Who else HATES masterminds?
By
Alexandria2000,
Posted on: 2009-07-26 01:19 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Wah.
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I second this mockery of "pain"!
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
So I'm supposed to just deal with missions taking 20 minutes longer than usual? Ok then.
People still herd? And on a Brute, no less? I've never been a huge Mastermind fan, but playing to herding strategies was always tacky to me - especially when it's redside. If you've got a Brute and a Mastermind at the same time and you're not steamrolling, you're doing it wrong.
Storm Summoning is great because it makes you better than everyone else in the game. - Camma
Knockback is mitigation. It won't be removed just because meleers ***** and moan. - Chaos Creator
Shouldn't the MM be in charge of the agro moreso than the Brute? I was under the impression that the MM is the redside analogue to the Tank.
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So I'm supposed to just deal with missions taking 20 minutes longer than usual? Ok then.
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Ummm... play with people who know how to play??
I'm sorry, but you don't play redside very often. Since when do brutes NOT herd?
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Edit for clarity: Sorry, I realized later that herd is not the correct word to use and I was thinking more of "jump into a mob and grab all the aggro so they bunch together into melee range". Since most people aren't bothered to read past the first page, I figured I'd add this edit in here.
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They want the attention to keep fury up, and especially for a SS brute they want as many enemies as possible to get hit with footstomp. When the MM ruins that, it's just me running around with almost no fury tracking down enemies one or two at a time. Am I totally missing something here?
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Wah.
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I second this mockery of "pain"!
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Third. Motion passed!
*bangs gavel*
Session adjourned!
Taking Alpha =/= Herding
Taunting enemies and attacking enemies builds fury too, ya know.
I think what he meant was that one shouldn't need to herd with a Brute, but just charge on in and keep moving. Fury will build as the mission progresses because, ultimately, it shouldn't drop between groups.
A MM that is poorly played is the bane of many ATs. An AoE-centric Brute is certainly one of them, but any well played MM is perhaps one of the best things on a team...
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Shouldn't the MM be in charge of the agro moreso than the Brute? I was under the impression that the MM is the redside analogue to the Tank.
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This was the design concept way back in the beginning, but, thanks to the pseudo-gauntlet given to brutes along with their taunt auras, the aggro management role is pretty solidly within the confines of the Brute AT. MMs can still absorb alphas reasonably well, but absording alpha takes about as much aggro capability as walking into a room without stealth on.
Snippet:
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MMs can still absorb alphas reasonably well, but absording alpha takes about as much aggro capability as walking into a room without stealth on.
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Point taken.
Eh, I guess herd isn't the correct word to use, so sorry if I confused people. I just charge right into the middle of a mob and wait for them to all come within melee range and then start the AoEs.
And the problem is I have never seen a good MM. Honestly, how CAN they be good I guess is what I'm getting at? All they can do is attack or not attack, they have almost no control over what their pets do, and the pets like to knock the crap out of a mob and send them flying. The only good thing they do is heal and buff.
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So I'm supposed to just deal with missions taking 20 minutes longer than usual? Ok then.
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Or solo. But I've only rarely had gross amounts of poorly managed knockback add that much time to a mission. It's hardly ever bothered me even when lumbering around with a stone tank. And most of those rare instances involved kins with Repel rather than, say, any Energy Blast users, PBs, Stormies, Bots MMs, or FFers.
And I rarely dip into MMs myself and obviously can't speak for anyone else who picks them, but I usually pick them for the pulse rifle. If there were a full pulse rifle set for Corruptors or better yet Blasters I would take it there instead.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
You must be teaming with bad players, maybe AE babies.
Why don't you try playing a Mastermind yourself and see if you can do better?
QR
*Loads Bats/Tarps MM*
*Bots!*
Drones: Life for Aiur~! <3
Protectors: Drop your weapon! You have fifteen seconds to comply!
Assault: I see you have an appetite for destruction...
*TeamTP into mob*
Bots: CONSTRUCT MORE PYLONS!! *Beam-spam*
*TRAPS!*
Yes, you're playing with bad players. Or unlucky players. Or both! Usually, the only thing leaving the blast zone is runners, and they shouldn't get too far from Thugs, Mercs, or Bots (Ranged pets). Although many MMs don't opt for the "drop in unannounced" play-style.
But yeah, I can see the Bruiser causing mischief...when he isn't rock spamming everything...
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QR
*Loads Bats/Tarps MM*
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I totally want both a Bats primary and a Tarps secondary now. Your top tier pet would be Batman, then you could lay down some canvas while he beats everything into submission. It would be glorious.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
The Bat is copyright. We gonna git sued!
It'd be like...
-Bats-
1) Throw Bat
1) Bat Patrol (Summons 1-3 small, angry bats)
2) Throw Two Bats
6) Equip Bats (With baseball bats)
8) Throw A Lot of Bats
12) The Man Bat (Summons 1-2 living baseball bats)
18) Belfry (Summons bat horde...our wings will blot out the sun!)
26) Summon Cowl Guy (Summons an overweight basement dweller in black spandex)
32) Little League (Equips bats with baseball helmets)
-Tarps-
1) Tarp (Like Ice Slick. Except...not slick...mostly for show)
2) Wet Tarp (This one's slick. Better than that one^)
4) Picnic Tarp (Gradual regen. Very filling. Chance to get overrun by ants)
10) Acid Tarp (Induces vomiting, even to yourself)
16) Construct Tarp Cottage (+DEF, immobile, easily smashed)
20) Fish Tarp (For filleting, bonus damage to fish [I'm comin for ya Barracuda!])
28) Choking Hazard (Tarp Garrote, strangles one foe. No effect on robots)
35) Tarp Mine (Tarp is a rare mineral. Digs a hole, where you find money!)
38) Detonation (Throw tarp on foe, light it on fire. Caution: Highly flammable!)
We'll need a new emote. Running away waving your hands trying to protect your head.
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Eh, I guess herd isn't the correct word to use, so sorry if I confused people. I just charge right into the middle of a mob and wait for them to all come within melee range and then start the AoEs.
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I'd rather like you to expound on this for a bit, if you would. Are you not attacking (or Taunting - you silly brute!) at all during this period, or are you actively trying to manage aggro at this point? If the former, then that can be a huge issue. If the latter, we move on to part B of my response.
What kind of MMs are you frequently playing with? Going purely off memory here, but the only ones that should be giving you any serious grief at all are Bots/* or */Storm masterminds, and in the latter case (there's not a lot to be done in the former, sadly), that's entirely poor play on their part (or part of an ingenious aggro-management strategy in my case - but I'm CRAZY! 
). And maybe the occasional */Traps and */Forcefield. Other then that, though, I think the majority of Mastermind sets don't spread things out all that far when the pets lay into things (Thugs does predominately knockdown, though the Arsonist Burn patch may screw things up - the Bruiser got fixed [HAHAHaaa, fixed!] lately to only provide Knockdown; Ninjas are mostly KD as well I thought, as is Necromancy [though Necro gets a few Immobilizes with KB-protect as well]). Key point: What exactly are you encountering that is leading to your misconception about the Mastermind AT?
Would like to clarify I only bolded that last section to highlight the TL;DR question. 
I tend to ramble and lose my point amidst clarifications of what I mean, and am really curious about the methods involved to create your current issue.
(WARNING: I am by no means an expert on anything but rambling and sleeping.)
EDIT: My bad. Mercs has more KB potential then I thought, but I was pretty well spot-on with Necromancy and Ninjas. Thugs has less KB then I thought, with the only 'scatter' effect now being purely in Fire Bomb from the Arsonist (or is it the Molotov? I forget). Three out of five do no or minimal KB (with one doing an occasional scatter), one only has it significantly on one pet (Merc's Commando), and the last is KB heavy (Robotics).
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Taking Alpha =/= Herding
Taunting enemies and attacking enemies builds fury too, ya know.
I think what he meant was that one shouldn't need to herd with a Brute, but just charge on in and keep moving. Fury will build as the mission progresses because, ultimately, it shouldn't drop between groups.
A MM that is poorly played is the bane of many ATs. An AoE-centric Brute is certainly one of them, but any well played MM is perhaps one of the best things on a team...
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This. A Brute is not meant to be played like a Tanker.
And in fairness to the OP, I am aware that bots in particular generate a lot of knockback when they attack. If you happen to be playing with a bots Mastermind who doesn't know how to manage their KB, well that's a problem with the MM player and not the archetype.
I've played a lot of KB-heavy characters, a bots MM included, and I always make it *my* responsibility to chase down and kill mobs that I scatter. If my character attacks something and it runs from the group at large, I neither need nor want a meleer chasing after it - rest assured, I will get it. Killing everything you personally attack is, IMO, just good manners.
Storm Summoning is great because it makes you better than everyone else in the game. - Camma
Knockback is mitigation. It won't be removed just because meleers ***** and moan. - Chaos Creator
MMs are easily the most misunderstood AT in this game.
Until you play one at least into 30s you have no idea. And not PL'd to 30 either, the early game is needed to learn to control the pets.
How does a heavy KB MM co-exist with a brute? There has to be give and take. And some maturity. Trade off being the alpha collector, it doesnt have to be the brute, everytime. MM's that learn to hold back and learn to play clean up. Then the next group, they lead with a taunt to collect the alpha and the brute plays clean up. Thats how you steamroll.
If you are a brute thats only happy being the center of attention everytime, and need to footstomp in nice concentric circles - ALL THE TIME-then you need to learn how to play nicely with others.
-Largo
Founder of A.G.O.N.Y. Supergroup on Victory
Member of Thought Sanctum VG on Victory
Member of St0rm Batallion SG on Guardian
Seriously, get over yourself. Just because you've played with a couple bad MMs, does not mean the whole AT is bad. I've played with a lot of moronic brutes that were a detriment to the team, does that mean that ALL brutes are worthless?
to the OP
I use a playstation 2 type controller with a small trackball mounted on the top. I play the game like its san andreas. too bad I cant steal cars. <GTA was what got me interested in cox>
Jumping, maneuvering, controlling powers, ive seen a great deal of people that use keyboards to play. Iv'e seen their reaction time compared to mine. Keep in mind I have nothing against useing, keyboards, or those nifty keypads, I just tend to outrun everyone that does.
A reasonable size mob <not usually what I deal with> works well with the MM Brute combo... also depends on the brute.
as a brute, tank, and scraps; Ive played with team mates that use kb. because of my response time, and my movement speed, I can chase the enemies as they fly thought the air, and if it wasnt for the unrealistic and frustrating movement penalties for useing powers, I would be riping them to shreds AS they flew through the air...while calling them names... Just my playstyle I guess...
several factors for the Brute MM combo consist of Who and what you and your team mate are playing with and the lvl of skill/communication.
voice chat helps alot.
hehehehe <3 claw brutes already!
Ignoring anyone is a mistake. You might miss something viral to your cause.
Oh. I thought this was going to be a thread about not liking playing masterminds.
You know not all MM pets send stuff flying, right?
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
(qr)
If you are on a team and things are not working the way you want them to, you need to either adjust your playstyle or find a new team. Insisting that people change the way they play so that you can do things your way isn't going to work.
You're way isn't necessarily the most efficient. Even if it was, many people just don't care about efficiency beyond a certain point.
Display some adaptability, or make your own teams where you can be The Boss. Some people like that kind of thing, I guess.
Yeah, not too sure where to post this, but it's going here.
"
Me as brute: *gathers up nice hoard of enemies (EDIT: NOT HERDING, MAKING SURE THE MOB IS ALL WITHIN MELEE RANGE FOR EVERYONE TO USE THEIR AoEs!) for a big footstomp*
Mastermind: "Attack, my minions!"
Mob: *goes flying 5 million feet in every direction possible*
Me as brute: ">
Every single time I team with a MM this scenario happens and I just don't feel like playing anymore. Seriously, I can probably down a bunch of insps and solo 3 more mobs in the time it takes them to track down all the enemies they scattered. Bots MMs are especially bad at this, and 90% of the MMs have to be bots for some reason. And then because they aren't paying attention to who their minions are attacking, they end up aggroing another group. Does anyone else feel my mastermind pain?