Numerically, why pick Regeneration over Willpower?
By
AgentMountaineer,
Posted on: 2009-07-23 10:12 in Scrappers
I used to be so much of a WP lover that after my Nth WP character my friends were starting to go that my favorite character would be a WP/WP/WP.
Now that role has been firmly dislodged by SD.
That build a few posts above has some sweet stuff in it. Granted my WP scrapper has a 75 HP regen per second with one mob around, but all the extra heals and that godmode that is actually used (I've always skipped mine on my WPers, I felt a purple did the same effect) make it seem much more interesting to play.
Then again I don't know if simply working Aid Self into the build wouldn't be good enough, though softcapping would be insane, basicly SR defenses with uber regen and HP looks like godly.
The few regen I played were only to 20, I found them way squishy though it's tempered with experience now. Whatever scrapperr I play (defense based above all) is truly squishy at least until Tough/Weave has been fitted in.
Well the build for Speed Force manages a regeneration total of 800% (80 hp/sec) at all times (barring debuffs) and hits 1646% (165 hp/sec) when IH is available which is 90 out of every 192 seconds (or 46.8% of the time).
Which is good, but nowhere near what it used to be "back in the day".
And while for one opponent it will out regenerate a WP build, WP also has better Defense and Resistances and in a prolonged fight, will certainly do better than my regen character against any large group.
But I freely admit that my scrapper is built in a very atypical manner compared to what others here tend to go for.
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Well the build for Speed Force manages a regeneration total of 800% (80 hp/sec) at all times (barring debuffs) and hits 1646% (165 hp/sec) when IH is available which is 90 out of every 192 seconds (or 46.8% of the time).
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This is always something to keep in mind. You can't make RttC and HPT more effective than they already are. There are no set bonuses or powers that increase their effectiveness. IH, Dull Pain, MoG and Reconstruction all get substantial benefits from +recharge that actually increase their fundamental effectiveness (though they diminish rather quickly once you get to ~200% +recharge for a power). Of course, this is easily countered by */regen's lack of native damage mitigation to stack with IO set bonuses which actually have a much greater effect on functional regeneration and survivability than a couple extra hp/sec.
I have a Kat/Regen at 50 and a Claws/WP at 38 who's been stuck there for a couple of months. While it may be a strong set defensively, from the whole 'I'm playing a game to have fun' viewpoint it bores me to tears. Regen has much more strategic depth and demands much more attention in return for potentially higher levels of survivability.
I wouldn't have it any other way.
@Demobot
Also on Steam
Heh, I like how statistics can be used to support anything you want them to support. But my point still stands:
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I find it both amusing and confounding that people keep thinking that Willpower has better +regen than Regeneration, particularly when Regeneration can cap out its Hit Points easily and has Instant Healing, which does beat a fully saturated RttC.
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But...
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The +regen dominance issue is pretty much a non-point: */WP wins; RttC is simple better than Integration and Instant Healing combined.
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Bovine feces. If you want to consider the downtime of IH, then you also got to consider non-saturated stats of RttC, and that can fluctuate any number of times while idle, running from mob to mob, or in the middle of a spawn. Numerically, Regen beats out WP when it comes to having the highest +regen rate. There's really no way to deny that.
With that said, +regen rate is not the end-all/be-all of which set works better for you. I believe it's still a matter of style, and a personal preference.
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The +regen dominance issue is pretty much a non-point: */WP wins; RttC is simple better than Integration and Instant Healing combined.
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Bovine feces. If you want to consider the downtime of IH, then you also got to consider non-saturated stats of RttC, and that can fluctuate any number of times while idle, running from mob to mob, or in the middle of a spawn. Numerically, Regen beats out WP when it comes to having the highest +regen rate. There's really no way to deny that.
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Interestingly enough, I did. I specifically mentioned that, in order to equal the average +regen of a */regen Scrapper, it only takes 6.49 targets. Any number of targets above that, and you've got better average +regen than a */regen Scrapper. RttC saturates at 10 targets, and I never even brought that value up.
The other problem you're bringing up is that you're specifically referencing peak +regen without referencing "normal mode" +regen at all. Without IH, which is not a normally activated power for most */regens, */wp beats out */regen hands down simply because, if there is more than 1 target in RttC, RttC is bigger than Integration. With IH, of course */regen is going to win out simply because it's functionally the "tier 9" equivalent for */regen. You might as well argue that */SR doesn't need IOs in order to softcap because it has Elude available to it. You have to consider IH from an averaged perspective. When it's averaged in, even assuming that it sees optimal use and doesn't get eaten by downtime, */regen manages worse +regen than */wp if the */wp can manage to get 7 or more targets in RttC (which isn't anywhere near a difficult prospect).
Plus, there's no such thing as "+regen rate". There is "regen rate", which can either be read as the speed at which you receive the 5% health ticks or the average rate at which you recover your hit points, and "+regen" which is simply the modifier for your base regeneration.
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Numerically, why pick Regeneration over Willpower?
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If you PVP WP will detoggle RttC with any one application of ANY mez, In pvp most have at least 1 mez and most Regens are OP in PVP now a days, WP will need outside buffs and aid self to compete. 
PvP these days
However WP does better against burst damage, but an experienced Regen will do well against anything really. WP = easy mode in pve. (not the case in pvp now)
Post Comic book Fan Films that ROCK!
Fight my brute
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I find it both amusing and confounding that people keep thinking that Willpower has better +regen than Regeneration, particularly when Regeneration can cap out its Hit Points easily and has Instant Healing, which does beat a fully saturated RttC.
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The reason that */WP has gotten the reputation for better +regen than */regen is mostly because it's true.
They've both got Fast Healing with the same +regen, but */WP's is slightly better (thanks to debuff resistance). Dull Pain is a bit better than High Pain Tolerance (HPT manages 29.5% +maxhp SO slotted, Dull Pain manages 38% when averaged) but has the definite advantages of providing resistance to go along with the +hp and not being recharge dependent. The big exchange is in Integration versus Rise to the Challenge. Slotted with SOs, RttC nearly matches Integration's +regen with a single target in range (1.3% +regen less actually) but can go up to more than 2.75 times as high (682.2% +regen compared to 244.9% +regen) when saturated. Instant Healing's uptime with SOs is notoriously bad (27%) and, coupled with the fact that only a quarter of its +regen is actually enhanceable (600% unenhanceable, 200% enhanceable), fully slotted, it only gives 989.9% +regen for an average benefit of 267.273% +regen.
In order to achieve +regen equivalence, Willpower only needs to sustain 6.49 targets in RttC and that's assuming that Regen pops IH as soon as possible, every time that it's up.
The +regen dominance issue is pretty much a non-point: */WP wins; RttC is simple better than Integration and Instant Healing combined. The bigger point to consider is that */regen isn't about +regen anymore and hasn't been for a while: it's about self heals. The +regen is only around to provide a minor base of survivability to live off of while using the click heals.
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Maintaining 6.5 targets is an astoundingly high figure. By your own assessment, Regen delivers superior regeneration.
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The +regen dominance issue is pretty much a non-point: */WP wins; RttC is simple better than Integration and Instant Healing combined.
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Bovine feces. If you want to consider the downtime of IH, then you also got to consider non-saturated stats of RttC, and that can fluctuate any number of times while idle, running from mob to mob, or in the middle of a spawn. Numerically, Regen beats out WP when it comes to having the highest +regen rate. There's really no way to deny that.
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Interestingly enough, I did. I specifically mentioned that, in order to equal the average +regen of a */regen Scrapper, it only takes 6.49 targets. Any number of targets above that, and you've got better average +regen than a */regen Scrapper. RttC saturates at 10 targets, and I never even brought that value up.
The other problem you're bringing up is that you're specifically referencing peak +regen without referencing "normal mode" +regen at all. Without IH, which is not a normally activated power for most */regens, */wp beats out */regen hands down simply because, if there is more than 1 target in RttC, RttC is bigger than Integration. With IH, of course */regen is going to win out simply because it's functionally the "tier 9" equivalent for */regen. You might as well argue that */SR doesn't need IOs in order to softcap because it has Elude available to it. You have to consider IH from an averaged perspective. When it's averaged in, even assuming that it sees optimal use and doesn't get eaten by downtime, */regen manages worse +regen than */wp if the */wp can manage to get 7 or more targets in RttC (which isn't anywhere near a difficult prospect).
Plus, there's no such thing as "+regen rate". There is "regen rate", which can either be read as the speed at which you receive the 5% health ticks or the average rate at which you recover your hit points, and "+regen" which is simply the modifier for your base regeneration.
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Downtime works in favor of Instant Healing as much as it works against it. Moreso, since you can choose when you need the extra healing and when Reconstruction is fine. It's also laughable to call Instant Healing a tier 9 equivalent. It's a unique power, and powerful.
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Maintaining 6.5 targets is an astoundingly high figure.
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Agreed, in most cases ; but if you can manipulate the situation to have 10 targets at all times, that means you can have very high performance.
Something that's important as well, in my opinion, is travel time. When you kill a group in 18 seconds, even if you take only 2 seconds to travel to the next group, 10% of your time was spent without any target in RttC range, while Regen still regens at the same rate. This affects WP's ability to kite - when you absolutely have to (defense debuffs in ITF, at least for me), your regen starts being really low.
> insert incendiary, provacative comment here <
> insert thinly veiled insult as reply here <
surprised this thread hasn't dissolved into a mire of leet-speaking "your mum" jokes with a side of rickrolling yet,
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skill...this game needs very little skill. Regen takes very little skill "I'm hurt...HEAL!". If you're going to go on about skill, solo an AV with a defender, that takes some skill. Everything else is just ego.
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You are drinking from the wrong koolaid
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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skill...this game needs very little skill. Regen takes very little skill "I'm hurt...HEAL!". If you're going to go on about skill, solo an AV with a defender, that takes some skill. Everything else is just ego.
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You are drinking from the wrong koolaid
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No, I am being perhaps to literal and precise in my choice of words.
Skill: ability gained through training, typically by repeating an activity.
Knowledge: understanding of a subject gained through study and reasoning.
This game requires very little training. Knowledge on the other hand... Understanding the game mechanics makes one a FAR better player, than all the training you can muster. To some extent, they go hand in hand, I just don't see much room for improving your play through repitition(sp?), compared to understanding game mechanics.
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Maintaining 6.5 targets is an astoundingly high figure. By your own assessment, Regen delivers superior regeneration.
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Read his post a little more closely. That number is required to be better than /Regen when /Regen uses IH constantly. In reality you're not going to use IH anywhere near constantly.
That's not even getting into the point that if you love the regen stat you don't want it doing massive extreme fluctuation like IH causes.
with pvp it's different. Regen is much better there for scrappers.
@Sentry4 @Sentry 4
PvP Redux is discontinued, for obvious reasons. Thanks to everyone who helped and joined.
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Integration+IH pre-ED was literally insane.
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Ah the good old days when you could permanently have enough regen to go from 1 HP to full in a tad over 12 seconds. Back then a /Regen was either dead or immortal... if you survived the first 10 seconds of a fight you knew you could put your PBAoE on auto and go fix a sandwich if you wanted to. 
Cascade, level 50 Blaster (NRG/NRG since before it was cool)
Mechmeister, level 50 Bots / Traps MM
FAR too many non-50 alts to name
[u]Arcs[u]
The Scavenger Hunt: 187076
The Instant Lair Delivery Service: 206636
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Integration+IH pre-ED was literally insane.
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Ah the good old days when you could permanently have enough regen to go from 1 HP to full in a tad over 12 seconds. Back then a /Regen was either dead or immortal... if you survived the first 10 seconds of a fight you knew you could put your PBAoE on auto and go fix a sandwich if you wanted to.
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AMEN! Brother Man! If you want to make an Immortal conceptually that is what you did, now, Inv w/a lot of IO's and Stoners in Granite. The only 2 Immortals I've seen as of late.
i have a couple of 50 regens and i just realized i havn't matsered regen yet, it's hard to know which to use when and what to start with. WP, u leave toggles on. done
@Sentry4 @Sentry 4
PvP Redux is discontinued, for obvious reasons. Thanks to everyone who helped and joined.
A key /regen benefit that hasn't been mentioned... fast track to damage badges! Folks are maxing and capping their defenses and resistances... not me! I eat damage for breakfast! And then I ask for more! More! MORE! And who's laughing when I hit Immortal and everyone else is struggling up the hill toward a mere Invulnerable? Me! (Umm... not that I have an Immortal toon yet... but it sounds good).
[Good humored rant follows]:
Who likes toggles better than clicks? I hate toggles. Toggles go down. AND toggles suck up endurance. I HATE the blue bar. Regen = forget about blue bar = more slots, more powers. That's right, I don't slot for end red. I don't take stamina. I HATE stamina (I still usually take Health, though, so that I can improve my regen rate, which allows me to do what?... take more damage! Damage... yum!).
Do I IO for def or res? No! I IO for regen! Focus! I'm a regen. What do I need def for?
As for RttC... you know what? We fight tough battles. When we're done, our green bars are usually on the low side... even the WPs with their super awesome I'm-better-than-the-regen-when-I'm-surrounded-by-eight-guys numbers. But you know what I do next? I run to the next spawn! And on my way - POOF! - back to a full tank of green. So while the /WP's are down on their knees catching their breath, I'm crackin' some more heads, getting more ex, and taking more what?... damage! Immortal, here I come!
Ok, ok... I agree with what a lotta guys here said... you play WP or regen based on your play style and what's fun for you. It helps if you don't understand the first thing about all the math floating around on this post (I was an English literature major, for gosh sakes). But three things in parting:
1. Regens don't suck, whatever the numbers, and whatever their past history was.
2. Regens bloom late, so don't judge them too early. Especially before 16, you're going to be leaving your butt marks all over Paragon City, and running like a rabbit from white con minions, before you get Integration, when the whole game changes for you.
3. I'm getting to Immortal first! :P
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A key /regen benefit that hasn't been mentioned... fast track to damage badges! Folks are maxing and capping their defenses and resistances... not me! I eat damage for breakfast! And then I ask for more! More! MORE! And who's laughing when I hit Immortal and everyone else is struggling up the hill toward a mere Invulnerable? Me! (Umm... not that I have an Immortal toon yet... but it sounds good).
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The funny thing about the damage badges is that any damage that you take that doesn't bring you below your base max hp doesn't count. This pretty much means that Dull Pain is a rather large inhibitor for getting the damage badges. Least, that's how it was last I checked. It might have gotten fixed.
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Maintaining 6.5 targets is an astoundingly high figure. By your own assessment, Regen delivers superior regeneration.
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No, it's not. Not hard to do when solo, brainless to do when on teams, and with the changes coming in I16, you won't even need a team to fight large mobs.
I've seen quite a few new Spines/WP toons strolling around Atlas, and it's not hard to figure out why.
nice
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The funny thing about the damage badges is that any damage that you take that doesn't bring you below your base max hp doesn't count. This pretty much means that Dull Pain is a rather large inhibitor for getting the damage badges. Least, that's how it was last I checked. It might have gotten fixed.
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Its still like that. Its even like that with hpt and accolades. Getting the 10,000,000 points of dmg badge was a pain on my /wp brute that already had the invader badge(task force commander on blue side). It was hard looking for a mob that would do enough damage to get badge credit for and at the same time not do enough to kill me while I was in rest.
"All problems can be solved by throwing enough scrappers at it."
@Riez on Virtue, Protector, Champion, and Exalted server.
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The funny thing about the damage badges is that any damage that you take that doesn't bring you below your base max hp doesn't count. This pretty much means that Dull Pain is a rather large inhibitor for getting the damage badges.
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Dull Pain? Foo! I love pain! More pain, I say! Respec! Another power slot opens!
Seriously, that sucks if that's true. Still, I do find my /regen scrappers hitting their damage badges a lot sooner than anyone else, even the "damage sponge" tankers and other scrappers. Could be I'm not hitting the button enough, though.
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I find it both amusing and confounding that people keep thinking that Willpower has better +regen than Regeneration, particularly when Regeneration can cap out its Hit Points easily and has Instant Healing, which does beat a fully saturated RttC.
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The reason that */WP has gotten the reputation for better +regen than */regen is mostly because it's true.
They've both got Fast Healing with the same +regen, but */WP's is slightly better (thanks to debuff resistance). Dull Pain is a bit better than High Pain Tolerance (HPT manages 29.5% +maxhp SO slotted, Dull Pain manages 38% when averaged) but has the definite advantages of providing resistance to go along with the +hp and not being recharge dependent. The big exchange is in Integration versus Rise to the Challenge. Slotted with SOs, RttC nearly matches Integration's +regen with a single target in range (1.3% +regen less actually) but can go up to more than 2.75 times as high (682.2% +regen compared to 244.9% +regen) when saturated. Instant Healing's uptime with SOs is notoriously bad (27%) and, coupled with the fact that only a quarter of its +regen is actually enhanceable (600% unenhanceable, 200% enhanceable), fully slotted, it only gives 989.9% +regen for an average benefit of 267.273% +regen.
In order to achieve +regen equivalence, Willpower only needs to sustain 6.49 targets in RttC and that's assuming that Regen pops IH as soon as possible, every time that it's up.
The +regen dominance issue is pretty much a non-point: */WP wins; RttC is simple better than Integration and Instant Healing combined. The bigger point to consider is that */regen isn't about +regen anymore and hasn't been for a while: it's about self heals. The +regen is only around to provide a minor base of survivability to live off of while using the click heals.