Hopfuly "Going Rogue" = no more levels
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2009-07-27 07:36 in Suggestions and Ideas
"Level debuffing?" What is that? The level system has been in place since the game came out, and I've never thought of it as a debuff.
The AE system removed the need for sidekicks and exemplaring, to be sure, but there are definitely problems with that if it was brought into the real game, and those probelsm are there in the AE system, too.
THe leveling speed increase alone should show you why this might not be a great idea, but it would also create a system where you could street hunt in Atlas Park for your character's entire career, with no need to ever leave or do a mission.
That doesn't even take into account the fact that mobs like Hellions don't scale well as you increase their level. Even at level 10, they're pretty much a joke to fight. At level 50, if they were giving me the same rewards as Malta, why would anyone fight Malta?
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Sounds like a very very bad idea to me, /unsigned.
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
[ QUOTE ]
Sounds like a very very bad idea to me, /unsigned.
[/ QUOTE ]
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
QR
I think the idea is to apply the Giant Monster code to all mobs. So that all mobs would be even cons. If so,
/unsigned.
Not because of the rewards, but because it would suck any and all challenge from the game unless mobs were rebalanced with this in mind.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
[ QUOTE ]
"Level debuffing?" What is that? The level system has been in place since the game came out, and I've never thought of it as a debuff.
[/ QUOTE ]
why do people ask questions they obviously know the answer to in an attempt to try and potray something as confusing. Obviously it wasn't that confusing...you understood it
[ QUOTE ]
The AE system removed the need for sidekicks and exemplaring, to be sure, but there are definitely problems with that if it was brought into the real game, and those probelsm are there in the AE system, too.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't believe that the problems with AE is the leveling system (even if you consider it to be a problem). the "problem" with the AE has to do with accessablity and custimzation, not because everyone can play together.
[ QUOTE ]
THe leveling speed increase alone should show you why this might not be a great idea,
[/ QUOTE ]
it would be marginal...certainly no faster then the using AE. Plus you can already do this with the sidekick system. The only thing that would change is that now you don't have to hunt for a narrow level spread inorder for everyoine to have a sidekick.
[ QUOTE ]
but it would also create a system where you could street hunt in Atlas Park for your character's entire career, with no need to ever leave or do a mission.
[/ QUOTE ]
well you could...but why would anyone want to? it would be painfully slow.
[ QUOTE ]
That doesn't even take into account the fact that mobs like Hellions don't scale well as you increase their level. Even at level 10, they're pretty much a joke to fight. At level 50, if they were giving me the same rewards as Malta, why would anyone fight Malta?
[/ QUOTE ]
their is already a sytem implemented that scales xp based on the difficulty of mobs. a level 10 hellion doesn't/wouldn't give the same xp as a level 10 carnie for example. And, again this is already true with the AE system, it doesn't change the status quo.
[ QUOTE ]
QR
I think the idea is to apply the Giant Monster code to all mobs. So that all mobs would be even cons. If so,
/unsigned.
Not because of the rewards, but because it would suck any and all challenge from the game unless mobs were rebalanced with this in mind.
[/ QUOTE ]
no, that's not the idea. that would be true about street mobs (but there isn't any real street cleaning done any more) missions could still be balanced based upon the same settings they are wnow. You can still fight purples and such. It's just now the people wouldn't be fighting on a team were they were facing +8's because the mission belongs to someone 5 levels higher then they are and it's set at the top level.
Well, to be fair to the OP, Aett, none of your assumptions are necessarily accurate, and since they would be poor game design anyway, they probably wouldn't be.
I think what the OP was listing as "level debuffing" (of doing lower damage if you're lower level and taking more damage) is essentially "giant monster scaling."
If you, in essence, just disabled giant monster scaling, you'd have what the OP is advocating. It isn't a bad system, but as you've said, you'd need some incentive for a level 50 to fight tougher mobs.
Now, keep in mind that a hellion, under scaling- without modification- would still bring in XP measured in the tens (what an even-conned hellion would give you)... while the malta on par with your level may have rewards in the thousands.
That may not be enough to persuade the farmer looking for the easiest path to victory. In theory, you could have the XP still decline as you get above a threshold to nudge them on to greener pastures.
I personally never liked the extreme increase in durability just a few levels bring in the "classic" RPG model, particular now that we do level so fast in CoH. Eliminating the "scaling" or drastically reducing it so that blues and greens remain more viable opponents would be nice... though I know plenty of people that enjoy herding greys that would be upset.
[ QUOTE ]
why do people ask questions they obviously know the answer to in an attempt to try and potray something as confusing. Obviously it wasn't that confusing...you understood it
[/ QUOTE ]
No, I really have no idea what you're talking about here. I really don't understand what point you're trying to make when you're comparing debuffs to leveling. I asked for an explanation, because I really did want one.
[ QUOTE ]
I don't believe that the problems with AE is the leveling system (even if you consider it to be a problem). the "problem" with the AE has to do with accessablity and custimzation, not because everyone can play together
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, it's a little of both. Even using basic mobs, the AE system allows one person to PL 7 others. Your suggestion would make that kind of thing even MORE accessible. It would allow people to do what many think is wrong with the AE system in the outside game world, too.
[ QUOTE ]
would be marginal...certainly no faster then the using AE
[/ QUOTE ]
No, but it wouldn't be slower, either. And with all of the complaints of people about "AE babies" who know nothing about the game on their level 50 characters, I don't think spreading that to the rest of the game world is the best idea.
[ QUOTE ]
well you could...but why would anyone want to? it would be painfully slow.
[/ QUOTE ]
How would it be any slower than running through missions? Everything would be level appropriate for you. You'd never need to leave (cuts down on travel times), the mobs are easy (cuts down on risk), and the stores are centralized (cuts down on travel time more). You can make complete circuits, load up on XP, Inspirations, and enhancements, and then sell as you get back.
Even if you thought that was too slow, you could just head to Perez Park and get the hazard zone spawns there, filled with easy critters, and speed up the process a bit (but zoning back to Steel to sell stuff might slow it down a bit).
[ QUOTE ]
their is already a sytem implemented that scales xp based on the difficulty of mobs. a level 10 hellion doesn't/wouldn't give the same xp as a level 10 carnie for example. And, again this is already true with the AE system, it doesn't change the status quo.
[/ QUOTE ]
1) Yes, but a Hellion would likely be so much easier to defeat than a Carnie that they'd likely be worth the reduced XP.
2) This is assuming that the status quo of the AE system is where it should be (it may be much higher than intended), and bringing it out into the rest of the game world could mess with things even more.
3) How would you really create the feel of high-level content if level 1s can be running right beside you, doing the same thing you are?
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
I realize, Chase_Arcanum, you were posting while I made my post, but as I said above that isn't what I was advocating.
bah not what i ment to do
A suggestion to "remove" the concept of leveling from the Going Rogue expansion content?
Well I must admit that pretty much came out of left field. 
The irony of a suggestion like this is that there's probably a lot of people out there who are wrongfully assuming that (like other games) this Going Rogue expansion is going to ADD maybe 10 more levels to the level cap. It's not going to do that, but the point is most everyone is at least expecting -new- ways to be able to level up with this content. I would imagine the idea of not being able to level up at all is probably just about the furthest thing from most people's minds.
Your forum name certainly lives up to the unconventional concept behind this suggestion of yours... 
EDIT: Upon re-reading your further explanations it looks like you're really asking for some kind of auto-sidekicking thing, or some such. I'm guessing whatever it is you're exactly suggesting is probably far too radical a change to the fundamental power balancing system. It's hard to see how it would be a "trivial" change when I'm not even sure what your goal is with this. Can't being "manually" sidekicked suffice?
Loth 50 Fire/Rad Controller [1392 Badges] [300 non-AE Souvenirs]
Ryver 50 Ele� Blaster [1392 Badges]
Silandra 50 Peacebringer [1138 Badges] [No Redside Badges]
--{=====> Virtue ♀
[ QUOTE ]
why do people ask questions they obviously know the answer to in an attempt to try and potray something as confusing. Obviously it wasn't that confusing...you understood it
[/ QUOTE ]
Because it's your job as a poster to explain your idea adequately, and you didn't. Most of the respondants so far have had to guess what you're talking about, because you assume people know what you meant.
In any case, a fully level-less game is not a bad idea in itself, but only when the game is designed as such from the ground up. If you try to take a game that is 5+ years out from launch and make such a radical change, you will more than likely fail. It's a cinch to assume that most people playing now are comfortable with the system as is, and changing it radically will probably piss them off more than make them happier.
SWG started as a level-less game and they switched it (among with many other things) several years in, and it killed the game's community and population. Doing the reverse is just as bad an idea.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
QR
To be honest, Paradox. I normally don't bag on people about their spelling/grammer and that's not my intention here, but you need to present your idea in a more cogent fashion.
Because I don't think many folks even understand what you're suggesting.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
[ QUOTE ]
No, I really have no idea what you're talking about here.
[/ QUOTE ]
sorry, i miss read what you wrote. It seemed to me like you explained yourself what I meant. What Chase_Arcanum said about removing the base decrease to hit, damage and defenses based upon level is correct. With the exception that everyone would be fighting the same difficulty of mob based upon their level. for example, what is red for me at level 10 is red for you at level 50
[ QUOTE ]
Actually, it's a little of both. Even using basic mobs, the AE system allows one person to PL 7 others. Your suggestion would make that kind of thing even MORE accessible. It would allow people to do what many think is wrong with the AE system in the outside game world, too.
[/ QUOTE ] it doesn't change anything you have always been able to do this since the sidekick system was implemented. in fact it makes it better because what ever the higher level is fighting the lower level is getting xp based upon the same level of con...not plus tens because the lower level is side kicked to someone 4 levels lower then the power leveler.
[ QUOTE ]
No, but it wouldn't be slower, either. And with all of the complaints of people about "AE babies" who know nothing about the game on their level 50 characters, I don't think spreading that to the rest of the game world is the best idea.
[/ QUOTE ]
sure it would be slower. because you have to travel more, you can't cherry pick your mobs and your general assuptions are wrong.
[ QUOTE ]
How would it be any slower than running through missions?
[/ QUOTE ]
because you don't get mission rewards, you get more xp for missions, you can fight harder mobs in missions, mobs are closer together in missions, you get less debt in missions and several other reasons that you should be aware of.
[ QUOTE ]
1) Yes, but a Hellion would likely be so much easier to defeat than a Carnie that they'd likely be worth the reduced XP.
[/ QUOTE ]
If that was true people would be doing that on the AE, but they aren't. Why? because it's losy xp. Easier mobs don't give as much xp and they don't have higher ranking mobs (bosses,elites, Avs ect.)
[ QUOTE ]
2) This is assuming that the status quo of the AE system is where it should be (it may be much higher than intended), and bringing it out into the rest of the game world could mess with things even more.
[/ QUOTE ] except that the people who use AE to farm power level will continue to do so because it will still be much more effective to do so, and power leveling will actually be less effective with this system.I use the AE system quite a lot; you know why? because I can find a team and because I can play with my freinds reguardless of level. And, I know many other people who use it for the same reason. Moving these aspects into the rest of the game sould actually reduce the use of AE not increase it.
[ QUOTE ]
3) How would you really create the feel of high-level content if level 1s can be running right beside you, doing the same thing you are?
[/ QUOTE ] becausae they can't. why do you think AE's ask for only 30+ player and such. the ability to have extra powers and slot them makes you more then power enough.
[ QUOTE ]
QR
To be honest, Paradox. I normally don't bag on people about their spelling/grammer and that's not my intention here, but you need to present your idea in a more cogent fashion.
Because I don't think many folks even understand what you're suggesting.
[/ QUOTE ]
I went back and edited the original post in an attempted to explain better. I have heard the term level debuffing used offten. I tought it was pretty self evident, I'm sorry it obviously was not.
How is this suggestion supposed to make the game better?
Oh yeah. It doesn't.
/unsigned and 2 BIG thumbs down.
He wants the Purple Patch Removed.
He wants it so that damage from higher level enemies is not buffed and attacks against them are not debuffed in both accuracy and damage.
He wants the game to, essentially, go back to the way it was.
-Rachel-
[ QUOTE ]
How is this suggestion supposed to make the game better?
Oh yeah. It doesn't.
/unsigned and 2 BIG thumbs down.
[/ QUOTE ]
I touched on that, but didn't go into detail. First it allows people to play together with out spending time to find side kicks. It also, allows people of large level ranges to play together so it's much easier to find teams. It means it's far less likly to jump on a toon and no longer be able to find a team. It wouldn't take nearly as long to create a team. More playing less standing around waiting. Also, that would most likely keep more players playing longer and make it that much easier to find teams.
It also allows you to be able to play with your super group mates and freinds easier.
It allows higher level players to experince more content.
It would also, slow power leveling down a bit (if that's an issue for you/someone).
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How is this suggestion supposed to make the game better?
Oh yeah. It doesn't.
/unsigned and 2 BIG thumbs down.
[/ QUOTE ]
I touched on that, but didn't go into detail. First it allows people to play together with out spending time to find side kicks. It also, allows people of large level ranges to play together so it's much easier to find teams. It means it's far less likly to jump on a toon and no longer be able to find a team. It wouldn't take nearly as long to create a team. More playing less standing around waiting. Also, that would most likely keep more players playing longer and make it that much easier to find teams.
It also allows you to be able to play with your super group mates and freinds easier.
It allows higher level players to experince more content.
It would also, slow power leveling down a bit (if that's an issue for you/someone).
[/ QUOTE ]
Finding teams is not difficult first of all. Secondly if you are having trouble finding teams, start your own...and thirdly, there is no need to wait around. Go play the game while you are trying to get a team together. This game is very solo friendly.
Problem solved.
One thing I do if I don't really want to start a team. I turn my looking for any flag on and go play. You'd be surprised how well that works.
If you are trying to solve teaming issues (which a lot could be done to make the team building tools a lot better), this suggestion is does not the one.
~ Infinity Heroes ~
Dark Voltage - 50 NRG/NRG/EM Blaster
Shure Shot - 50 Arch/NRG/MM Blaster
Silent Shadow Blade - 50 Katana/SR/BM Scrapper
Uphir - 50 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How is this suggestion supposed to make the game better?
Oh yeah. It doesn't.
/unsigned and 2 BIG thumbs down.
[/ QUOTE ]
I touched on that, but didn't go into detail. First it allows people to play together with out spending time to find side kicks. It also, allows people of large level ranges to play together so it's much easier to find teams. It means it's far less likly to jump on a toon and no longer be able to find a team. It wouldn't take nearly as long to create a team. More playing less standing around waiting. Also, that would most likely keep more players playing longer and make it that much easier to find teams.
It also allows you to be able to play with your super group mates and freinds easier.
It allows higher level players to experince more content.
It would also, slow power leveling down a bit (if that's an issue for you/someone).
[/ QUOTE ]
Finding teams is not difficult first of all. Secondly if you are having trouble finding teams, start your own...and thirdly, there is no need to wait around. Go play the game while you are trying to get a team together. This game is very solo friendly.
Problem solved.
One thing I do if I don't really want to start a team. I turn my looking for any flag on and go play. You'd be surprised how well that works.
[/ QUOTE ]
I do turn my flag on and I hate creating my own because it takes so long and would rather use the waiting time to do other things in in real life so I can actually play longer (as I have other responsiblities). I'm glad you never have a hard time finding a team. however, there is a significan't portion of players that do. Particularly certain servers, times of the day/night/morning and level ranges. As such problem not solved.
I actually LIKE to solo. And sometimes a mission will be just a little too tough to handle. But I don't want to drop it, so I wait a level or two so it becomes easier.
Your suggestion, if I understand it, would eliminate that. If they conned yellow when I got the mission, they'd still con yellow even ten levels later.
Not A Good Thing!
[ QUOTE ]
I actually LIKE to solo. And sometimes a mission will be just a little too tough to handle. But I don't want to drop it, so I wait a level or two so it becomes easier.
Your suggestion, if I understand it, would eliminate that. If they conned yellow when I got the mission, they'd still con yellow even ten levels later.
Not A Good Thing!
[/ QUOTE ]
No, you could still set your difficulty at what level you desire. However, when teaming everyone would be fighting the same difficulty reguardless of their level. if on heroic everyone fights white/yellow cons (or higher if the mob is a righer rank lt, boss ect.), if the dificulty is lower all mobs would spawn lower, if the higher dificulty they spawn higher.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How is this suggestion supposed to make the game better?
Oh yeah. It doesn't.
/unsigned and 2 BIG thumbs down.
[/ QUOTE ]
I touched on that, but didn't go into detail. First it allows people to play together with out spending time to find side kicks. It also, allows people of large level ranges to play together so it's much easier to find teams. It means it's far less likly to jump on a toon and no longer be able to find a team. It wouldn't take nearly as long to create a team. More playing less standing around waiting. Also, that would most likely keep more players playing longer and make it that much easier to find teams.
It also allows you to be able to play with your super group mates and freinds easier.
It allows higher level players to experince more content.
It would also, slow power leveling down a bit (if that's an issue for you/someone).
[/ QUOTE ]
[NOTE: Please do not use red text to respond if you choose to do so. It is difficult to read against both of the default backgrounds]
I think you have a solution looking for a problem.
Why do you need to spend time looking for sidekicks? I start my search by looking for characters close to my level, and then widen as I go. If I wind up on team with more lower level characters, I can exemp down. The system does work both ways. This goes for supergroups and friends, too.
"More waiting, less playing," is a choice on your part. The absolute longest I spend forming a team before moving on to the next mission is five minutes. If I don't have the full eight, I don't have the full eight. I start the next mission with six, or four, or even two. Between missions, when folks are leveling or selling, I send out more invites. The missions will still scale for whatever size team I happen to have, even if that team consists of two people. During the mission, when the team needs to rest, I send out another wave of tells after using the search feature. This may result in people joining mid mission. So what? I have never understood the obsession with having the full eight before even getting started. (protip: Smaller teams mean better drops for all, larger teams mean faster xp for all. The full eight is not always the most desireable team.)
How does your idea allow "higher level characters to experience more content?"
You have specifically said that your idea is NOT to implement the Giant Monster code across the board, but to, in effect, roll back the Purple Patch, making it so that it is easier to hit higher level enemies, and making it so that higher level enemies don't hit you as hard. This would slow down leveling how?
New story arcs coming soon (ARC IDs will be aded when I finish the arc):
So, you want to join the Hellions? (level 1-14 Villainous arc)
Sparks & Steel (level 5-20 Heroic arc)
and
So you want to join the Skulls? (level 1-14 Villainous arc)
I think something should be done about the horribl accuracy and endurance drain at low levels. Missing and waiting on rest to recharge is no kinda fun.
Also, the idea of street mobs being like GMs as in they all are automaticly +1 to whoever is attacking them is a good idea IMO. I this combined with higher XP/droprates for street sweeping could add another option to the game. As is, noone will ever street sweep with me 
My hope/suggestion is that the going rogue expansion will eliminate the level debuffing. The game functions better, is more social, and more immersive when everyone is fighting with the same base abilities and "strength" is set apart through power selection and enhancements.
Levels for progression purposes is fine, but the side kick system needs to be placed and all street mobs should be even cons and mobs in missions should be the same difficulty for each player reguardless of player level.
At the very least all new content should be coded with this in mind.
Edit to clear up. By level debuffing I mean the decrease to hit, damage and defenses based on level difference. I'm suggesting it should be removed based solely on player level. However, if your fighting a yelow,orange,red con it (the con/mob) would still have the same bonuses as it does currently. The color con would no longer be based on "level" though. What is a red con for me at level 10 would be red for you at level 50. Everyone on a team would be facing the same color cons, reguardless of their level. The mission difficulty would be set at the same level for everyone on the team.
It should allow people to play together with out spending time to find side kicks. It also, allows people of large level ranges to play together so it's much easier to find teams. It means it's far less likly to jump on a toon and no longer be able to find a team. It wouldn't take nearly as long to create a team. More playing less standing around waiting. Also, that would most likely keep more players playing and make it that much easier to find teams.
It also allows you to be able to play with your super group mates and freinds easier.
It allows higher level players to experince more content. This should allow for: