Numerically, why pick Regeneration over Willpower?

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Claws could probably get away with calling Focus and Shockwave "defensive crutches" because of the knockdown and knockback respective though I don't think anyone actually uses them as such.

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You'd be wrong.

EDIT: At least in my particular case, of course.

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Bill doesn't use Shockwave as a crutch. Bill uses it like a gold-plated stair lift with a mini bar and an iPod dock.

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Gotta make up for that lack of aidself somehow.

Almost added that as a sig, A.

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Werner hasn't really played his */regen in a while last I recall him saying and, even then, I think it was the general consensus that a significant portion of his capacity to survive in the situations he survived on Werner were do more significantly to Divine Avalanche than to any specific mastery of */regen, which is actually specifically mentioned that he played down by not stacking +rech to optimize the click powers.

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I do play Werner pretty rarely these days. I've mostly been leveling a whole bunch of alts. He and my skills are getting dusty, though it usually doesn't take long to get back into the swing of it. I DO have over 1500 hours played on Werner, so I do think I have Regen down pretty well, but I certainly make my share of mistakes still.

I don't think I'm a great player. I think I'm just a good player. I think I'm a better builder and number cruncher than player. The combination of the three lets me do some great things, but I'm sure that others could go farther. For instance, ValBlademaster + Umbral's build. Four AVs at once is pretty sweet, and almost certainly beyond my current capability.

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The point I was trying to make was that sometimes it's the primary that Werner capitalized less on his */regen skills and moreso on his katana/* skills on that character. It made him quite effective, and I'm not going to downplay what he's done, but it's thanks to a very powerful skill that he was able to leverage very well more than the ability to leverage the uptimes and downtimes of all of his */regen powers.

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I will note that I've also completed a RWZ challenge without touching Divine Avalanche, on the first try, and on a I12 build centered around Divine Avalanche rather than around recharge. Divine Avalanche may be a huge portion of my success, but I don't actively SUCK at playing Regen.

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Claws could probably get away with calling Focus and Shockwave "defensive crutches" because of the knockdown and knockback respective though I don't think anyone actually uses them as such.

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You'd be wrong.

EDIT: At least in my particular case, of course.

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Bill doesn't use Shockwave as a crutch. Bill uses it like a gold-plated stair lift with a mini bar and an iPod dock.

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Gotta make up for that lack of aidself somehow.

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This was my point. Shockwave and Focus aren't powers that are going to generate near-equivalent performance to an entire secondary. They provide some mitigation, but not enough to actually say "using this power will make you 90% harder to kill!". DA/Parry would fulfill this description for non-defense intensive powersets/builds, Siphon Life would fulfill this for defense saturated powersets/builds, and there aren't any more that really act in this manner. I wouldn't call any of them a crutch, since none of the builds would be bad without them, but they're more appropriately described as very powerful survivability multipliers.

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Shockwave and Focus aren't powers that are going to generate near-equivalent performance to an entire secondary.

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I teamed with Iakona on Test with their Claws/Regen. People underestimate what can be done with Shockwave and Focus. Vastly.

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Shockwave and Focus aren't powers that are going to generate near-equivalent performance to an entire secondary.

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I teamed with Iakona on Test with their Claws/Regen. People underestimate what can be done with Shockwave and Focus. Vastly.

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Having actually watched what Shockwave and Focus for a while large amount of time and, I hope, having an accurate view of how the game interacts with the numbers, I'm pretty sure I'm not downplaying its/their effectiveness. They're excellent powers, but not the equal of DA/Parry in how much survivability they contribute.

Maybe if we were using I8 rules, and no IO's existed, WP definitely. But since IO's, its been easy to softcap defense therefore making Regen the winner. WP has the regen rate, but lacks the big heals. On the other hand Strength of Will beats MoG by a long shot. And of course the mitigation.

Of course one can also IO out a WP to have crazy mitigation and high regen rates. I still have yet to see a vid but if regen can do it, WP should be able to pull it off.

Werner nailed the whole IO'ed Regenier
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fed6bf3a...&playnext=1

That being posted, I'm sure a full IO'ed out WP could do it with ease. Now if we're talking about just SO's?. Then obviously WP.

WP>Regen (No Io's)

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Maybe if we were using I8 rules, and no IO's existed, WP definitely. But since IO's, its been easy to softcap defense therefore making Regen the winner. WP has the regen rate, but lacks the big heals. On the other hand Strength of Will beats MoG by a long shot. And of course the mitigation.

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Considering how much has to be sacrificed by either secondary in order to achieve the softcap (and it not even possible, iirc, without DA or Parry), I'm not sure you actually know what you're talking about, plus, MoG is much better than Strength of Will.

SoW is 120 sec duration with a hefty end crash, 18.75% +res(s/l), 9.375% +res(all but s/l), an unimprovable 40% uptime, 30% +recov, and a bunch of largely redundant mez protection. MoG is pretty much capped resist and defense to all but psi, a similar degree of largely redundant mez protection, 100% +recov, and 240 sec recharge on a 15 sec duration (6.25% uptime, that can be taken, with IOs, up to 20+% uptime).

SoW might have better uptime, but in every other facet, MoG wins handily. There's a reason a lot of */wps skip SoW while no */regen in his right mind would think of skipping MoG (nor do I think anyone that had it available would skip it). It's quite easily one of the best Scrapper tier 9s out there.

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MoG is much better than Strength of Will.

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False. Are you serious?, you do know that MoG lasts a total of 15 seconds...yes you do get a default total of 70% defense to all damage, but its for 15 seconds. SoW lasts for 2 minutes. and stacks with the resistances already at hand. I'm guessing you never played a WP or have no idea how strong SoW is. Is it skippable? yes, isn't every power?. Of course there have been plenty of people who have skipped Unstoppable, this doesn't make them smart for doing so.

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MoG is much better than Strength of Will.

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False. Are you serious?, you do know that MoG lasts a total of 15 seconds...yes you do get a default total of 70% defense to all damage, but its for 15 seconds. SoW lasts for 2 minutes. and stacks with the resistances already at hand. I'm guessing you never played a WP or have no idea how strong SoW is. Is it skippable? yes, isn't every power?. Of course there have been plenty of people who have skipped Unstoppable, this doesn't make them smart for doing so.

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I've got a */regen and a */wp, both at 50. I can tell you with absolute certainty that MoG is better than SoW.

I'm glad thats just opinion, it would suck if it were fact.

15 second god mode vs a 2 minute god mode?.....it pretty much speaks for itself. You're just looking for an argument aren't you?.

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I'm glad thats just opinion, it would suck if it were fact.

15 second god mode vs a 2 minute god mode?.....it pretty much speaks for itself. You're just looking for an argument aren't you?.

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I'm not looking for an argument. I'm looking correct an obvious fallacy, though I wasn't aware that only duration was being paid attention to nor was I that 30% +res(s/l) and 15% +res(all but s/l) can be construed as a "god mode". At most, SoW is a decent partially up survivability buff. Like Practiced Brawler without enhancements.

Simply comparing duration against Moment of Glory is going to be a horribly one sided argument because it ignore's MoG's single greatest attribute: virtual unkillability. While MoG is up, you're so far past softcapped that it's comical, and you're kissing the res cap. You're pretty much the definition of peak survivability for a Scrapper (and pretty close for a Tank too). Willpower simply gets a little bit of extra resistance to add on to its moderate resistances.

I'd have to say MoG is alot better than SoW.

MoG gives alot more +def and +res than SoW, can affected by rech buffs(so it can be up almost every min vs. 3min) and has no crash.

Take that as you will.

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Considering how much has to be sacrificed by either secondary in order to achieve the softcap (and it not even possible, iirc, without DA or Parry), I'm not sure you actually know what you're talking about, plus, MoG is much better than Strength of Will.

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It's possible to soft cap Willpower. I can't imagine it's possible in anything resembling a playable build for Regen.

Regen benefits more from recharge, of course, which is nice if you want to kill defensive and offensive birds with one stone. Then again, the survivability gains one can acquire through +recharge on a Regen don't come close to the survivability gains from soft-capping S/L/N/E on a Willpower (you can also softcap F/C, but I don't see the point).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze Nice build

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How do you feel about Belhaven Scottish Ale?

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There are several types, I cant usually find any round here.

Belhaven 80 Shilling is definitely good, but not quite as good as the McEwans 80 Shilling IMHO.
I lived in Dundee for 4 years so got to sample a wide variety of the Scottish beers.

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Super crutch?

Would you call DM's Siphon a super crutch?

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You misunderstood the "crutch" part I think. Siphon is great. Parry makes you want to cry every time you press it. Regen makes you press it even more often.

Plus it seems like my real question got ignored. For general purpose are there any */regen builds which stack up really well against */wp without using parry/DA? I'm asking because I would have some interest in playing one but I don't know.

Umbral, you vastly underestimate the mitigation capability of shockwave and you are downplaying its effectiveness either knowingly or not.

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How do you feel about Belhaven Scottish Ale?

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There are several types, I cant usually find any round here.

Belhaven 80 Shilling is definitely good, but not quite as good as the McEwans 80 Shilling IMHO.
I lived in Dundee for 4 years so got to sample a wide variety of the Scottish beers.

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You have my envy.

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It has an advantage in gaining from recharge buffs

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Yeah and too bad it gets debuffed to hell along with it's other primary form of mitigation, regeneration.

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The game still sets pet-class base tohit to 75%, not 50% (everything from Frostfire's pets to Malta turrets) which for SR scrappers "immune to defense debuffing" the relative equivalent for Regen would be having an entire class of foe which upon targeting you made all your enhancements vanish.

Everyone's got problems. Overemphasizing one of them suggests a lack of awareness of all the others.

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Okay but how many enemies spawn pets verses how many have recharge debuffs? I'm going to assume a lot more.

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I'm glad thats just opinion, it would suck if it were fact.

15 second god mode vs a 2 minute god mode?.....it pretty much speaks for itself. You're just looking for an argument aren't you?.

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MOG is better. That's fact. That 15 seconds of pretty much being untouchable is more then enough time to either soak the alphas or buy enough time for your health to regen out of that "oh crap" range or enough time for a heal to recharge. SOW has a small % res to all thus adding just a little res on to WPs small amount of res it has to begin with. All other res tier 9s either cap you or raise HP and near cap you. It is a nice break free for stacked Mezzes like in a rwz challenge or if you get caught by romi's rez stun in ITF. Its more of a utility then a power house res power. This comming from someone who has two /regen scrappers, two /WP brutes, two /WP scrappers, and one WP/ tank. And to end this total debate, I will say this, the way this game is set up, powers that depend on mobs to function better always out shine their self sustaining counterparts in situations they have the fuel to. Soul drain and aao can be stronger then any build up. Dark regen can heal for more hit points then reconstruction or healing flames. So, on the same token, rttc can be stronger then integration and at times instant healing. But this is only when enough mobs are around. In normal par builds (not costing billions. No pvp IOs or purples or hard to get overpriced IO sets), having enough mobs around to pass a normal build regen IH would be dangerous and result in them being dead for taking more dmg then what could be regenerated. Even with the res, def, and extra hp. If this wasn't true, a SO build would be able do the same stuff fully IOed builds would do. So screw what the numbers say and let's be real. Logically (not numerically ) wp is not better then regen. They are about the same. Just in a different way.

SoW is nowhere, and I mean nowhere, close to the level of MoG. If your health is dropping quickly, SoW is not going to save you like MoG will. Truthfully, MoG is the most unkillable you can get (outside of phase, etc). SoW is more of a "hmm, this could be a rough mob. Let me pop SoW" power. MoG is a "woops, to close to death. Now I'm completely unkillable for 15 seconds".

It's also worth noting that you can get Reconstruction down to the teens in recharge. So during that time that MoG is down, Reconstruction will be back up and heal you of a lot of damage. Ah, and let's say I don't want to use Reconstruction while MoG is down. My Scrapper heals about 60 hp/sec without DP or IH. So for those 15 seconds of god-mode where my Scrapper practically cannot take any damage, I'm also healing 60 hp/sec. So by the time MoG is done, I've gotten nearly 900 damage healed, and likely don't need to use Reconstruction again.

Not to mention that in 15 seconds where I don't have to even worry about my health bar, I can focus purely on whoever did that to me and probably kill them in 15 seconds.

MoG is a beautiful power and often looked over. When we talk about the great regen nerfs, we often forget how much of a buff MoG got.

Well, I've held onto this post all week.

I have a Regen and two Willpowers at 50. From at least my seat of the pants view, I agree that Moment of Glory adds more to Regen than Strength of Will adds to Willpower.

That said, I don't put much stock in the seat of my pants. My butt-o-meter isn't particularly accurate. So let me check some survivability numbers.

Example Katana/Regen with MoG = 2284, without = 1901
Example Katana/Willpower, 3 targets, with Strength of Will = 2218, without = 1901

Yes, those are time-averaged numbers, not just with it up and with it down. So at least in this small example, we can see that it adds a similar amount of survivability to the two sets. I'll also note that this example is slanted more towards the Regen than I would expect on average because this particular Regen is running with 155% global recharge. On the other hand, since these are Katana builds, it's slanted away from Regen because the Regen is already sitting at the melee and lethal defense cap, so Moment of Glory is doing much less than it would on some other build. And this ignores factors like how Moment of Glory adds the ability to soak an alpha strikes that would otherwise be fatal, even though it only lasts 15 seconds and therefore doesn't contribute a whole lot to time-averaged numbers.

So while I'd say the results are inconclusive so far, I'm still putting my money on Moment of Glory. I'd have to run more numbers, but I probably won't bother since I'll never have to choose one power over the other.

I do think Strength of Will's resistance may be being downplayed. The example build I used has about 50% smashing/lethal resistance normally, and Strength of Will bumps that to the 75% hard cap. That's cutting the most common damage types in half, while at least significantly reducing some the others.