PvP - Could it BE more imbalanced?
By
Aggravator,
Posted on: 2005-12-09 22:26 in Everything about PvP
I dont think its so much a question of balance. Much more important than balance is fun.
My MA IDs:
Fiend Space: 211464
I like it how people seem to fail to realize that any old joe can get stealth+invis just from powerpools and be mostly invisible to those of us who don't have IR goggles, lots of yellows, or PBAoE effects.
It's not just stalkers, people. Although I admit, those are more likely to one-hit you, but getting the drop on someone always gives you a significant edge.
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yeah whirlwind allows that as well,although i not know about the snipe since its an interruptible power.
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If you can snipe while whirlwinding THAT is something I'd like to see ROFL. The anatomical implications are already busting my gut. LOL
[/ QUOTE ]You can, IF you remain stationary for the interrupt time of the snipe.
What I find really disappointing in CO's PVP is the gap between PvP and PvE specialized builds.
If you have an uber-PvE build, you won't be very good in PvP (empathy defenders, former fire tanks, etc etc)
If you have an uber-PvP build, you won't be very good in PvE (storm defenders and controllers, SR scrappers).
There are a few builds which could do both well with one build (Illusion, Stone tanks, Bubbles and maybe 2 or 3 others).
And this is a rather poor drawback of PvP zones.
How to solve this ? Maybe by decreasing incoming damage in PvP, because PvP fights, even in groups, usually last 10 seconds or less. The ones who win are the ones who have built the best attack chain (most famous example : TP foe + Stormie Repel). It's very hard to turn the tide of a battle as soon as it's engaged. So by decreasing damage done, we could have the time to counter-attack, to think about another tactic and to have longer fights.
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If you have an uber-PvP build, you won't be very good in PvE (storm defenders and controllers, SR scrappers).
[/ QUOTE ]Bad at PvE? Since when?
Storm was the most unpopular defender set and by far before PvP was introduced. This reason could be enough. But moreover, storm defenders don't have the liability of goods empaths, the astonishing buffs of cinetics and empaths or the amazing debuffs of rad and dark. They have a mix of all those but less powerful.
It's a good set for soloing defenders. But this is somewhere antinomic with the concept of defender, isn"t it ?
It was unpopular due to the fact that it's the hardest to use, but an experienced stormie is at least as useful as a dark or rad, and definetely more useful than an empath.
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Because the game at no point tells them that they need +Perception in PvP, or to keep moving to avoid Assassin Strikes. These are things you quickly discover after repeatedly being oneshotted, and that puts people off of PvP.
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Game gives you enough warning to stay the [censored] out of PvP zones if you don't want to come into conflict with other players, though.
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Thats not the point I made at all. But thanks for using a tired old excuse to win an imaginary argument!
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If you have an uber-PvP build, you won't be very good in PvE (storm defenders and controllers, SR scrappers).
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Since when has SR been uber in PvP???
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If you have an uber-PvP build, you won't be very good in PvE (storm defenders and controllers, SR scrappers).
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Since when has SR been uber in PvP???
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Sorry if Im mistaken but what sort of scrapper was in winning team of the S4 final again? 
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If you have an uber-PvP build, you won't be very good in PvE (storm defenders and controllers, SR scrappers).
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Since when has SR been uber in PvP???
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Sorry if Im mistaken but what sort of scrapper was in winning team of the S4 final again?
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And that means what? The French teams Tank got a shed load of kills, all Tanks are now uber in PvP by your logic???
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If you have an uber-PvP build, you won't be very good in PvE (storm defenders and controllers, SR scrappers).
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Since when has SR been uber in PvP???
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Sorry if Im mistaken but what sort of scrapper was in winning team of the S4 final again?
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The Inv/EM Tank was the Scrapper of that team, the DM/SR was a TP foe bot.
World of Jackcraft.
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It was unpopular due to the fact that it's the hardest to use, but an experienced stormie is at least as useful as a dark or rad, and definetely more useful than an empath.
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I really don't agree. Maybe you have only teamed with bad empaths, I don't know. My max performance is to be the only defender of a 8-men-team in a purple mission and no deaths. I've only seen rad able to do that. Certainly not stormies. It's a great set but it can't reach empathy or rad for me.
Empathy is, in good hands , the best set along with radiation. Not because of his heals. But because of his buffs (though ED hit us bad from this side).
And empathy is, by far, the hardest set to use, to reach its maximum abiilty. It needs constant adaptation, constant rethinking. You can't say "OK first I lay snow storm + freezing rain on every group and then I see what happens".
Everyone can play an empathy defender doing the minimal job (heals). This is OK to handle a team on heroic. But very few have the capacity to take all the strength from the pool, making your team uber like no one. A "normal" empath is worse than every other "normal" defender set (with the exception of Archery and Storm). But when you come to skilled people, skilled empaths are on the top of the table.
For example, back in the I3-4 days, I helped two fire tanks from my friends. Alone, they could herd +4 Freakshows but if it was +5, they couldn't. With me, they managed to herd +6, sometimes +7 ones. Which other defender set could have done this ? Dark, Storm ? No, mobs would have been too powerful to be hit by the debuffs. Kinetics ? With the lack of accuracy on +6 mobs, it could be possible but dangerous. Radiation ? No problem, the debuffs are auto-hit, they stack with each other and are, by far, the most powerful ones. Empathy ? No accuracy check for buffs and heals. This is the reason.
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Thats not the point I made at all. But thanks for using a tired old excuse to win an imaginary argument!
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There are lots of things the game doesn't tell you about, but which are blindingly obvious once you, y'know, open your eyes a little bit.
There are plenty of ways to counter Stalkers, one-hits are being sorted out and so the complaint in this thread, at the end of it all, just comes down to someone being too damn stubborn and pig-headed to adjust their personal tactics.
If that's the case, they should take the damn NPC's advice and stay the hell away from the PvP zones.
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If that's the case, they should take the damn NPC's advice and stay the hell away from the PvP zones.
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I would think that you'd want more people to come into PvP, seeing as the zone are hardly thriving right now. The "Get the hell out of PvP" argument isn't really going to encourage any toe dippers to spec into a PvP build, is it?
The problem as I see it is that in no point do you need +Perception powers in PvE. You don't need to move about all the time to stop yourself being hit. You do in PvP zones, and players failing to do this reinforces the view that Stalkers are "teh ubar". I mean, I'm doing exactly what I'd do in PvE, and I'm getting oneshotted everytime. I can't be doing anything wrong!
A similar thing occurs with Blasters in PvP. Your average PvE Blaster is scrapper fodder, one who knows a bit about PvP is chasing the scrappers around the zone. The trick is educating players while keeping the game fun. Aggressive attitudes don't do that.
Instead of attacking people for saying Stalkers are overpowered, attack the reason that they think it.
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It was unpopular due to the fact that it's the hardest to use, but an experienced stormie is at least as useful as a dark or rad, and definetely more useful than an empath.
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I really don't agree. Maybe you have only teamed with bad empaths, I don't know.
[/ QUOTE ]As my sig says, I have a L50 empath, and that I have played for over 700 hours, So I'd imagine i know empathy set fairly well.
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You can't say "OK first I lay snow storm + freezing rain on every group and then I see what happens".
Everyone can play an empathy defender doing the minimal job (heals). This is OK to handle a team on heroic. But very few have the capacity to take all the strength from the pool, making your team uber like no one. A "normal" empath is worse than every other "normal" defender set (with the exception of Archery and Storm). But when you come to skilled people, skilled empaths are on the top of the table.
[/ QUOTE ] Just using your debuffs the same way in every battle as a storm is just as bad type of defending as only using heals as an empath.
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Which other defender set could have done this ? Dark, Storm ? No, mobs would have been too powerful to be hit by the debuffs.
[/ QUOTE ]Most their debuffs are auto hit, and herding +7's is extreme circumstances, not normal gameplay.
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Instead of attacking people for saying Stalkers are overpowered, attack the reason that they think it.
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Considering that's what I was doing, right until people continuously and repeatedly [censored] about Stalkers being over-powered despite several people including myself pointing out their weaknesses, counters and the fact Devs are working on one-hit kills, that statement is pretty damn irrelevant.
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I really don't agree. Maybe you have only teamed with bad empaths, I don't know.
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As my sig says, I have a L50 empath, and that I have played for over 700 hours, So I'd imagine i know empathy set fairly well.
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Is your level 50 a bad Empath though
There are no good empaths post-ED 
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Instead of attacking people for saying Stalkers are overpowered, attack the reason that they think it.
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Considering that's what I was doing, right until people continuously and repeatedly [censored] about Stalkers being over-powered despite several people including myself pointing out their weaknesses, counters and the fact Devs are working on one-hit kills, that statement is pretty damn irrelevant.
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And now your telling them to get out of the PvP zones, so its not irrelevant. If it was worth saying once, its worth saying again. I don't go into the Player Guides forum, see that someones still putting more than three of one enhancement type in a power, and start telling them to get out of PvE. It doesn't help anyone.
Quite a lot of people don't know about the incoming nerf. Why would they? Doesn't tell you about it ingame. Not everyone reads every thread ever written about Stalkers before coming on here to complain. Doesn't make their problems any less relevant.
What is continually failing to be adressed in posts like this is the inherent gulfs between PvE and PvP. Until someone on the devs side really looks into it, your going to have people complaing about Stalkers. All that you can do until then is repeat yourself.
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And empathy is, by far, the hardest set to use, to reach its maximum abiilty. It needs constant adaptation, constant rethinking. You can't say "OK first I lay snow storm + freezing rain on every group and then I see what happens".
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This is getting well off-topic, so I'll leave the issue at this post, but... as someone who plays both an Empath Defender and a Storm Defender, Storm is far, far more difficult to play well. Good Empathing does mean some quick thinking and judgement calls, and fast reactions, as well as a good attention span if you're going to keep everyone alive and buffed... but it's just nowhere near as difficult as playing a Stormy and trying to be really effective, whilst not annoying everyone else on the team with your powers. Empath powers really don't clash with anything, so it just doesn't involve the level of knowledge of other powersets, and amount of care and thinking, that playing a Stormy does. And as has been pointed out, just slapping down the same debuffs in each fight would be poor Defending, along the same lines of only using your heals, or just leaving heal aura on auto and then blasting for a while. Playing a Stormy well is nothing like that.
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Noone should be one-shotted
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This is something that we'd like to add for PvE and PvP - something along the lines that if a player is at 100% health, a single attack can only bring him down to 10% - or something along those lines.
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This is something that we'd like to add for PvE and PvP - something along the lines that if a player is at 100% health, a single attack can only bring him down to 10% - or something along those lines.
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As long as they can be hit again immediately afterwards, I'm happy for this to be implemented. If the change makes the player immune to attacks from the stalker for a few seconds, I definitely won't be happy.
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Noone should be one-shotted
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This is something that we'd like to add for PvE and PvP - something along the lines that if a player is at 100% health, a single attack can only bring him down to 10% - or something along those lines.
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Sound nice, I have about 10% health left on my blaster in Sirens Call when I get hit with build up and AS. That gives me enough room to react, if Im slow I die If Im fast "defiance" gets the stalker. A defender will have time to use heal or something like that if they are really fast but they will loose if they are slow.
I dont think its a good idea for PvE though, stalkers are in my humble opinion a bit underpowered in PvE. They really need to carry that hard punch. They will turn too much into scrappers with no defences if they dont have it.
Good luck coming up with something good.
50s
controllers: Ill rad , grav rad, fire kin, ice kin
blaster: ice em
scrapper: spines sr
I suggest one EASY thing...
Go build your stalker... and SEE for yourself if they are overpowered!
I'm playing a stalker, and I'm telling you... the one hit kill ONLY happen one the SMALLEST PVe... and the only player you can 1 kill shot (for me atm anyway) are controllers, and even so, I usuaully will have to do another strike...
p.s: even if 1 stalker can't 1 shot kill ya, 2 def will... if 1 isn't enough anymore, we'll come 2 at the same time... doesn't REALLY change that much for us - currently setting up a SG of stalkers ONLY... try to picture a SG or 16 people, stalkers only, 4 teams of 4 stalker, each 4 on 1 specific target... you'll STILL die in one shot... *virtually*... unless the devs nerfs the stalker to LESS than 1/4 of the damage they make, at which point, they might as well get rid of the whole AT... anyway... nerfin the stalkers will only means we'll team with others to get the same effect... and yes, I have been in touch with other stalkers... and we are all levelling at the same time, taking the same powers, and same enhancements... we virtually are identical ... we can clear a +3 level boss in under 15 seconds... nerfing won't bring us much higher in time... right now... consider yourselves lucky, 1 single stalker can miss occassionally... 3/4 at the exact sametime, you WILL die every time (chances of 4 missing at the sametime is .... about the same as winning the lotto and be the only winner i guess :-/ ).
To be honest, the 1 shot kill... IS pretty much the only reason you want a stalker for... it's only purpose and is to give you the edge in a battle over a group of enemies, the stalkers job is to get the lowest ones if alone (be it controller, or healers), or the blasters... or grouping on tankers... it's just the way it is... it was design this way for one reason... nerfing it makes no sence as it's the only advantage they have (unless you sacrifice your second power pool to regeneration so you can wistand a couple more seconds)...
bottom line, stop moaning... get your own stalker, play with it... and see how "easy" it is to even LAND an assassin strike... your own fault for not moving... fair enough the first few times... you probably didn't know... now you do.. stalkers are around and they could be behind you... deal with it!!! if you don't like human challenge, or simply to have to think, go back to pve... :-/