Numerically, why pick Regeneration over Willpower?
By
AgentMountaineer,
Posted on: 2009-07-23 10:12 in Scrappers
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The "borrowing ahead" argument posed to me by Arcanaville as the fundamental balance factor that normalized this lack of variable assessment never quite sat well with me.
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Then you're probably the sort of player that doesn't sit around for several minutes waiting for everything to recharge so that you can achieve another burst of peak performance. Like almost every scrapper in existence, I'd say.
Yes, we can achieve higher peak performance by clicking on Dull Pain, Instant Healing and Moment of Glory at the same time. But anything in the game that needs that sort of peak performance is still going to be around 15 seconds later, and we're going to be sad little Regenners that we didn't pace ourselves better.
I'll agree with Arcanaville that we can save up survivability rather than being constantly at our average. But I'd say that doesn't matter much in practice, because the only enemies tough enough fight with that strategy are going to live long enough for that strategy to backfire.
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This is precisely the reason why I don't really trust the counterargument posed by Arcanaville, especially since 99.99% of the time, even when I'm doing normal content, I didn't die because I didn't have the powers recharged or that I delayed using them until the point that they would be optimally effective. It is almost always because the effect of the power was delayed by attack animation time and the native delay in the power itself (I'm looking at you Dull Pain!).
The other point about animation time costs that aren't addressed are the damage losses that are incurred by using a normally offensive resource for defensive purposes. DA/Parry already do this simply by giving the power a defensive benefit for either the decreased damage (Parry) or the increased animation time (DA). Personally, I feel that none of the */Regen powers really gain anything over the other sets by using animation time. They're using up animation time that none of the other sets do (and it's actually a rather large amount if you're using them as often as possible) and getting nothing substantive in return. It's a cost that is payed but nothing is gained for it except for the vague ability to frontload survivability (which runs rather counter to the actual long term survivability of the set).
Edit:
Here are the animation time numbers for Regen assuming the powers are used as often as possible (re: maximum survivability) with normal SO slotting (re: balance perspective):
Recon: .924 seconds every 31.7 secs ((60/1.95)+.924); 1.75 secs every minute
Dull Pain: .924 seconds every 185.5 secs ((360/1.95)+.924); .3 secs every minute
Instant Healing: 1.32 seconds every 334.65 secs ((650/1.95)+1.32); .24 secs every minute
MoG: 2.772 seconds every 125.8 seconds ((240/1.95)+2.772); 1.32 seconds every minute
Total: 3.61 seconds every minute = 6.01% of animation time used up by */Regen click powers.
Short answer? Because it is NOT all about the numbers, and it never will be.
One can not ask a question about one aspect and neglect the others and expect a meaningful answer. The numbers of a power do not exist in a vacuum! Some will pick WP just because they don't like the color green (though this may be moot soon).
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Short answer? Because it is NOT all about the numbers, and it never will be.
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What do you mean it's not all about the numbers? My calculations proved without a doubt that numbers mean everything, and I even had Werner and Arcanaville check them!
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Short answer? Because it is NOT all about the numbers, and it never will be.
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What do you mean it's not all about the numbers? My calculations proved without a doubt that numbers mean everything, and I even had Werner and Arcanaville check them!
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Yer kidding right?
(Pssst: If not, also note that I was not responding to your post, but to the original post.)
my only problem with /regen is
No regen debuff resist(not a huge deal mostly concept wise is)
And the self rez is weak. (At least it should get an quick on your feet animation) Like a kick up if on your back or a Spinaruny if on your front. :P
That and the Christmas tree green glow(Hopefully i16 will cure that)
But those are nitpicks really.
NeoSaturn-L50 Kat/Regen Scrapper
Paragon Family Swift
NeoSaturn's Deviations
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Recon: .924 seconds every 31.7 secs ((60/1.95)+.924); 1.75 secs every minute
Dull Pain: .924 seconds every 185.5 secs ((360/1.95)+.924); .3 secs every minute
Instant Healing: 1.32 seconds every 334.65 secs ((650/1.95)+1.32); .24 secs every minute
MoG: 2.772 seconds every 125.8 seconds ((240/1.95)+2.772); 1.32 seconds every minute
Total: 3.61 seconds every minute = 6.01% of animation time used up by */Regen click powers.
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Shouldn't it actually be far worse than that normally? Consider that you are not always fighting but that those abilities are often recharging when not fighting.
An actual fight might last long enough that you use several powers twice only to have the fight end right after that. Plus I think including parry as an animation cost is not unfair either considering regen needs it more.
If you wanted to get even more picky you could count in lag and weird stuff like when you have to de-queue an attack at the wrong time and queue up a heal only to miss a server tick.
So in practice I feel like regen eats significant animation time that should be spent on optimal attack chains.
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Recon: .924 seconds every 31.7 secs ((60/1.95)+.924); 1.75 secs every minute
Dull Pain: .924 seconds every 185.5 secs ((360/1.95)+.924); .3 secs every minute
Instant Healing: 1.32 seconds every 334.65 secs ((650/1.95)+1.32); .24 secs every minute
MoG: 2.772 seconds every 125.8 seconds ((240/1.95)+2.772); 1.32 seconds every minute
Total: 3.61 seconds every minute = 6.01% of animation time used up by */Regen click powers.
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Shouldn't it actually be far worse than that normally? Consider that you are not always fighting but that those abilities are often recharging when not fighting.
An actual fight might last long enough that you use several powers twice only to have the fight end right after that. Plus I think including parry as an animation cost is not unfair either considering regen needs it more.
If you wanted to get even more picky you could count in lag and weird stuff like when you have to de-queue an attack at the wrong time and queue up a heal only to miss a server tick.
So in practice I feel like regen eats significant animation time that should be spent on optimal attack chains.
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The entire point of the numbers I posted were to say that, even under the optimal conditions assumed by the survivability analysis calculations, */regen has to burn 6% of total animation time for defensive purposes. Now, the information that it lacks, honestly, is the comparative information that would actually demonstrate that, while */regen pays roughly the same in endurance (cuz 3 of those clickies cost 10.4 end to activate!), achieves roughly the same level of survivability, and is virtually equal/balanced in all other domains of comparison, it still pays more where animation time is concerned.
All of it honestly ties in with my rather long term crusade to get the devs to actually start incorporating animation time (preferably Arcanatime) into their balance calculations (which, if I'm reading Castle right, they're working on it for attacks at least). It's an issue that was never really addressed by the game at large simply because the game eschewed hard number crunching and concrete analysis until recently, and it's kind of hard to incorporate variables that existed but were considered so unimportant as to be ignored from a balance perspective. It's fundamentally the same as realizing two years after having the game around that costume color actually had a tangible effect upon how effective your character was and then trying to bring that additional variable in line (this is a hypothetical).
The bigger problem where factoring animation times in that makes it even harder is that */regen is the only defensive powerset that uses animation time in a defensive manner to such an extent. Every other set is based around having, at most, a single oft-clicked power. Of course, all of this completely ignores the differences between how */regen operates using a completely different survivability mechanism than every other set out there (damage recovery in preference to damage mitigation), making it even harder to actually balance thoroughly, especially considering the effects of bringing in outside mitigation and damage recovery capabilities and how they interact with the levels native to any specific powerset and the levels of those sources in every other powerset for balance purposes.
Mmmm.... Delicious game balancey talk make Umbral happy...
As another point to consider, popping a purple on a Willpower will typically add more survivability than popping a purple on a Regen since added defense is a non-linear benefit and Willpower starts out further up that curve.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Under the current rules for PvP you will have RttC de-toggled every few seconds because it has a minor To Hit debuff on opponents. I have found that in most PvP battles RttC is just shutdown, not really worth the time to start it because it is instantly de-toggled -or within seconds and guess what? RttC is the main tanking power in Willpower.
If you don't intend to PvP ever, Willpower is probably better than Regen.
Quixotik
"I did not say this. I am not here." -Guild Navigator
Better is relative, it depends on the skill of the player.
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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Willpower seems superior to Regeneration in every way. Why pick Regeneration over it for numbers sake?
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It does seem very much like you have already made your decision as to which is better. i have played both secondaries to 50 and /WP has suited me much better for my play style. I'll still play my /Regen every now and then when I want a change of pace, but both sets are a lot of fun.
When it comes to scrappers, it's about wiping things out. As long as you can do that without faceplanting, what does it really matter what secondary is or isn't numerically superior? Both sets have shown demonstrated ability to solo AVs, though I'm not sure if I've seen a /WP solo multiples yet. For team play though, either set can excel in the right hands.
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Well WP is for dummies and new ppl to scrappers IMO regen is for the more experienced ppl that know how to use things.
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I've always resented this sentiment because I think skill is about more than being able to manage click powers. I rather think skill is about knowing how to make your primary and your secondary mesh and make your scrapper be able to defeat enemies faster than they can defeat you.
The awesome thing about such skill is you can take just about any power set combination and make them rock. My opinion is that what makes your secondary awesome is your play style. Powerforge makes SR awesome, Nahilii makes /Invuln awesome, and Werner makes /Regen awesome.
Are any of these dummies because of their choice of secondary? I emphatically say 'NO!'
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Are any of these dummies because of their choice of secondary? I emphatically say 'NO!'
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Being dumb is relative
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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Werner makes /Regen awesome.
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I am deeply insulted.
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Better is relative, it depends on the skill of the player.
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Not to mention that being superior on paper doesn't always mean that it is superior in practice.
Here's the truth...
They're both great sets that get there totally different. :P
In the end it comes down to playstyle/concept.
Having leveled 2 Regens to 50, and another slowly on the way. I personally, prefere WP.
I love the concepts that WP allows me to use.
However, IO either set right, and you have a defensive juggernaut.
I might even put Regen a little ahead, if you rely more on ALOT of recharge, rather then defensive bonuses, as that allows you to get a really nice DPS chain going at the same time.
WP lacks a burst heal, and you can take Aid Self to make up for it...but you'd also likely want to take Tough/Weave. That's 2 power pools right there.
Both great sets. Both don't really require that much strategy. Regen can hurt during lag more than WP in my experience.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Werner makes /Regen awesome.
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I am deeply insulted.
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Somehow, I saw that coming, haha.
It's ok Umbral. I'll be your number one fan if it turns that frown upside down.
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Werner makes /Regen awesome.
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I am deeply insulted.
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Unless you are being facetious, Umbral, you have my most sincere apologies for any offense I may have caused as to do so was not my intent. Perhaps I missed something important that I should be made aware of to avoid this great travesty in the future?
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Werner makes /Regen awesome.
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I am deeply insulted.
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Unless you are being facetious, Umbral, you have my most sincere apologies for any offense I may have caused as to do so was not my intent. Perhaps I missed something important that I should be made aware of to avoid this great travesty in the future?
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Werner hasn't really played his */regen in a while last I recall him saying and, even then, I think it was the general consensus that a significant portion of his capacity to survive in the situations he survived on Werner were do more significantly to Divine Avalanche than to any specific mastery of */regen, which is actually specifically mentioned that he played down by not stacking +rech to optimize the click powers.
Of course, I don't want to say that either of us is more skilled than the other (Werner is actually one of the few people on the forums I actually work to avoid insulting), but I was more irked about being ignored about a set that I've been crunching numbers for since I first started playing and done challenges that most people thought couldn't be accomplished with a */regen at all (I'm pretty sure I was the first non-sword */regen to complete the RWZ challenge and I know I was the only one for a long time).
Not much of a number cruncher but I do ok on my regen...
Umbral brings up something I forgot. When is /regen ever good without mitigation from the primary?
How do you even make it good if you don't have a super crutch like parry or divine avalanche?
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Umbral brings up something I forgot. When is /regen ever good without mitigation from the primary?
How do you even make it good if you don't have a super crutch like parry or divine avalanche?
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You might wanna check out the RWZ challenge I did on my regen down below...
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You might wanna check out the RWZ challenge I did on my regen down below...
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You have amazing patience but it's kind of hard to tell if it's awesome or not when you're only using Swipe :P.
Because the snapdragons send banjos on the 4th of July!
Because the two heads combine into a twin shark!
Because the silly topic deserves a silly reply!
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go run into a room full of people who hate me, get knocked down, get back up again, get knocked down again, get back up again, etc. Because I have more fun when I see my health bar do the Dance of the Second (and Third and Fourth and Fifth) Wind.
Wheeeeeeee!
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I want to PvP someone on test who has a Fire/WP. I challenge you now with my Fire/Regen Super Scrapper!
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Good luck with that. It seems none of the flaming /regen haters want to step up and defend their precious /wp set. Really, this debate has less backing then the /DA sucks debate. But for kicks, ill challenge you with my fire/fire
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Regen is better than WP in pvp, but at this point pvp is VERY different than pve, ridiculously so imo. One of WP's best toggles, rttc, is rendered virtually useless by any mez attack. That alone creates a large gap in performance. What the devs did with pvp is... I can't think of a word that adequately describes how ridiculous it is, lol.
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PvP and PvE aren't very different in Arena matches on the test server when you're fighting a fire/regeneration scrapper. Hint Hint
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Except for the part where AI and people move and react differently, which becomes important when small AoE auras are involved.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound