits 
Then we would be ok in pvp Not too fussed about AS tho.
/chuckle
Its nearly xmas everyone
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"OMG i press alt+f4 but you dont die??they told me this works for sure!?"
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ROFLMAOWPMP!!!! 
That's the most funny thing ever!
I think the real thing is, people that die complain.
They don't like loosing.
I've never killed anything in PVP, I still go back.
Stalkers are just a fad and will die down as people are now starting to use tactics against them.
(See the Empath bit about them spamming him to stop using Clear Mind 'cause it's "unfair" to them)
No matter what, where you have PVP people will be complaining, 'cause simply, most people don't like loosing & there are a lot of people that play these games that seem to have a god complex.
*shrug*
I've thought up a nice tactic against stalkers which I'll be using tonight, which doesn't require me to see them at all. Dunno if it'll work as it has some major flaws.
I have to agree though.
BaH HamBug!
Piffle Puffs!
& all that.
I am so bored of seeing complaint after complaint about stalkers.
How about complaining that the poor defenders do hardly any damage? I wana splat things too you know!!!!!!
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I think dominators need to have tanks hp, and defences, defiance like a blaster with scrapper crits Then we would be ok in pvp Not too fussed about AS tho.
/chuckle
Its nearly xmas everyone
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Even then you would get beat 
JK
That reminds me, i have a santa hat someplace
My MA IDs:
Fiend Space: 211464
I'm with Tainted Greek and Stalk_obot on this one - they appear to be the ones keeping an open view on this.
This is a matter of pride mostly I think.
The way I see it Stalkers are immensley powerful but at the same time incredibily weak. The first time in Sirens I was ASed several times and thought it stinked.
How could my uber toon be two-shotted so easily!
I could have just given up and complained they were overpowered or I could
make it a challenge to beat them at their own game.
I actually feel Stalkers do bring an excitement and a real sense of danger to a zone.
Im all for keeping them as they are, although the outcry for nerfs says otherwise.
I dont play a stalker btw.
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No matter what, where you have PVP people will be complaining, 'cause simply, most people don't like loosing & there are a lot of people that play these games that seem to have a god complex.
*shrug*
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They prolly go mad when they loose at monopoly as well.
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I've thought up a nice tactic against stalkers which I'll be using tonight, which doesn't require me to see them at all. Dunno if it'll work as it has some major flaws.
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I'm thinking along the same lines, sort of gave up on seeing them coming now.
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How about complaining that the poor defenders do hardly any damage? I wana splat things too you know!!!!!!
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Give us tac nukes for xmas!
My MA IDs:
Fiend Space: 211464
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I think dominators need to have tanks hp, and defences, defiance like a blaster with scrapper crits Then we would be ok in pvp Not too fussed about AS tho.
/chuckle
Its nearly xmas everyone
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Quick someone get him in on the design team!
I like that idea!!!!!!!
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I can out think most of them.
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I think that may be the most inflammatory thing you've ever posted.
Synaesthetix:if your mum wasn't already dead I would go kill her for bringing
you into the world
They have every right to make their opinion heard.
Good.
I've just had my coffe wear off so I am grumpy and just ran out of the will to be hugely constructive. 
Note: You have now made your opinion heard.
Note: It isn't going to change.
Note: Many, many people have pointed out many many times how to get the best out of PVP. You also have the right to ignore them. But then you may find you don't enjoy PVP.
I am not scared of stalkers. I am a defender. I am squishy. I have no intention of changing my build for PVP, I like it how it is.
I recognise that in CoH a team is the intended way to play the entire game. Even if a stalker gets you, your team should be able to deal with him. You don't have a team? Then deal with the fact that a PVP soloer will always be in mortal danger. I've done it - I was as nervous as a long tailed cat in a rocking chair test centre - so I kept moving and all the rest of it as much as possible and I got away with it. I was lucky and also fully prepared to go home or get a team if I kept getting nailed.
PVP is not going to change to make it designed for solo. If you really want that, go and play something else, or just stay out of PVP.
PVP is fun. Nothing comes close to the thrill of having other people after you. Very little puts my pulse up so high so fast. It works like it is supposed to, there are countermeasures and the biggest countermeasure is to have a bunch of mates around you - and you can do that with any AT. A stalker probably won't start on you if it is going to be MAD.... the all stalker teams that will appear eventually will be scary, but guess what? they won't be able to hold, heal or hit at any significant range.
I've had more coffee now and rant over.
OK, lets make 2 things abundantly clear on this list (I've done it elsewhere, but I'll do it here as well).
1. I want PvP to gain on popularity.
2. I don't want anyone (not even stalkers) to be nerfed.
Is everyone clear on these two points?
I got involved in this thread because of the usual badgering and accusations of whining and endevoured to explain the alternate. Naturally my head was promptly jumped on.
TGs and Stalk-obot's defence of stalkers is; they're easy to counter.
My point is; that's true if the RIGHT people are on. Given how quiet the zones are atm that's not always possible. If they get busier then the problem should subside.
I suggested compensating with better/smarter temporary powers that were available regardless of who controlled the zone.
As I have said numerous times I believe any toon versus any other toon should have a chance, even if that chance is nothing more than just getting away.
Anyone want to jump in an explain to me why this is such an unreasonable viewpoint?
(\_/)
(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)
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They have every right to make their opinion heard.
Good.
I've just had my coffe wear off so I am grumpy and just ran out of the will to be hugely constructive.
Note: You have now made your opinion heard.
Note: It isn't going to change.
Note: Many, many people have pointed out many many times how to get the best out of PVP. You also have the right to ignore them. But then you may find you don't enjoy PVP.
I am not scared of stalkers. I am a defender. I am squishy. I have no intention of changing my build for PVP, I like it how it is.
I recognise that in CoH a team is the intended way to play the entire game. Even if a stalker gets you, your team should be able to deal with him. You don't have a team? Then deal with the fact that a PVP soloer will always be in mortal danger. I've done it - I was as nervous as a long tailed cat in a rocking chair test centre - so I kept moving and all the rest of it as much as possible and I got away with it. I was lucky and also fully prepared to go home or get a team if I kept getting nailed.
PVP is not going to change to make it designed for solo. If you really want that, go and play something else, or just stay out of PVP.
PVP is fun. Nothing comes close to the thrill of having other people after you. Very little puts my pulse up so high so fast. It works like it is supposed to, there are countermeasures and the biggest countermeasure is to have a bunch of mates around you - and you can do that with any AT. A stalker probably won't start on you if it is going to be MAD.... the all stalker teams that will appear eventually will be scary, but guess what? they won't be able to hold, heal or hit at any significant range.
I've had more coffee now and rant over.
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Here here
and double here here on teh defender point -
sod thinking stalkers are over powerd gimme some fekkin damage!!!!!
As a dark i can debuff the bejesus outta the villains but can i damage them? can iheckaslike!
Unkillable yet unable to kill (till i ran out of break frees and she got help - dam you Victim - I;m never saving your bahooky from tp foe ever again hurrumph)
Oh woe are the defenders who DO want to PvP, woe are teh empaths who are only popular for clear mind or kinetics for INC dent, woe are the REAL stalkers who're being demonised, woe are us PvP'ers wrongly accused, woe are any who might have had a vaild point somehwere in htis debacle. Woe are MM's who get called useless for PvP, Woe are thee Devs who made said demonic AT, Woe are any in posession of comon sence (Do not enter here - all is lost)
But on a lighter note......
there are 10 shopping days left to Christmas w00t
And i am concerned about my churches Nativity scene - the wee coo seems to be kinda yellow
Do biblical coo's get jaundice or has it had a run in with a stalker too you think?
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1. I want PvP to gain on popularity.
2. I don't want anyone (not even stalkers) to be nerfed.
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If I've picked you up wrongly I'm sorry, though it has read that way on numerous posts i'm afraid.
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got involved in this thread because of the usual badgering and accusations of whining and endevoured to explain the alternate
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The usual badgering? I've said this already you cant back stalkers or PvP'ers into a corner and not expect them to respond which this thread tried to. Stalkers and amny others HAVE explained alternitives and tactics to use but certain posters DONT wish to listen. That is something of a bugbear of mine - folks want to be listened to but wont listen in return. I have taken exception to a couple of comments you have made too Innigo - play fair - they would too. There was some whining there isnt anyother thing to call it - it happened with TP foe now its stalkers.
I dont approve of some players PvP tactics (no matter which AT or side)but then i dont approve of the personal slanging these things alwasy become either, there are bad players no matter the AT.
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I suggested compensating with better/smarter temporary powers that were available regardless of who controlled the zone.
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And a valid idea that is too, but it got lost amoungst the rest of the negativity posted. PvP will never be totally fair - games arent like that it take away the skill.
It still stands though you MUST adapt to teh changes or dont PvP. Stalkers CAN be beaten.
I'm a corruptor and dominator - therefore a squishy - is it fair that heroes go for us first?
There is a plus to every minus in PvP - the trick is finding it.
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As I have said numerous times I believe any toon versus any other toon should have a chance, even if that chance is nothing more than just getting away.
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Its certainly not unreasonable and pray tell how its not the case? Certain AT's will always have a better chance of survival. Also long term or regulat PvP'ers no matter the AT will always have an advantage - its just the way of things.
AS will prolly be fixed to leave a certain ammount of health but.....stalkers arent always alone.
I just wonder who's next for the 'nerf them call'.
Who said it was unreasonable BTW? This post has been the clearest I've read from you and thank-you for it.
To whoever said 'why are there so many threads complaining about stalkers if there isn't a problem with them'?
The reason is that stalkers find it quite easy to kill unsuspecting players. Its a sharp wake up call for them. But if that puts them off then are those really the sort of noobs us PvP'er swant around? People who fall at the first hurdle and give up? The weak? The lame? The meek?
They would just cry again when blasters or controllers started killing them.
The would be like...'Holds are over powered! Neft holds!I got held for 30 seconds and couldn't do anything about it!'
You'd say to them, did you take a break free and they would say that they didn't believe that you should have to take break frees or respec to get some mez protection.
Same with stalkers - get some yellows, some +perception or do one sunshine!
Like I say - stalkers are there to sort the wheat out from the chaff. You cry about them and you know which one you are...
Back to my original point about the person who said that. well I'm sure that many people complain about taxes. Doesn't mean they are wrong and should be abolished. I'm sure many Daily Mail (spit) readers complain about loads of things. doesn't mean we should listen to those thick idiots. Isn't it the daily mail that harps on about how computer games will turn all children into killers? Millions read the daily mail....does that mean they are right?
In conclusion, the majority should not be listened to because the majority are thick as pig poop and don't even know whats good for themselves, nevermind anyone else.
@Sweet Chilli
Ive seen Ice/nrg blasters with good builds doing lousy damage.
Ive seen masterminds who where prime targets cause they knew how to use them. Masterminds can be great.
Ive seen lots of controllers unable to do anything but die.
Ive seen villains rip through lvl50's like a hot knife through butter.
I have never seen a single player that couldnt be taken out.
I have never seen a team that was untouchable.
A Paragon Defender
Once they bring in the 10% rule, Stalkers are going to find it hard to kill pretty much everyone. They will need a second attack power that can remove the last 10% of health, be quick enough to hide/placate and AS again or wait till their target is below 100% health and stood still.
I can see Stalkers approach even if I can't target them and knowing they will not kill me in one shot I'm going to have a heal ready either transfusion or a Insp. They will need to be quick with the second shot or have enough moves (I only ever see their AS) to take me out. Even then my team will come to my aid (I'm very rarely without one).
Not sure if it will affect some Stalkers but definatly the ones that are currently one hit wonders and then dissappear are going to be affected.
If its too hard to remove the last 10% it could be better to reduce to 5%. Will need testing and a discussion.
maybe i should rephrase that.
People have the point to make themselves heard without being insulted or patronised. Not having your coffee yet doesnt exclude you from that. If it's so impossible to give me a polite reply, please dont bother relying at all, I dont come here to be patronised and insulted, i get enough of that at work thanks.
As for PvP being fun, it can be, i used to MUD a LOT and loved the thrill of chasing and being chased. I also played jedi academy and found that to be a load of fun too, although no where near as intense and cut throat as the mudding world (most MUD times my hands would tremble and my heart would pound on hunting and killing a player >). As Innigo said, is it too much to ask for all AT's to have at least a chance to escape?
ps. why mention solo PVP? I ALWAYS look for a team when i PVP
My MA IDs:
Fiend Space: 211464
*yawn*
This is still going in circles.
Some say Nerf Stalkers, others say no Don't Nerf stalkers.
You want unbalanced, try killing something while playing a defender!
From my point of view, all the other AT's should be nerfed and Defenders made better in PVP!
So there! Your arguments are all moot! Now bow to my bubbles!
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If its too hard to remove the last 10% it could be better to reduce to 5%. Will need testing and a discussion.
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I'd say that against a scrapper it would be reasonable, if, after an AS the result was a draw half the time. People will still complain about not being able to see the stalker coming, cant see a solution to that and i cant think of any games which have solved the problem.
BTW, if anyone knows of a multiplayer stealth game which as solved the problem (something like multiplayer thief, i love thief) i'd love to know about it.
My MA IDs:
Fiend Space: 211464
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If its too hard to remove the last 10% it could be better to reduce to 5%. Will need testing and a discussion.
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I'd say that against a scrapper it would be reasonable, if, after an AS the result was a draw half the time. People will still complain about not being able to see the stalker coming, cant see a solution to that and i cant think of any games which have solved the problem.
BTW, if anyone knows of a multiplayer stealth game which as solved the problem (something like multiplayer thief, i love thief) i'd love to know about it.
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Noooo!
Make defender offence better!!!!!!!
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You want unbalanced, try killing something while playing a defender!
From my point of view, all the other AT's should be nerfed and Defenders made better in PVP!
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Maybe if we get the snowball temp power this year we will hit a little harder
My MA IDs:
Fiend Space: 211464
Apologies to Marquand, I was rude... you happened to be in the way when I ran out of patience with a lot of this thread.
I fundamentally disagree that everyone should always have a chance. If my trick is sneaking up and attempting to assassinate you, there should be a reasonable chance that that should work. Not to the one-shot point, but fast enough that you have to be both on full health and react quickly to survive (or have a lot of hitpoints). Similarly, if I am running tactics and have other see-through-stealth buffs/powers and I see the stalker coming when he think he is are safe, I should be able to go 'ready boys?' and have my three blaster mates (who, for the sake of argument, are invisible) smear him across the scenery after I tag him with one of my feeble defender blasts. Or if I am a controller and I get the drop on someone from stealth or otherwise I should be able to hold them long and well enough that I can do a little dance, /em batsmash them and catch screenshots of it before deciding whether or not to kill them. I have my own plans for a couple of surprises I want to try and give people, and I expect to be surprised. Stealth is a good pvp strategy - and the stalker isn't the only one who makes use of it (Ill/* controllers anyone?) On an open plain, in fully balanced teams if such a thing exists (anyone tried hero pentad v villain pentad by the way?), at the same levels, both actual and SK/exemp, then in theory there should be a 50/50 chance either way. But you and I know that isn't going to happen so there will always be individual powers(ets) that mess up other powers(ets) or even ATs (I figure brutes must hate being the target of a siphon speed).
One shotting from full has to go, and it will go - but for now more than that seems to be overkill.
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Apologies to Marquand, I was rude... you happened to be in the way when I ran out of patience with a lot of this thread.
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Accepted.
PS. Marquand is NEVER my real name :P
My MA IDs:
Fiend Space: 211464
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and stormies ruin some peoples experience and regens do for other blah, blah, blah, cry, cry, cry. Plenty of build screw up my stalker and kill it in seconds, I dont whinge because i know I am strong in other areas.
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Where are all the threads about regens and trollers ruining ppls PvP experience?
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I didnt say leave it alone, but the fact is the game devs are so obsesses with tweaking as opposed to fixing the bugs things will get changed and we can do nothing about it, check all the nerfs in the past and ED. The devs dont really listen to us, if they did ED wouldnt ahve happened or would ahve been roled back.
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Regardless what they say ED was about the PvP aspect of the game and I can see why. I can only really speak about regen scrappers but if PvP was going on without ED I can tell you my toon would be almost unkillable. With dull pain running permanently, fast heal and health six-slotted and a big ole Reconstruction in the wings. It'd take three stalkers to bring me down, no tank could touch me. Brutes? Nothing to worry about there.
And that, frankly, wouldn't be right. So whilst the devs might be claiming that ED was nothing to do with PvP (Of course they wouldn't consider lying to the majority of their customers who only PvE to prevent an outcry that the game was being modified because of some game aspect they don't use, right?) the timing and the fact that an awful lot of toons became a lot more squishy suggest otherwise.
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fact is whining about it does nothing so why dont people suck it up and try to enjoy the game?
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See posting concering attempt to shame into silence.
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As for stalkers ruining the game? not nearly as much as incredibly rude people who get upset at being killed and sending offensive and abusive tells.
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They are rubbish, but then you can always chose to ignore them.
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OR people branding ALL players on one AT "noob hunters"
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Did I hit a tender spot 
That's how the AT is coming across, and not just to me. Now stop whining about it and suck it up
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Tender spot? not really as its not applicable to me, I just think its narrow minded and ignorant to issue any kind of blacket statement regarding anyone or anything as you cannot possibly know the people involved to such a degree. I consider such blanket statements bigoted.
Controller posts whould be here if the stalker wasnt, I know my controller is ludicrously strong on pvp and i should imagine when im on my own and have squeezed the life out of a villain over a period of 2-10 minutes depending on the AT, they would consider their pvp experience tainted.
All my posts ahve said the same thing, try to think about PVP, its not the same as PVE, think, talk and have some fun. None of my post have been inflamatory or argumentative. As I have said before, I will talk people through my ATs weaknesses and how best to counter me and help them ease into the PVP game. If someone is new I tell people to go easy on them and we rotate, there is a bad element in all aspecs of the game but I and the rest of the regulars in Sirens do what we can to have fun and make it fun for others.
Beats me why there are so many agressive and argumentative posts for the sake of it, if people are so agressive towards things I doubt that PVP is for them as they will be fuming unless they are winning all the time.
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As I have said numerous times I believe any toon versus any other toon should have a chance, even if that chance is nothing more than just getting away.
Anyone want to jump in an explain to me why this is such an unreasonable viewpoint?
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because its not how the game is engineered or structured. Holds, stuns and immobs would need to go to allow a possibility of escape and as for a battle, an obvious point is almost any melee character Vs an empath. Idealogically speaking there isnt anything wrong with your sentiment but the change in game dynamics and engineering involved is astronomical, it isnt feasably possible on this game, speaking as a developer myself. An entirely new game would ahve to be created for your sentiment to be realised
**Acceptable "support" responses**
Its your fault
Its your computers fault
Its your ISPs fault
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Tender spot? not really as its not applicable to me, I just think its narrow minded and ignorant to issue any kind of blacket statement regarding anyone or anything as you cannot possibly know the people involved to such a degree. I consider such blanket statements bigoted.
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Would you be more comfortable if a labelled PvP novices as "stalker-fodder"? That was the general tone I've been picking up - along the lines of, "if you find stalkers a problem then you obviously don't know what you're doing. I never suggested that stalkers went out of their way to hunt novices, only that their success rate would rise sharply if their target was a Pvp-noob.
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Controller posts whould be here if the stalker wasnt, I know my controller is ludicrously strong on pvp and i should imagine when im on my own and have squeezed the life out of a villain over a period of 2-10 minutes depending on the AT, they would consider their pvp experience tainted.
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The difference between a stalker and a controller is obvious. The latter doesn't kill you instantly. The controller advertises his presence and allows his quarry to know when to down a b/f by holding him.
And I find your suggestion that because ppl are raising issues with stalkers they're not doing it with controllers a little puzzling. People only complain about one thing at a time?
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All my posts ahve said the same thing, try to think about PVP, its not the same as PVE, think, talk and have some fun. None of my post have been inflamatory or argumentative. As I have said before, I will talk people through my ATs weaknesses and how best to counter me and help them ease into the PVP game. If someone is new I tell people to go easy on them and we rotate, there is a bad element in all aspecs of the game but I and the rest of the regulars in Sirens do what we can to have fun and make it fun for others.
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Whilst none of my remarks are aimed at any one person. There are issues that need to be addressed. Remember, not everyone who plays is a regular on these boards. Someone new to a PvP zone may not know they have to enable villain chat first for example, but the list goes on and part of that list is a faceplant out of nowhere? Or a devastating attack followed by a SS away before a counter attack could be launched which happens again and again.
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Beats me why there are so many agressive and argumentative posts for the sake of it, if people are so agressive towards things I doubt that PVP is for them as they will be fuming unless they are winning all the time.
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A false assumption. Whilst I may get passionate about certain things on these boards losing the pvP zone doesn't bother me, and stalkers are nothing more than a minor annoyance.
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because its not how the game is engineered or structured. Holds, stuns and immobs would need to go to allow a possibility of escape and as for a battle, an obvious point is almost any melee character Vs an empath. Idealogically speaking there isnt anything wrong with your sentiment but the change in game dynamics and engineering involved is astronomical, it isnt feasably possible on this game, speaking as a developer myself. An entirely new game would ahve to be created for your sentiment to be realised
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Rubbish. As i've said elsewhere all of this can be overcome with insps and temporary powers, none of which require the game to completely overhauled.
An example of a temporary power (for squishies only) would be a shield that eliminated critical hits. Such a power already exists within the game so I fail to see where a complete restructuring of the game is required.
Keeping on the stalker theme, ditch the IR goggles and stick in a temporary power that gave some warning when a cloaked toon came within a certain range. If they've got yellows then now's the time to down them, if not you've got problems, but either way, if it's a blaster with superguns or a stalker at least you have a chance.
The point I;ve been (obviously) failing to make is that whilst you and TG are perfectly correct in ways in which to counter stalkers those options aren't always available or practical primarily because there aren't enough ppl on atm.
I think the devs know this as well. Do we think tonight's little foray was anything BUT an effort to stir up some interest in the flagging PvP aspect of the game?
The solution to all of this is obvious - have more people on at any one time. But how do you go from a zone with tumbleweeds rolling past to a thriving zone where there's usually a team with the right skillset about?
I personally would go for making sure it's fun from the outset, but that's just me.
(\_/)
(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)
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If you go into PVP upset that someone else doesnt ahve the powers to amke u unbeatable you wont ahve a good time, same as if you are relying on temp powers.
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Jeez, no one's asking to be unbeatable. People are asking to not insta-faceplant because there's a stalker on, their a squishy and a team with the right skillset isn't on at the time.
And yes, I know the one hit, one kill is being looked at. Two hit, one kill might be better, I don't know. We'll have to wait and see.
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No ones asking and NO ONE is unbeatable...fact.
As for one hitting read States post on AS it will get looked at your right in that - still wont make them go away or PvP easier unless folks THINK. 2 hit one kill can be done by other AT's, its FAIRER, remember tho a stalker out of hide is a squishy too.
Oh and its not the AT it is you, 'noob hunter' what a daft thing to say. Get a grip.
Bah humbug again!