How many new players have to complain ...

The short answer is probably that this game has so many other endurance-manipulating mechanisms that a zero-recharge rest would trivialize many of them. Its unclear what that does to things like endurance drain, for example. It also significantly alters the value of endurance reduction enhancements and recovery boosts, especially for soloers. Such a change would require a significant amount of thinking and testing for collateral effects, which is not the sort of change the devs like to do without a massive payoff for it, which this change does not appear to have.

I can see the devs pondering that. I have a hard time seeing you pondering that. Rest's interrupt makes it nearly impossible to use in combat, even if you managed to do it it applies extreme defense and resist debuffs that will get you killed.

In the end, rest just makes the downtime periods shorter while all the tools you noted allow you to simply keep going without having to stop for much longer if at all. Builds with such tools will always have an advantage.

I seen many ice tanks with perma horafrost, that requires a lot of recharge, enough to make Rest be up every time it's needed, I still don't see them forego Energy Absorbtion and Stamina just because they can rest whenever they feel like it.

I run with a WP/SS Tank on freedom, I barely have any issues and so far I was able to take about 10 direct blasts from the Ritki ships that showed up in SC yesterday on Freedom and get a couple good hits in before it ended up moving faster than I could catch up with it. I rarely run out of endurance and if I do start I just use my jab over and over till my end builds back up then go all out again.
But yeah, we have GARBAGE for accuracy...
I'm currently level 26 right now, and was able to hit (every time with no inspirations) a level 33 lieu over and over till he was dead (the xp gain... 114xp wtf?) but yet when I attack something my level I have about a 60-70% miss rate (thank you herostats) and its just pathetic, even with 3 slots a piece of just SO Accuracy I still miss like crazy.

These claims are simply not credible, I'm afraid (aside from not running out of endurance on a Willpower tanker).

They are credible cause its happened, several times where I would even miss a level 10 3 times in a row. Accuracy needs a tweaking. and I just recently got fly, so sometimes I could hit the ship. other times I was chasing it down. Rise to the Challenge is a good skill (especially when fully 6-slotted with SO's of nothing but heals.) so Yeah, I can take some major hits and keep on movin.

The first 3 SOs get you to 95% enhancement. The second three SOs, due to the diminishing returns curve, get you another 5%. Further, RTTC does not do anything against incoming damage; it boosts your regeneration rate, proportional to the number of enemies within its aura - and when chasing down a dropship, you have at most one enemy boosting RTTC.

It would be wrong to say that this conversation is above your level, because it is precisely at your level that any changes intended to improve the new player experience should be aimed. Just be aware that, based on what you have said so far, there are many things you have yet to learn.

I honestly got nothin much to learn, and I being one who has been around for awhile and just recently started using the forums do know quite a bit about how builds should be made. The ritki Dropship I did not say I destroyed, Nor did I say it could not kill me, I said I took 10 good blasts from it. You read too much into a post in a vain attempt to troll it.

You say this proving you are clueless about ED.

And then you say this which your earlier statement flat out contradicts.

I'd love to take a look at that herostats log and see a screenshot of your build, if possible.

What I read was the part where you six-slotted RTTC with Heal SOs. I assumed from this that you were a new player who didn't know how Enhancement Diversification scales work. I stand corrected: you are a veteran player who doesn't know how ED scales work, or doesn't care. I'm not sure whether this reflects better or worse upon you.

But now I'm being baited into a fight I'm really not interested in.

Regarding the actual topic at hand: Scaling endurance costs to normalize DPE seems like a good idea, as does improving Brawl. Reducing the recharge of Rest, due to its many other limitations, wouldn't obviate other HP/End recovery tools; as others have said, past a certain point, just activating Rest is enough of a drag that you'd rather use the other tools available to you.

I've become used to the endurance issues of tanks before SOs, but I have found them offputting. On the other hand, my first character was a Tank and I played her mostly solo, so I never knew how bad off I was and consequently was never bothered.

Well currently however I tend to use the AE to put my build up against several minions, bosses and AV's to always see what takes the most work and what needs improved, Accuracy is a big thing with some of it but its still doable
(the arc is not published in the AE nor will it ever be, its set to 50-54 with all Characters within set on Medium difficulty, I've been thinking of setting it to hard just to see if I can handle it.)

This is so over-the-top impossible that you must have one or more typos in there.
You were able to consistently hit a +7 lieutenant and defeat him alone?
You have a 60-70% miss rate against even cons when everyone has *base 75% accuracy* with no enhancements slotted?
Does not compute.

By that standard my lvl 1 blaster can take an alpha better than my Ice Tanker.

*blink*

*blink*

Not really sure what to make of that response.

If I read it correctly your saying that having rest with no recharge (but still all of the crippling penalites) would cause game balance issues.

Um . . . how? If being able to rest whenever you are not fighting instead of having to wait for your bars to regenerate slowly is unbalancing that would mean that speed boost is the most broken mechanic ever to grace the game.

Your example of what that would do to endurance drain I think would be a moot point. Why the heck would you try and rest when critters are actually attacking you. Due to the massive defense and resistance debuff's its basicly a death sentance. So who really cares how it would effect endurance drain. You would be dead before you would find out.

Now common sense would dictate some kind of time would have to elapse between the last combat act you did/recieved and the activation of rest but thats about all I think.

Sorry it just disturbs me when someone who has the ear of the devs and so much of the forums respect posts a response like this. In short what you said boiled down to "It's fine the way it is so deal with it." My tap in the kitchen may leak a bit which does not cause me any real incoveniance but you know what? I still take the time to fix it.

Levels 1 to 10 are not too bad. Levels 11 to 20 are for most players the most painful in the game. IMO due to damage per endurance issues they are even more painful for tanks. Many of you veterans forget too easily the days when you were a noob and throw out responses that basicly equal "Deal with it and learn how to play the game."

The problem with that attitude is that many new players end up with a crippled build that they are forced to grind through the worst levels in the game with till they get to 24 and then they burn one of their only 3 respecs. Yes they can use their second build option to essentially give them a 4th chance and could be used at level 10 but often somewhere between levels 10 and 20 they use this and again make mistakes because they are new, or they simply find out late about stamina and use that build to fit it in because no where in the early levels is their a sign saying "You MUST take the fitness pool if you wish the majority of your characters to have the ability to function for more than 30 seconds of combat."

So my final comment is as follows.

Just because you had to deal with it does not mean a new player today has to deal with it. Where would we be in this world if our ancestors had that mentality?

um, 75% accuracy means you hit 75% of the time in the long run.

This.

It's 106 miles to Grandville, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and we're wearing faceless helmets

... Hit it ...

You aren't familiar with the streak breaker, I take it?

I think he is not familiar with many many things.

1. The fact that I have questions about making Rest zero-recharge does not imply any of the gibberish you've stated above ("It's fine the way it is so deal with it"). In fact, I've suggested more than once that endurance costs need to be looked at, especially across archetypes.

2. The fact that I actually suggested an option to provide zero-endurance combat options in this very thread should have been a bigger and less easy to miss hint.

3. There are lots of things that are balanced for buffs that are not balanced for solo players of all archetypes. That's why we aren't all walking around with instant healing and elude as inherents.

4. Since the point of discussion is not endurance costs across all levels and all players, but more focused on endurance costs at lower levels for less experienced players, I think it is relevant that zero-recharge rest can be trivially used in between fights providing an option for especially solo players to engage anything so long as it cannot defeat them within the scope of a single spawn. Since the *actual* balancing of the game isn't around what the player can defeat singularly (most of the time) but rather how much they can defeat sustainably this is an important factor to low level balance. Its triply important because the devs may have factored in the endurance bottleneck implicitly when they datamined player progression and altered the XP tables. If zero-recharge rest boosts the performance of enough players, it will skew those datamining numbers. Eventually, that *will* force an XP alteration. Not "may." Will.

5. Separate from the balance issues, we may not want to create situations where the recommended way to deal with a high-order threat in a mission (like say the end of mission boss) is to engage for ten seconds, run away, rest to full, and repeat. Before you say that's silly of course its silly but that's the point: if the system rewards that type of behavior, it can inadvertently encourage it, and with it all the baggage that comes from unrealistic expectations that surround it. This is a lesson I really hope the devs do not need to learn again.

If you have logs of a level 26 missing a level 10 three times in a row without being debuffed or the level 10 being *highly* defense buffed, post logs. That would be consistent with a bug in the streakbreaker.

Anything short of actual logs, however, is simply going to be dismissed, and with good reason. Every time such logs are requested, they are virtually never actually produced. I'm very willing to investigate *any* accuracy error in the game that can be substantiated, but none have been in a very very long time**. Since it is a trivial matter to produce chat logs (even after the fact, since /copychat pulls the last 1000 entries) it would not be difficult to generate these logs the next time such an occurance happens.



** By that I mean accuracy issues that were not quickly acknowledged and addressed by the devs. No unacknowledged once have been discovered to my knowledge since the luck/insight inspiration issue.

Um, Stygian Circle? That's two levels after stamina(and it also means stamina is next to worthless for a WS).