Numerically, why pick Regeneration over Willpower?
By
AgentMountaineer,
Posted on: 2009-07-23 10:12 in Scrappers
I've played many many Regens and WPs. In my honest opinion, for survivability, Regen is the way to go. It gets a 40% increase to HP which I have never really found that hard to perma. WP only gets a 20% increase to HP. WP does have more defense and resistance, though. Recon, DP acting as a heal, IH and MoG for the alpha/ohsh!t. If used correctly, you'll rarely face plant. Now gives us back toggle IH and we can stop debating! lol
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Willpower seems superior to Regeneration in every way. Why pick Regeneration over it for numbers sake?
1) Willpower RTTC and Regeneration Integration assuming facing one target are the same. However, RTTC pulls ahead when faced with multiple targets.
2) Willpower gets a permanent 30% HP from High Pain Tolerance and it gets a +Res All. Regeneration gets Dull Pain which needs a lot of slotting to get perma and you might hit the cap.
3) Willpower gets Smashing/Lethal/Psionic Resistance and Defense. Regeneration gets Instant Healing while good is a 90 sec duration with a 10 min 50 s recharge... so WP gets all those goodies everytime and Regeneration gets it approximately 35% of the time with slotting. In fact, it could be argued WP might be more survivable even when Regen has IH.
4) Regeneration has Reconstruction but even with that the mitigation is only approximately once every 30 seconds vs WP's constant mitigation.
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*sigh*
I think I'd bet that a thread containing this very subject comes up more than once a week. Maybe on average, once a week. It's getting ridiculous.
I have an IO'd to the gills Fire/Regen which is quite powerful, and I've often outperformed /WP toons that thought they were so great. I'll tell you the biggest difference. Walk into a PvP zone with a /WP and then with a /Regen and tell me which one you think is going to help you live longer. Although, at the highest level of PvE (with IO's), a /WP is likely going to outperform a /Regen because of the multiple layers of mitigation. I personally like having 3 "Oh ####" powers instead of one "this could get rough" power.
Also, with Katana, Broadsword, or even Dark Melee, you get a lot of damage mitigation in your attacks. Katana and Broadsword both provide knockdown/knockup, as well as having Parry, which can get you upwards of 30% melee defense with double stacking (not hard to do). Dark Melee hits opponents with a severe -ToHit debuff, which is, in essence, giving you a higher defense to that enemy. Go roll a Katana or Broadsword with /Regen, IO him out, and tell me that it's not one of the stronger characters you have.
On a related note, maybe we should just compile opinions on the /WP vs /Regen debate and then make it a sticky at the top of this thread. Or just pro's and con's of each set.
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Willpower seems superior to Regeneration in every way. Why pick Regeneration over it for numbers sake?
1) Willpower RTTC and Regeneration Integration assuming facing one target are the same. However, RTTC pulls ahead when faced with multiple targets.
2) Willpower gets a permanent 30% HP from High Pain Tolerance and it gets a +Res All. Regeneration gets Dull Pain which needs a lot of slotting to get perma and you might hit the cap.
3) Willpower gets Smashing/Lethal/Psionic Resistance and Defense. Regeneration gets Instant Healing while good is a 90 sec duration with a 10 min 50 s recharge... so WP gets all those goodies everytime and Regeneration gets it approximately 35% of the time with slotting. In fact, it could be argued WP might be more survivable even when Regen has IH.
4) Regeneration has Reconstruction but even with that the mitigation is only approximately once every 30 seconds vs WP's constant mitigation.
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If you have to ask then you'll never understand
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I think Regen is less powerful on teams because any toon that has healing capabilities will probably heal you as you're clicking Reconstruction/Dull Pain/Instant Healing/MoG. This puts your clickies down for the count, and has wasted your Defender/Troller friends endurance. Not very useful.
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However if you have a forcefielder, or the empath puts fort on you. Even 25% defence not onoly doubles you own mitigation through regen (which is matched by a /Wp increase), but the mitigation your own click heals brings is doubled as well.
The click heals makes buffing a /regen on a team very potent indeed.
Playing whack a mole with health bars not so much, but thats descending into a defender forum favorite topic.
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I think Regen is less powerful on teams because any toon that has healing capabilities will probably heal you as you're clicking Reconstruction/Dull Pain/Instant Healing/MoG. This puts your clickies down for the count, and has wasted your Defender/Troller friends endurance. Not very useful.
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However if you have a forcefielder, or the empath puts fort on you. Even 25% defence not onoly doubles you own mitigation through regen (which is matched by a /Wp increase), but the mitigation your own click heals brings is doubled as well.
The click heals makes buffing a /regen on a team very potent indeed.
Playing whack a mole with health bars not so much, but thats descending into a defender forum favorite topic.
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so... u r saying 25% def would make regen better than wp? O.O (runs to Mid's builder)
QR IME etc etc etc... 
I find Regen very "clicky" for its mitigation, a playstyle I do NOT enjoy on a scrapper. WP gave me "close enough" performance, without needing to manage the clicks. I've aslo found Regen to be a very squishy scrapper set, compared to my SR and SD scrappers (I never got a Regen past lvl 20, but I have teamed with 100s). I've managed to get a WP scrapper up to 38 (so far), he seems ok now, but was fairly squishy until lvl 30 or so...
YMMV
A /Regen honestly shouldn't be judged until you get him into the high 30's, similar to a /SR. Having mulitiple clicks is important. It means that at any given time, you have one of your life-saving clicks up. Without IH or MoG, you are missing 2 powers which are total life savers. I have 72.5% global recharge in my build. So at all times, DP, IH, or MoG is activated with Reconstruction being available about every 20 seconds.
I don't see the issue of the clicks. I guess because /regen was my first. I think toggles have spoiled some of you /regen haters. Just about all non melee ATs have 2+ trays of click powers they use constaly to survive a battle and don't trip about it at all. So what if you gotta click more then 5 powers to play and survive. Go wine to that blaster or that troller or that defender about having to a self heal or a power that caps Hit Points or a power that gives near res cap and def soft cap to all but psi for 15 seconds or a power that raised your regen rate to survie and see what they tell you. True, lag is an issue but its an issue for anyone trying to attack. I've had lag death on my WP, /fire, and /invul. Ok, I'm changing the channel now. I already know how this show is going to end.
Oh. And to who ever that was that said "/regen was teh gimp" I would love to show your uber /wp and anyone else who co-signs that comment uber /wp who is teh gimp in the arena on test. I was more offended with that statement then werner is with mobs still standing.
"All problems can be solved by throwing enough scrappers at it."
@Riez on Virtue, Protector, Champion, and Exalted server.
QR
I always get a giggle when Scrapper argue about whether this or that set is best. A whole AT where every single powerset combo is near overpowered or better and people feel the need to argue about the details. 
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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QR
I always get a giggle when Scrapper argue about whether this or that set is best. A whole AT where every single powerset combo is near overpowered or better and people feel the need to argue about the details.
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But that's what makes us the best.
As for the hatred of regen's clicky nature, click powers cause weapon redraw. Weapon redraw was always annoying, but now it actually decreases DPS. This is why my regener has FM as the primary.
Be well, people of CoH.
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QR
I always get a giggle when Scrapper argue about whether this or that set is best. A whole AT where every single powerset combo is near overpowered or better and people feel the need to argue about the details.
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Its funny to me too. But to just out right trash a set is just wrong. Not even ela deserves that. I had to say something. New players will read that and treat it as law and miss out on stuff and stay misinformed. Great guide btw. That's the build I used on my BS/Regen leveling up. Its still the same for the most part.
"All problems can be solved by throwing enough scrappers at it."
@Riez on Virtue, Protector, Champion, and Exalted server.
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I don't see the issue of the clicks. I guess because /regen was my first. I think toggles have spoiled some of you /regen haters. Just about all non melee ATs have 2+ trays of click powers they use constaly to survive a battle and don't trip about it at all.
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Some of us rolled our /Regen characters on the day the game launched and remember the fact that the set we rolled originally was a toggle based set.
Integration+IH pre-ED was literally insane.
Regen scrappers used to solo AVs long before it became "fashionable" to do so and rarely had to touch any click powers other than Dull Pain and Hasten in order to do it.
The Devs saw this happening and thus /Regen became the "Nerf of the Issue" power set. This continued until a few releases ago where "Regeneration" morphed into "Click to Live"; a set which has very little resemblance to it's original form.
Personally I hate the new version and went so far as to use IOs to force the set back into something that at least vaguely resembles what it used to be.
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With a base regeneration of 80 hp/second + the Heals from Siphon Life in my attack chain, I am back to where I only touch the "Click" powers of Reconstruction, Instant Healing and MoG very rarely.
And so, I am almost happy with the set again.
(and it only cost me 700m inf to do it)
Well WP is for dummies and new ppl to scrappers IMO regen is for the more experienced ppl that know how to use things
heres why WPs great sets and toggles and survivability but its all attack, which is good for beginers and stuff, BUT regen takes skill and isnt for everyone.....
A person might think a regen is better because they can use it, some may think WP is better because its easier to maintain.. thats my 2 cents...
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I don't see the issue of the clicks. I guess because /regen was my first. I think toggles have spoiled some of you /regen haters. Just about all non melee ATs have 2+ trays of click powers they use constaly to survive a battle and don't trip about it at all.
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Some of us rolled our /Regen characters on the day the game launched and remember the fact that the set we rolled originally was a toggle based set.
Integration+IH pre-ED was literally insane.
Regen scrappers used to solo AVs long before it became "fashionable" to do so and rarely had to touch any click powers other than Dull Pain and Hasten in order to do it.
The Devs saw this happening and thus /Regen became the "Nerf of the Issue" power set. This continued until a few releases ago where "Regeneration" morphed into "Click to Live"; a set which has very little resemblance to it's original form.
Personally I hate the new version and went so far as to use IOs to force the set back into something that at least vaguely resembles what it used to be.
With a base regeneration of 80 hp/second + the Heals from Siphon Life in my attack chain, I am back to where I only touch the "Click" powers of Reconstruction, Instant Healing and MoG very rarely.
And so, I am almost happy with the set again.
(and it only cost me 700m inf to do it)
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See. Spoiled by toggles If I had been playing then, I might hate it now too. But saying that, I'd also hate /fire and /invul. From what I've heard from others, they got game changing nerfs that outraged everyone as well.
"All problems can be solved by throwing enough scrappers at it."
@Riez on Virtue, Protector, Champion, and Exalted server.
Q: Why pick Regen over Willpower?
A: It has higher potential for (de)buffage than Willpower. It is also a great solo set. Don't tank in a team full of non-(de)buffers, and you'll be amazing.
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Well WP is for dummies and new ppl to scrappers IMO regen is for the more experienced ppl that know how to use things
heres why WPs great sets and toggles and survivability but its all attack, which is good for beginers and stuff, BUT regen takes skill and isnt for everyone.....
A person might think a regen is better because they can use it, some may think WP is better because its easier to maintain.. thats my 2 cents...
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wow...elitist much? :P
skill...this game needs very little skill. Regen takes very little skill "I'm hurt...HEAL!". If you're going to go on about skill, solo an AV with a defender, that takes some skill. Everything else is just ego.
And PLEASE note: I am not claiming to have solo'd an AV with my defender, or any of my toons for that matter. I'm just tired of seeing that comment used to defend a particular PLAYSTYLE, ANY playstyle.
I didn't reroll my lvl 28 regen scrapper into a wp version because it was too difficult to play. I rerolled it because I didn't find it a fun way to play a SCRAPPER. I have several toons with multiple click self heals, I know how to handle that. They aren't scrappers though. You never see Wolverine INTENTIONALLY taking a break from attacking to heal. He just goes and goes until he's either knocked unconscious, or everyone's defeated. THAT'S a scrapper (IMHO). Regen, as it is now, isn't like that for me. WP is, SR is, SD is - those are all I can comment on, haven't played the others as a scrapper set.
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skill...this game needs very little skill. Regen takes very little skill "I'm hurt...HEAL!". If you're going to go on about skill, solo an AV with a defender, that takes some skill. Everything else is just ego.
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Call it "skill" or "mashed potatoes", the fact is some people can do stuff on regens I can't do, but I will be able to do everything anyone can do on a WP (assuming same builds) as it's a 100% passive set.
So, I'd say mashed potatoes do indeed play a bigger part in Regen than WP. Whether it's a lot of mashed potatoes or just a few ones is irrelevant, the difference is still there. Yes, if you stick to soloing invincible missions set for 1 player, the amount of mashed potatoes required is so low the difference is hardly noticeable if at all, but if you go for bigger stuff you'll need more mashed potatoes.
For the record, with some defender powersets, soloing AVs is easier than on many scrappers. I had a Rad/Son which required no mashed potatoes at all, he could solo AVs by level 35 with SOs, spamming two and only two attacks.
I think at the heart of this and every other issue about Regen IMHO, is you have the Old COH players of Regen, when it was glorious, and the NEW breed of COX players.
When in its prime REGEN was AMAZING. . .that unfortunately got itself NERFED. Then the complaints rolled in, and they tweaked, and tweaked it till it is the Regen "click to live" set we all (old) timers love to hate, and you young COX "New" Breed Regen players think is awesome, "IF" you can manage it well. And yes it does take more to use than just "I"m hurt I'll heal!"
Here is the underlineing problem with the WAY Regen works now. . . It doesn't. That's a period at the end of that statement. For you 4 AV's at one timers showing us it does, you are only showing that YOU are what works not the REGEN. You didn't do that by standing there and letting your body regen the damage you took. You double stacked +def (1st of all) and secondly YOU are really AWESOME with that set, you know it well, and probably use it better than any other person around right now. BUT, like I said YOU make that set good, Regen doesn't make it good. Also, it's a huge misnomor. It isn't REGEN it's Click to Heal/Self Empathy.
A new person joining this game for the first time is usually going to join b/c they have a fav. character that they want to remake on COX. A lot of people love Wolverine, DeadPool, Sabertooth and others with that good 'ole Regen. Sadly when they play it, they think, why do I have to concentrate like I'm taking a dump to heal? Why do I get the stuffing beat out of me when I'm trying to learn how to play and can't manage all these clicks and still fight. The COX franchise really hurts itself by allowing this FAN BOY power be so HARD to really get good at, that new players gives up on it and switches to WP or something else, or just quits the game all together. LOL. . .you should have seen the amount of Wolverine clones when COH went live. . .OMG. . .I had mine, my first 50, my first character was a Claws/Regen aptly named Texas Talon. Now, he is never played. . .his Regen isn't Regen, it's click healing, self-empathy, Empathy party of one, but I digress.
The moral of this rant, info blog, minor message, is that old Regen was really, REALLY GREAT. . . then it was nerfed beyond belief. If they could find a happy medium, and allow it to be a toggle/click set; just fix it. For those of you who say it isn't broke, well if you didn't play it back then, you can't have an opinion on it now. . .you can't make an informed decision rather, becuase you didn't have anything to compare it too.
To answer those who will try to say, "well the Devs haven't fixed it yet so, there must be nothing wrong with it." I say, it still is chosen by many new players, who have NO IDEA how far it is from what there idea of REGEN is going to be. They just pick it and find out later. So to the makers of the game and data mining, it's being picked a whole lot still, so it doesn't need to be fixed. I would be intrested to see what the comparison of Pre nerf regen users, compared to New COX users Regen Users (huh? does that make sense?) and NEWBS. I'd like to see the graph, pie chart, data, of those diffrent groups having active Regen characters and how much they get played compared to other sets, how many Regens get started then deleted, for something else, or how many get shelved. Finally, how many click loving, skilled having regeners actually play. If it is like 1% of the community then you know, for a power as popular as it is in Comics and with FAN Boys, there is something. . .terribly. . .WRONG!
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Here is the underlineing problem with the WAY Regen works now. . . It doesn't. That's a period at the end of that statement. For you 4 AV's at one timers showing us it does, you are only showing that YOU are what works not the REGEN. You didn't do that by standing there and letting your body regen the damage you took. You double stacked +def (1st of all) and secondly YOU are really AWESOME with that set, you know it well, and probably use it better than any other person around right now. BUT, like I said YOU make that set good, Regen doesn't make it good. Also, it's a huge misnomor. It isn't REGEN it's Click to Heal/Self Empathy.
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*wipes a tear away*
*ahem*
The concept issue is an interesting one, but I think I must unfortunately say that it is a separate issue from what the main argument in this thread is. And as for the various points you made about regen being inferior simply because it isn't what the set used to be, I must disagree. Sure, that is valid when you look at it from your concept perspective, but in terms of overall game balance, Regen is still obviously holding its own. It may take more mashed potatoes to play, but when you do have some of those mashed potatoes, it can push the envelope.
Certain situations will favor Willpower. Certain situations will favor Regen.
In the end, as has been stated many times before, one should simply play what they enjoy. The difference in overall performance is minimal enough that the end decision should come down to personal preference.
You pick Regen over WP because Quick Recovery comes at like level 4 and backing off from a spawn of enemies isn't a death sentance like it can be with WP.
You pick WP over Regen if you like the idea of Regen but you don't like clicking.
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When in its prime REGEN was AMAZING. . .that unfortunately got itself NERFED. Then the complaints rolled in, and they tweaked, and tweaked it till it is the Regen "click to live" set we all (old) timers love to hate, and you young COX "New" Breed Regen players think is awesome, "IF" you can manage it well. And yes it does take more to use than just "I"m hurt I'll heal!"
Here is the underlineing problem with the WAY Regen works now. . . It doesn't. That's a period at the end of that statement. For you 4 AV's at one timers showing us it does, you are only showing that YOU are what works not the REGEN. You didn't do that by standing there and letting your body regen the damage you took. You double stacked +def (1st of all) and secondly YOU are really AWESOME with that set, you know it well, and probably use it better than any other person around right now. BUT, like I said YOU make that set good, Regen doesn't make it good. Also, it's a huge misnomor. It isn't REGEN it's Click to Heal/Self Empathy.
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Exactly. I chose Regeneration way back when for my immortal martial artist as a good way to simulate the hands-off inexhaustibility and regeneration exhibited by various kinds of immortals. That sort of utility got ripped out of Regeneration and it *is* pretty much a Self-Empathy set now. And my Regen character got pretty well shelved largely for those changes (and somewhat due to Phase Shift changes and an aesthetic change to Whirlwind that seemed to come with the ragdoll physics). He's been languishing in his 30s since then, rarely played.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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You pick Regen over WP because Quick Recovery comes at like level 4 and backing off from a spawn of enemies isn't a death sentance like it can be with WP.
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Or, you pick WP over Regen because you want to have (potentially) softcapped defenses, good S/L resistance and massive passive regeneration.
I find it both amusing and confounding that people keep thinking that Willpower has better +regen than Regeneration, particularly when Regeneration can cap out its Hit Points easily and has Instant Healing, which does beat a fully saturated RttC.
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i nevers invite regens to mah teams. they are teh gimp.
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Indeed, I could never accomplish anything decent on my own regen scrapper, so I shelved him.
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And yet a regen user started a thread where he took out 4 AVs....
waaaaaaaaitaminute....
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I think Regen is less powerful on teams because any toon that has healing capabilities will probably heal you as you're clicking Reconstruction/Dull Pain/Instant Healing/MoG. This puts your clickies down for the count, and has wasted your Defender/Troller friends endurance. Not very useful.
However, I have seen Regen'ers tell Empaths that they don't need to be healed. Which works, but most Empaths just see low HP and click heal other. (Whenever I play an Empath, I'm usually caught clicking my OWN name, haha).
Willpower, on the other hand, is more team friendly in that regard. Your HP won't take as fluctuate as much. Also, teams can cause lag, futher hindering Regen.
Solo, however, I'd say the sets are the same. RttC doesn't get as much mileage solo. And Regen's clickyness can be just as effective as WP's toggles.