Numerically, why pick Regeneration over Willpower?
By
AgentMountaineer,
Posted on: 2009-07-23 10:12 in Scrappers
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I've seen quite a few new Spines/WP toons strolling around Atlas, and it's not hard to figure out why.
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Does this mean I did good by making a Fire/WP scrapper? I can haz farmr?
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Maintaining 6.5 targets is an astoundingly high figure. By your own assessment, Regen delivers superior regeneration.
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Read his post a little more closely. That number is required to be better than /Regen when /Regen uses IH constantly. In reality you're not going to use IH anywhere near constantly.
That's not even getting into the point that if you love the regen stat you don't want it doing massive extreme fluctuation like IH causes.
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All those are considered, and all those point to a regeneration advantage for Regen.
I wander away for a couple days, and Ultimus himself shows up for the first time in forever on the scrapper boards to beat a dead horse. I AM amused. 
Numerically, top tier Katana/Regeneration and Katana/Willpower builds get similar survivability scores in my spreadsheet when soloing a one or a few enemies without temps or inspirations. Willpower pulls ahead when surrounded by enemies to fuel Rise to the Challenge.
Private spreadsheet results for a specific primary in edge case situations is never going to settle the debate, of course. But this IS a dead horse we're beating.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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*sigh*
I think I'd bet that a thread containing this very subject comes up more than once a week. Maybe on average, once a week. It's getting ridiculous.
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Hmm, I did a search for +regeneration and +willpower in the Scrapper forum for the last year and only saw two threads. I'll concede though that there are more than that with slightly different titles, maybe calling it "regen" or "wp." Still, that's two topics in one whole year vs. 1 a week on average.
I agree in that it's a [censored] topic and I doubted it was started for spurious reasons till I saw the OP responding "how so" to the proposition that his question was based on a BLATANTLY false premise of a blanket statement. 
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*sigh*
I think I'd bet that a thread containing this very subject comes up more than once a week. Maybe on average, once a week. It's getting ridiculous.
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Hmm, I did a search for +regeneration and +willpower in the Scrapper forum for the last year and only saw two threads. I'll concede though that there are more than that with slightly different titles, maybe calling it "regen" or "wp." Still, that's two topics in one whole year vs. 1 a week on average.
I agree in that it's a [censored] topic and I doubted it was started for spurious reasons till I saw the OP responding "how so" to the proposition that his question was based on a BLATANTLY false premise of a blanket statement.
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Well a year doesn't help when they purge the forums. It was in May when this happen, so that was 2 months ago. Now you said you found 2 post of this and this makes 3. So this comes up about once a month. Not every week but it does come up a lot.
"All right, they're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time"- Chesty Puller US Marine Corps
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Numerically, top tier Katana/Regeneration and Katana/Willpower builds get similar survivability scores in my spreadsheet when soloing a one or a few enemies without temps or inspirations. Willpower pulls ahead when surrounded by enemies to fuel Rise to the Challenge.
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So, they're about the same except when Willpower is better? 
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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Numerically, top tier Katana/Regeneration and Katana/Willpower builds get similar survivability scores in my spreadsheet when soloing a one or a few enemies without temps or inspirations. Willpower pulls ahead when surrounded by enemies to fuel Rise to the Challenge.
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So, they're about the same except when Willpower is better?
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A good summation, yes.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
I wonder if stalkers debate wp and regen the way they are debated here. I just started reading the forums not too long ago and this is the third time this subject has been started up. The next time its started up, someone should just paste a link to one of the other two. They all say the same exact thing.
"All problems can be solved by throwing enough scrappers at it."
@Riez on Virtue, Protector, Champion, and Exalted server.
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Numerically, top tier Katana/Regeneration and Katana/Willpower builds get similar survivability scores in my spreadsheet when soloing a one or a few enemies without temps or inspirations. Willpower pulls ahead when surrounded by enemies to fuel Rise to the Challenge.
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How about top-tier MA/Ragen verus top-tier MA/WP?
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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I want to PvP someone on test who has a Fire/WP. I challenge you now with my Fire/Regen Super Scrapper!
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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I want to PvP someone on test who has a Fire/WP. I challenge you now with my Fire/Regen Super Scrapper!
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Good luck with that. It seems none of the flaming /regen haters want to step up and defend their precious /wp set. Really, this debate has less backing then the /DA sucks debate. But for kicks, ill challenge you with my fire/fire 
"All problems can be solved by throwing enough scrappers at it."
@Riez on Virtue, Protector, Champion, and Exalted server.
*waves hand*
Shhhh Dark Armor does suck, there's nothing to see here
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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Numerically, top tier Katana/Regeneration and Katana/Willpower builds get similar survivability scores in my spreadsheet when soloing a one or a few enemies without temps or inspirations. Willpower pulls ahead when surrounded by enemies to fuel Rise to the Challenge.
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How about top-tier MA/Ragen verus top-tier MA/WP?
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Don't know. I don't have such builds on hand to reference, nor do I have the experience to recognize a top tier build in that case.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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I wander away for a couple days, and Ultimus himself shows up for the first time in forever on the scrapper boards to beat a dead horse. I AM amused.
Numerically, top tier Katana/Regeneration and Katana/Willpower builds get similar survivability scores in my spreadsheet when soloing a one or a few enemies without temps or inspirations. Willpower pulls ahead when surrounded by enemies to fuel Rise to the Challenge.
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Katana/Regen blurs things a bit though as it has a tool for boosting melee defense considerably which in turn artificially inflates /Regen's survivability.
WP has a much easier time reaching the Defensive softcap without Divine Avalanche.
A better comparison of Regeneration and WP for overall survivability would be with a primary which doesn't offer such a defensive option.
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I wander away for a couple days, and Ultimus himself shows up for the first time in forever on the scrapper boards to beat a dead horse. I AM amused.
Numerically, top tier Katana/Regeneration and Katana/Willpower builds get similar survivability scores in my spreadsheet when soloing a one or a few enemies without temps or inspirations. Willpower pulls ahead when surrounded by enemies to fuel Rise to the Challenge.
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Katana/Regen blurs things a bit though as it has a tool for boosting melee defense considerably which in turn artificially inflates /Regen's survivability.
WP has a much easier time reaching the Defensive softcap without Divine Avalanche.
A better comparison of Regeneration and WP for overall survivability would be with a primary which doesn't offer such a defensive option.
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Agreed. Which is one reason for the next sentence, which was "Private spreadsheet results for a specific primary in edge case situations is never going to settle the debate, of course." But as I also just said, I don't have comparative results for, say, Martial Arts. It wouldn't surprise me if Willpower is ahead there, but that's mere guessing on my part, which also isn't going to settle any debate.
And perhaps conceding the point even further, or perhaps explaining why Katana makes for an appropriate comparison, I can't conceive of playing non-defensive secondary (Regen, Fire, Dark) without a sword primary. I insist on defense. I'm not going to build a scrapper with no defensive leg to stand on, and I'm not going to wait until 50 and IOing out to get that defensive leg.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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I'm not going to build a scrapper with no defensive leg to stand on, and I'm not going to wait until 50 and IOing out to get that defensive leg.
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Chicken!
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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I want to PvP someone on test who has a Fire/WP. I challenge you now with my Fire/Regen Super Scrapper!
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I don't think superiority in PvP is at all an issue here. Most know that Regen outclasses most of the other scrapper secondaries, especially since WP suffers from toggle-drop issues with RttC.
But then again, many people are of the opinion that PvP in this game is borked anyway.
The issue here (or non-issue, as it were), is their comparative performance in PvE.
My take is this: regen has to do a lot more work and waste time on clicks, that takes away from attacking, and if you're using a weapon set, even more time is wasted with redraw, yet both sets offer similar levels of damage mitigation. IMO, if you have to work more, and give up time to use the set to mitigate rather than attack, then you should get superior mitigation - if you end up getting similar mitigation, I'll take the set that requires less work and less offensive sacrifice.
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I want to PvP someone on test who has a Fire/WP. I challenge you now with my Fire/Regen Super Scrapper!
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Good luck with that. It seems none of the flaming /regen haters want to step up and defend their precious /wp set. Really, this debate has less backing then the /DA sucks debate. But for kicks, ill challenge you with my fire/fire
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Regen is better than WP in pvp, but at this point pvp is VERY different than pve, ridiculously so imo. One of WP's best toggles, rttc, is rendered virtually useless by any mez attack. That alone creates a large gap in performance. What the devs did with pvp is... I can't think of a word that adequately describes how ridiculous it is, lol.
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My take is this: regen has to do a lot more work and waste time on clicks
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This is always something that has grated on my nerves. */Regen is the only set that has to expend large portions of a resource normally untouched by defensive sets (animation time) and doesn't receive any real, tangible benefit for using that additional resource. The balance equations don't have anything for animation time (though hopefully they will soon; c'mon Castle!), but it's still a cost that should be factored in since it is a resource expenditure, especially since it's more powerful that most others simply because it's not modifiable. Regen is balanced around considerations for largely toggle based sets that have defenses active at all times which inflates Regen's comparative performance simply because it ignores delays in click use thanks to the normal use of animation time (attacking) as well as lag. The "borrowing ahead" argument posed to me by Arcanaville as the fundamental balance factor that normalized this lack of variable assessment never quite sat well with me.
Reconstruction is 0.73 animation - call it every 30 seconds
Dull pain the same but every 180 seconds or so
Yes animation time is a factor, but it isn't really a large portion of the overall time
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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Reconstruction is 0.73 animation - call it every 30 seconds
Dull pain the same but every 180 seconds or so
Yes animation time is a factor, but it isn't really a large portion of the overall time
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It's a substantially larger portion of time than you give it credit for, especially considering the animation time required by other sets.
(and the times are .924, .924, 1.32, and 2.772 secs, in Arcanatime actuality)
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The "borrowing ahead" argument posed to me by Arcanaville as the fundamental balance factor that normalized this lack of variable assessment never quite sat well with me.
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Then you're probably the sort of player that doesn't sit around for several minutes waiting for everything to recharge so that you can achieve another burst of peak performance. Like almost every scrapper in existence, I'd say.
Yes, we can achieve higher peak performance by clicking on Dull Pain, Instant Healing and Moment of Glory at the same time. But anything in the game that needs that sort of peak performance is still going to be around 15 seconds later, and we're going to be sad little Regenners that we didn't pace ourselves better.
I'll agree with Arcanaville that we can save up survivability rather than being constantly at our average. But I'd say that doesn't matter much in practice, because the only enemies tough enough fight with that strategy are going to live long enough for that strategy to backfire.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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I want to PvP someone on test who has a Fire/WP. I challenge you now with my Fire/Regen Super Scrapper!
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Good luck with that. It seems none of the flaming /regen haters want to step up and defend their precious /wp set. Really, this debate has less backing then the /DA sucks debate. But for kicks, ill challenge you with my fire/fire
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Regen is better than WP in pvp, but at this point pvp is VERY different than pve, ridiculously so imo. One of WP's best toggles, rttc, is rendered virtually useless by any mez attack. That alone creates a large gap in performance. What the devs did with pvp is... I can't think of a word that adequately describes how ridiculous it is, lol.
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PvP and PvE aren't very different in Arena matches on the test server when you're fighting a fire/regeneration scrapper. Hint Hint
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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The funny thing about the damage badges is that any damage that you take that doesn't bring you below your base max hp doesn't count. This pretty much means that Dull Pain is a rather large inhibitor for getting the damage badges.
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Dull Pain? Foo! I love pain! More pain, I say! Respec! Another power slot opens!
Seriously, that sucks if that's true. Still, I do find my /regen scrappers hitting their damage badges a lot sooner than anyone else, even the "damage sponge" tankers and other scrappers. Could be I'm not hitting the button enough, though.
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It could be that you hit it after you take a serious hit. All that dmg outside of what ever accolades and bonuses you have will count. Then you hit dull pain and get all your health back and adding the padding. Part the dmg you take after that won't count.
"All problems can be solved by throwing enough scrappers at it."
@Riez on Virtue, Protector, Champion, and Exalted server.