Drop Rates again

I've been wondering, what do the devs consider an acceptable drop rate? The thread about the "purple problem" brought up a good point: solo farmers get far more drops than team players.

If the IO and salvage drop rate is balanced around soloing, then should the devs add a scaling mechanism similar to teh way XP is handled, with large teams getting less per person, but more overall? Or should drops for 8-person teams stay the way they are? If the drop rate IS considered balanced for large teams, would solo farming be considered "not working as intended," because of the higher reward rate?

I obviously think that the drop rates across the board should be raised, and significantly. I would, however, be very interested to see what effect a scaling drop rate for teams would have on the availability of recipes and salvage on the market. I would assume that it would bring availability up and prices down, even without the need to remove INF from the game. Since large teams are more likely to spawn bosses, the Gold Roll recipes would be more likely to drop as well. Higher supply, would demand still overwhelm it and create the high prices that we see now, or would it eventually outstrip demand, cratering niches and possibly the entire market?

solo farmers get better drops because they set the maps for 6-8 people. that is why they get more drops. the drop rates do not need to change. especially for purples and PvP recipes.

sigh

well, maybe if everyone did regular missions instead of AE all the time then there would be a steady flow of purples again. and with the bug going on with PvP drops right now, there are none to be put up in the market. they are both suppossed to be ULTRA rare. i drop ataleast 1 purple a day running regular missions. and 1 PvP recipe about evey 1-3 days depending on how much PvP i do.

I'm with Lakanna on wanting to see drops in teams fixed a bit. Not saying it has to be as good as farming 6-8 man maps solo, but the gap shouldn't be quite so wide between the solo farmer and team player.

I say this as a solo farmer too.

The gap as it stands is far too wide for me to *want* to team up for normal missions (TF/Trials being the obvious exception) when I could just run them solo. This of course is when I happen to be in the mood to grind for some loot.

(QR)

Purple drops are better on a team, but worse per person. Since every critter has a chance to drop a purple (assuming the appropriate level range), a team has more chances to get a purple drop, and the more people on the team, the more chances there are for a drop. But you don't get a linear increase: Four people do not have four times the enemies of a soloer, nor do eight have eight times the enemies. And since each player gets a fair shre of the drops (averaged out over time, since drop distribution is random as well), it is a lowered chance per teammate, even though the total number of chances has increased.

The farmer gets around this by being the only one on the map, and therefore taking all the drops. The devs probably aren't going to balance around this, because it's not intended gameplay; nor should they.

There is no purple "problem". They are ultra-rare. They are not needed. They are the top-of-the-line, work-your-[censored]-off, best gear in the game. People in other games PVP for weeks to months, or go on dozens upon dozens of 20-50 man raids for a small chance to get the equivalent gear. We get a chance every time we defeat almost any enemy in the end game.

The way I understand it, purples (and all drops, actually) are given a specific drop rate per mob. A solo person with the map set for 8 should get approximately the same rewards as a full 8-person team running the map, only concentrated. The concentration wasn't what I meant to ask about, though.

When a mob is defeated, it gives a set amount of XP. On teams, bonus XP is then added, depending on team size. a team of 8 doesn't get nearly 8x the XP of someone soloing the whole map, but they do collectively get more than a single person would. I was proposing adding a similar scaling to drop rates. It would lessen the heavy incentive to solo for drops, because teams would be overall more efficient. It would also add a lot of incidental recipes and salvage to the game, and hopefully those would make their way onto the market.

I was including purples, but not just purples. All varieties of salvage and all recipes that drop from mobs would get the same scaling.

For the numbers... A team of 8 has a 250% XP modifier, which is then split up between all team members (keeping it simple- I know it's a lot more involved). What I'm thinking is that if they did something similar to drops, it would go a long way towards increasing supply, but the rare recipes would still be very rare. Salvage and Pool A recipes are where the biggest differences would be seen, with their already high drop rates.

And Lavitae, CoX still is NOT those "other games." If that playstyle appeals, then by all means, those "other games" already have the gameplay mechanics you're advocating. Just because someone else does it, doesn't make it a great idea.

It's not JUST purples: your drop rate all together is worse if you're on a team.

I can make more salvage and recipes doing 3 radio missions set on heroic than a whole 8-man STF on invincible. Sometimes I'm lucky if i get more than 5 pieces of salvage and a few generic IO recipes on a TF!

The new TF seems to balance this off by having mob spawns be larger, though I think the devs should institute some kind of "drop bonus" akin to the XP bonus when teaming for the other 99% of the content. Because, you know, it's not like an XP bonus does level 50s any good.

Of course, this is why AE is a better alternative for anything else besides purples. I can run a few missions and get enough tickets to completely fill up on random common salvage. And with the way salvage prices have been going, i find little choice in the matter.

Of course, Purples are unimportant as I have my main toon already outfitted, but they're still nice to have drop ^_^

Here's the problem as I see it ... how do you adjust the drop rate for "real" teams without also benefiting the solo farmer who fills his team with dummy members, maps the mission, then goes solo?

I think that adjusting the drop rate for teams would really only have the net effect of making it even MORE worthwhile for the solo farmers out there.

I'm tempted to discard the padded solo farmer as a case that's interesting, but not significant. The salvage and recipes a farmer earns end up on the market generally, and that's good for everybody. The players who act as padding do it to help the farmer. Finally, the farmer has to do annoying crap to set things up. I think it all balances out.

The disincentives to team due to garnering significantly fewer drops on teams versus normal solo play is a more significant problem.

If the designers deem padded solo farming to be a serious issue, they have the means to put a stop to it.

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If the IO and salvage drop rate is balanced around soloing, then should the devs add a scaling mechanism similar to teh way XP is handled, with large teams getting less per person, but more overall? Or should drops for 8-person teams stay the way they are? If the drop rate IS considered balanced for large teams, would solo farming be considered "not working as intended," because of the higher reward rate?

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If a person can solo spawns that are normally set up for 8-person teams, that's great for the person. Not every character can solo like that because it's much more difficult. Since it is harder for the soloer than the team, then obviously the soloer should get more loot. Thus, I think the drop rate is balanced, at least based on the mythical "risk vs. reward" concept.

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I obviously think that the drop rates across the board should be raised, and significantly.

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Decreasing the amount of inf generated (significantly) and/or increasing the amout of inf being destroyed (significantly) will also lead the lower prices. The fundamental difference is .... should everyone be able to get what they want or should the top of the line items be reserved for a select few.

Personally, I will have to go with the latter. Until the devs start balancing the game around anything more expensive than SOs, then people are only entitled to SOs. Anything above that should require some effort to get.

On a side note, I've observed a huge factor that makes it hard for people to get items: alts. Having alts, rather than just one toon, requires extra leveling time that could be used to farm inf for the one toon. Also, it costs tremendously more inf to outfit multiple alts vs. just one toon. People have to spread their wealth around multiple alts, rather than putting all their wealth into just one toon. I think if people insist on having alts, then they need to realize their ability to outfit them all greatly decreases.

First off, just to be clear - I don't care about Purple recipes (I don't play at lvl 50 anyway) - so I'm not asking for anything...

I DO have a problem with people using "Soloing a Map Set for 8" as a metric to gauge the drop rate on. Not because of someone's/my ability to kill all the mobs on a "Padded for 8 map" - but because of the hassle of setting up a map like that!

Then what? DO you run that same map repeatedly??

TBH, Idk how that works even...
Do (can?) you quit the mission at the end (or near the end) and then comeback to & re-enter that full "set for 8 map"?

And, even if you can = OMG, That's gotta be boring!

Also, I'm so fraking sick and tired of the unbelievably trite - "you're only entitled to SO's - if anything" B.S.! (OR the standard "Entitlement Mentality" speil)

If you think there would still be people still playing in numbers even remotely close to what there is today without Recipes, Salvage, & IO's... Then, you're kidding yourself.

So back before IO's - did you tell people they were only entitled to TO's?

I wasn't on the forums then, But I was playing off & on with an active sub the whole time. It was getting kinda stale around here before Inventions.

And regardless of what the Devs claim, the game is hardly balanced around SO's anymore - these days it's balanced around the [u]"Emergent Gameplay[u]" in CoX...

Don't believe me? Go read - virtually anything in the Dominator forum and related threads.
OR... think back to any of the last half-dozen controversially "nerf-rants" - THEN, come back and tell me you honestly believe they're still balancing the game around SO's.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville City of Heroes didn't fail, City of Heroes was killed. If a 747 dropped on your house, you'd say you were killed, not you failed to find a safer dwelling.

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So back before IO's - did you tell people they were only entitled to TO's?

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A telling statement.

The only thing players are entitled to is access to the game world. What they choose to accomplish there is entirely up to them.

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So back before IO's - did you tell people they were only entitled to TO's?

[/ QUOTE ]
A telling statement.

The only thing players are entitled to is access to the game world. What they choose to accomplish there is entirely up to them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Madness!

My $15/month entitles me to login to a purple warshade!

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The way I understand it, purples (and all drops, actually) are given a specific drop rate per mob. A solo person with the map set for 8 should get approximately the same rewards as a full 8-person team running the map, only concentrated. The concentration wasn't what I meant to ask about, though.

When a mob is defeated, it gives a set amount of XP. On teams, bonus XP is then added, depending on team size. a team of 8 doesn't get nearly 8x the XP of someone soloing the whole map, but they do collectively get more than a single person would. I was proposing adding a similar scaling to drop rates. It would lessen the heavy incentive to solo for drops, because teams would be overall more efficient. It would also add a lot of incidental recipes and salvage to the game, and hopefully those would make their way onto the market.

I was including purples, but not just purples. All varieties of salvage and all recipes that drop from mobs would get the same scaling.

For the numbers... A team of 8 has a 250% XP modifier, which is then split up between all team members (keeping it simple- I know it's a lot more involved). What I'm thinking is that if they did something similar to drops, it would go a long way towards increasing supply, but the rare recipes would still be very rare. Salvage and Pool A recipes are where the biggest differences would be seen, with their already high drop rates.

And Lavitae, CoX still is NOT those "other games." If that playstyle appeals, then by all means, those "other games" already have the gameplay mechanics you're advocating. Just because someone else does it, doesn't make it a great idea.

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so in short "play my way, or else you're wrong and gtfo"

My $15/month (well actually only $10.24/month for this year and a bit I love the 12+2 billing offer) enttiles me to a sense of entitlement.

Someone else seems to be using mine though.


and my purple warshade*

*my warshade has zero purple IOs**

** well actually my highets warshade has zero set IOs***

*** welll zero IOs all told****

*** she IS only 12 though, and I am sure her buy orders have come through in the last 90 days or so she has been offline.

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My $15/month (well actually only $10.24/month for this year and a bit I love the 12+2 billing offer) enttiles me to a sense of entitlement.

Someone else seems to be using mine though.


and my purple warshade*

*my warshade has zero purple IOs**

** well actually my highets warshade has zero set IOs***

*** welll zero IOs all told****

*** she IS only 12 though, and I am sure her buy orders have come through in the last 90 days or so she has been offline.

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You won't enjoy your teens as a shade unless you avoid CoT missions. Stupid ghosts resist our damage.

QR

It is evident that for an individual person, running solo missions is better for drops than running group missions, unless the group's kill rate is greater than the team size times your solo kill rate. Padded missions just cloud the issue, since they are equivalent to running solo missions at an artificially inflated speed (which is fine as far as I'm concerned, but beside the point).

That's exactly the kind of anti-social incentive that is usually avoided in MMOs in the interest of promoting player interaction, hence the scaling XP multiplier on team size to counteract the similar effect on XP gain. Why there is no similar multiplier on drops is a mystery to me.

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QR

It is evident that for an individual person, running solo missions is better for drops than running group missions, unless the group's kill rate is greater than the team size times your solo kill rate. Padded missions just cloud the issue, since they are equivalent to running solo missions at an artificially inflated speed (which is fine as far as I'm concerned, but beside the point).

That's exactly the kind of anti-social incentive that is usually avoided in MMOs in the interest of promoting player interaction, hence the scaling XP multiplier on team size to counteract the similar effect on XP gain. Why there is no similar multiplier on drops is a mystery to me.

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Perhaps the devs determined their preferred drop rate weighted against the average team size not solo play.

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Perhaps the devs determined their preferred drop rate weighted against the average team size not solo play.

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But that doesn't change the flawed incentive...it just makes the drop rate wrong. Assuming the devs determined their preferred rate of XP gain by a similar process, it's odd that they would get drop rates wrong.

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Perhaps the devs determined their preferred drop rate weighted against the average team size not solo play.

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But that doesn't change the flawed incentive...it just makes the drop rate wrong. Assuming the devs determined their preferred rate of XP gain by a similar process, it's odd that they would get drop rates wrong.

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Only the devs can pop up the exact numbers but what percentage difference of drops/time do you think the difference makes?

How quickly will 8 equals clear a map of X enemies versus one person (not padded) of Y enemies? Then divide X and Y by their respective times.

I think a lot people make the mistake of thinking they get 1/8 the drops teamed that they would solo and while there is some technical truth to that it ignores how many more enemies the 8 people will face and how quickly they will clear them.

And given the volume of people complaining about MA killing regular teams people obviously aren't all that concerned about teaming or drops since they are teaming where they don't get drops (except MA tickets).

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So back before IO's - did you tell people they were only entitled to TO's?

[/ QUOTE ]
A telling statement.

The only thing players are entitled to is access to the game world. What they choose to accomplish there is entirely up to them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Madness!

My $15/month entitles me to login to a purple warshade!

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Did you really miss the sarcasm in that line of my post?
(And ignore the rest of the post, - like maybe the first line? Personally, I'm asking for absolutely NADA, zip, zero... from anybody!)

2. NG, does someone pee in your cornflakes every day?
Seriously though - I think the topic was more about...
Just what a player needs to do, as in: What hoops they have to jump through - (aka "accomplish") to get said 'drops', and is it possible that the drop rates a bit too chincy? (And I don't think anyone is asking you NG, they were asking the collective "you" - as in everyone reading the post.

I lurk here regularly and post fairly rarely - but I really don't see that many people "expecting everything for nothing" around here, at least not to the same extent that some of the people/posters who're even more jaded & cynically than I am constantly gripe about it.

IMO, folks complain about this more, way more than people the complain about the drop rates to begin with!


Translation: There's nobody in your yard, old man... (or very rarely) So would you please stop yelling "get off my lawn!"

3. SwellGuy, - hyperbole FTW very much?

Sorry, but I think there's gotta be happy medium around here - somewhere between "just use SO's" and "login =/= Purpled warshade", no? (OR is that unreasonable too?)

The "I remember when we couldn't afford SO's at 22... so consider yourself lucky, punk" is very reminiscent of "Back in my day, we used to walk uphill to School, in the snow, both ways, and we liked it!"

Pardon moi, If I'm sick of hearing that sorta thing around here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville City of Heroes didn't fail, City of Heroes was killed. If a 747 dropped on your house, you'd say you were killed, not you failed to find a safer dwelling.

i think you are missing the point that whether you are on an 8 man team or running through missions solo the drop rate is the same per person.

if you wanna whine that there are no purples on the market for you to buy, then go run some regular missions instead of AE. or run dev's choice arc or hall of fame arc's in the AE. it is because people are running the AE missions and not regular missions that there has been less of the purples on the market.

the drop rates for them do not need to be changed. they are suppossed to be ULTRA RARE. you say that you are asking for mothing which is in fact a lie. you are asking for the drop rates to be increased which IS asking for something.

It's all a Nemisis plot

The next time you do a TF and complain about not getting any drops worthwhile, ask yourself, did the team just want to rush through every mission and skip a lot of mobs that could have dropped something juicy. All those mobs left alone are also a chance for a drop you never took because the team wanted the merits instead.