poopy

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Wouldn’t it make more sense to create a system that has the potential to convert curious/non-hardcores into true pvp’ers, while ALSO rewarding existing pvp’ers (hardcore or w/e)?

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PvP IOs weren't and will never be the answer as long they could be gotten without people having to ever even think about PvPing and right now those are the people where most, if not all the complaints, are coming from. They weren't going to PvP anyways. This was basically just a ploy to get their hands on more stuff.

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I was the guy saying: "pvp recipes, for pvp'ers, earned by pvp'ing and used for pvp"

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You know what..these suggestions I do agree with or untradeable PvP merits of some kind.

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I do agree though, hardcore pvp'ers pvp because they love it. That's why I did it across numerous games now, but I'm not so naive that I believe there is enough of that mentality here to have a healthy pvp system.

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This is where I have the biggest problem. PvP is still going to suck even if there's an influx of PvErs in the zone. Just having a mass of bodies won't help PvP at all. PvP is only fun with actual PvPers under a decent game mechanic. It's quality, not quantity.

But this point is even entirely moot, as new people didn't show up in RV to try their hands at getting one when they just bought it from WW (before the nerf bat). So, there's no quality..and no quantity.

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You add incentives to entice the vast majority of your playerbase, who don't really care if the sub-game lives or dies.

if the incentives work, then new blood will try the sub game.

of these new players, some will LIKE the sub game and stick around.

So incentives that draw ideologically impure PvE losers to PvP help PvP become more viable.

The basic concept is a standard tactic in any capitalist society.
Do you live in Cuba, perchance?

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But it doesn't in practice now does it? In practice, PvErs were able to get their hands on PvP IOs without even PvPing. Then, there's no point from a PvP perspective if that happens. Hardly any new people showed up. PvErs may be happy with their new shiny, but PvP itself will still be under utilized and have messed up mechanics. Why bother helping PvErs who were never going to PvP anyways. Increasing drop rates will just mean more supply on WW for PvEs to buy, while still completely ignoring PvP.

Btw, I'm pretty sure if someone has even an ounce of interest in PvPing, they would've at least tried it out to find out for themselves, w/o the need of some external reward. Face it, this is really just PvErs wanting more loot.

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By your own admission the PvP IO system does nothing whatsoever for PvP and only encourages PvE 'wannabes' to enter the zone and cause problems, so I fail to see how fixing at least one of those two problems by removing the PvE 'wannabes' from the equation doesn't improve PvP for you.

You're being intellectually dishonest. You argue that the PvP loot should be uber, rare and powerful, but then in the same breath say that loot is not the point of PvPing, and that people who come primarily to get that loot are ruining the PvP experience.

You can't have it both ways. Either the loot is rare and people will come to harvest the valuable commodity and 'bring pve into pvp', or, they're common and there's no incentive to go after them, removing the pve-ers only after loot from the pvp situation. You contradict yourself saying PvE mentality ruins PvP, and then are against a change that makes the PvE mentality unappealing in a PvP zone.

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I'm not making that point at all. My point is that having PvP-wannabes thinking of the zone as another PvE farm zone doesn't count as "fixing" PvP at all. In other words, PvP IOs, even at early drop rates, didn't meet the criteria for fixing PvP and they never would. PvP IOs were the wrong approach by the devs to begin with. Now that they're out, it's kinda hard to take them back. Hence, why I think the best compromise would be to introduce crappier PvP IOs that drop more often.

Barring that, PvP IOs weren't meant for PvErs who would never cared for PvP. If PvErs want PvP IOs without doing PvP, then they should be at the complete mercy of those who do. They were suppose to be a nice secondary reward for PvPers who you know...actually PvPed, but got absolutely butchered by PvErs who wanted things that weren't for them.

People who found PvPing fun will still find it fun. People who don't find PvPing fun still won't. That basic premise is still there. Now, it boils down to is should PvErs have PvP IOs.

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So my question is: Given that increasing the drop rate and accessibility of these drops helps every single one of your points, why are you arguing for the exact opposite to happen?

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Because helping PvErs to PvE doesn't help improve the PvP conditions in any shape or form, which was the original purpose.

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I've gone for HOURS, more specifically, 0-227 rep in RV on freedom, on a 3 man team, none got pvp drops, and this was BEFORE the changes, you *CAN NOT* tell me that pvp drops needed anything in the remote REGION of a nerf, if anything, they needed a buff.

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o right....so what was keeping you there before PvP IOs? The PvP is still the same.

I'll give a timeline of what happened.

1. PvP IOs were introduced and had a measely impact to get PvErs to step in the zone in the first place. In the weeks after, I saw maybe ... maybe a few new faces in RV. It was basically the same people in RV night in and night out, regardless of the new shiny. If the underlying PvP *still* sucks and pushes away people, it basically trumps anything else that can be offered.

2. PvErs discovered arena farms or BB entrance farms or w/e else farming is going on. This opened up another avenue for PvErs to get access to PvP IOs without ever having step foot in a PvP zone, which is what they did. PvP never existed to them before and after PvP IOs.

3. Nerf hammer comes. Now it'll be infinitely more difficult for PvErs to get the new PvP shiny to equip in their PvE toons. These were probably the same people who didn't care about PvP and never would. The original PvP IO drop rate didn't do a damn thing. PvP IOs were just another shiny to acquire.

In the end, PvP will still be borked (or not borked, depending on your views). PvP IO drop rates would mostly just impact PvErs. How many ppl with PvP IOs actually PvPed.

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1. Any1 who can even infer that frost isn't a good pvper can't be very good him/herself

2. I've read your points, they just don't make any sense from any type of view except certain extremist views of Rewards

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1. I never inferred frost's PvP ability. It was frost that inferred my PvP ability in relation to his PvP ability.

2. The points make crystal clear sense from a non-PvE perspective. You seem to think PvP somehow should work like PvE, but it doesn't.

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Your right poopy, Frost wouldn't just wipe the floor with you, you would be traumatized


(Sounds like an arguement that never ends, becuase one party just.... doesn't.... get... it....)

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We haven't PvPed each other, so how would you know? Alright, so now that's out of the way, the ability to wipe other other on the floor is irrelevant to the topic being discussed.

I've clearly and logically laid out my points. If you want to blindly choose sides, go ahead.

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I would like to challenge you, as an exercise, to try and think of three ways this could actually improve PvP gameplay. Short or Longterm, immediate or delayed gratification, whatever comes to mind just go for it!

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The bottom line is PvP is not going to last if it just ends up as a bunch of PvErs going after PvP IOs for PvEing. Making PvP actually last is to make the process fun, not another farming mechanism for PvErs. They might as well just scrap PvP altogether at that point and turn the PvP zones into co-op PvE zones.

The goal would be for PvErs to take on the mentality of PvPers and say "hey, kicking that guy's [censored] is fun!" or at the very least "hey, I died, but at least I took a chunk of him with me!" The priorities are completely different. The only reason drops are needed is if PvPing is considered "work" rather than fun and that's not going to last. If people are having fun killing each other, the loot becomes an afterthought.

IMO, this complaining isn't an attempt by PvErs to try and improve the actual PvP gameplay. How many of them really ever possibly cared about PvP. They just cared only about the loot. It just seems like one big disguise.

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But even if educated marketeers don't have sufficient enticement to roll for salvage and sell, what's to be expected of regular folk? Unless something changes significantly, we may see a long time of outrageous prices on commons...

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For the regular folk, increased prices of common and uncommon salvage are buffered by a huge decrease in prices of most rare salvage and recipes from rolls. Look at pangean soil. They were what ...4+ mil, now at 600K.

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TL;DR version - you don't understand the difference between extrinsic and intrinsic motivation.

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I'll break it down so that you can even understand. Real PvPers rely on intrinsic motivation. In all sorts of PvP formats (FPS, RTS, and even RPG), the desire to face against real competition, the fights, the drive to be the best is the ultimate motivator. Luring fake PvPers with extrinsic motivation will just result in bunches of wannabes running around going "where's mah lewt!" That does nothing to improve the actual PvP gameplay.

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This is just flat out untrue. Have you played Guildwars? Powers in that game are more like loot here. They are so desirable they offer the ability to BUY them with real money (along with pvp items).
*That would be like the option to buy a lvl 50 with full pvp IO's (and maybe purples) here. Would that be good or bad for pvp in Cox?

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Yes, I played GW for quite some time. Unlocking of the powers there is much easier than what you make it out to be. The differences in real loot in GW are so small that they don't make nearly as much difference as here. In addition, once you unlock loot, you can apply it to as many of your PvP chars as you like.

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PvP'ing for the sake of pvp'ing is NOT reward enough evidently. Are you new to this game or other MMOrpg's? PvP for the sake of pvp was in this game for 10? issues and it didn't take off. And that was when it was actually a FUN system to use.

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It was enough reward for the real PvPers. Lets go back to Guild Wars for a moment. You don't get any significant loot from PvPing & GvGing there. In fact, any mention of introducing uber, unbalancing loot met with huge uproar from the PvP community. Loot is and will never be the focus of true PvPing.

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By your faulty logic we could just as easily claim that pve'ers pve for the sake of pve and rewards provide little to no driving force.

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As I've been stating all along, PvE mindset is very different than PvP. What drives PvErs and what drives PvPers are completely different. That's why the goal should have been to convert PvErs into a PvP mindset.

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See, I did pvp a lot in this game, probably far more than you and quite frankly I put in the hours to get very good. This whole block of text I just quoted is just flat out ridiculous. It is inherently exclusive and implementing massive barriers to entry.

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Your assumptions are wrong. Try again.

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Don't bother unless you are already good? Ya that is a recipe to success.

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No, it means get good first, then worry about the loot second. It means having thick skin, asking questions, observing, reading the forums. It doesn't mean don't bother, unless the ONLY reason for someone is loot, then yes don't bother.

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What part of your brain is telling you that video game users subscribe to the belief that they need to practice for hours before they are entitled to some sort of tangible reward? It can't be the part that is grounded in reality.

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PvPing is THE tangible reward for PvPers. Let's put it this way. If a player isn't having fun from actually doing the things required to get rewards, then it's not really for them. If learning to be good at PvP is considered "worK" and can only be properly rewarded with PvP IOs, then it's not really for them.

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Please stop attacking my integrity as a pvp'er. If you insist I'll go to the arena and wipe the floor with you. I've spent more time making suggestions of how to improve pvp in this game than you have probably spent pvp'ing.

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Ya, I highly doubt that you'll wipe the floor with anyone, so that has no impact on me. I'll continue to question you, since you seem to be approaching things solely from a PvEr perspective who just wants this new shiny for PvE.

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Not everyone is intrinsically motivated. In fact most people are more driven by extrinsic factors (especially in video games where they are offered). Pvp'ing for the "fun" of it just isn't enough to drive many people. That isn't a bad thing, it just is. For MANY people, being extrinsically motivated IS fun.

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Then, those type of people are not needed in PvP.

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You don't understand how DR works.

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Ya, actually I do.

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But until that time the current crop of pvp IO's are the ONLY meaningful pvp rewards, and as far as we know the only ones coming. So putting them on a drop rate where engaging in active pvp does not reward them totally defeats their purpose.

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No, the ONLY meaningful PvPing reward is the actual PvPing itself. The thrill, the rush, the tactics of facing against real enemies, not drones waiting to be herded like cattle. There were PvPers before any PvP IOs were introduced. The loot concept is strictly a PvE ideal. It's why PvP-oriented games like Guild Wars de-emphasized loot and concentrated on builds and skill.

Don't bother PvPing if you're going to PvP with a PvE mentality. If you actually wanted to PvP, you would try to be good first before even thinking about any loot you "deserved" for your effort. The learning curve and the reward curve is much, much steeper in PvP than in PvE.

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*I'll say this upfront, you'll have a heck of a time convincing me and most people (other than the dev's apparently) that something that is failing the purpose that it was intended is working as intended, or at the very least, not requiring attention.

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So you're saying the devs intended to have a bunch of wannabe-PvPers in the zones in search of loot?

If you were even an ioata of a PvPer, your effort would be on why PvPing itself is failing to be fun, not what loot you're unable to get.

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It also doesn't really matter that they are on (or near) purple level IN pvp, DR takes care of that to ensure that makes little difference. The only meaningful benefit they bring is the ability to exempt down to lower pvp zones, which while good hardly warrants their current (and soon to be even rarer) status. That just doesn't carry the same meaning it does in pve.

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This is assuming that a player has hit DR for everything. These PvP IOs make a huge difference if someone hasn't hit DR yet. Even with DR, these still provide boosts in stats that are not normally found in any other set IOs.

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As a pvp reward they have failed - almost completely. It is time to set aside the preconceived notions of how they should be relative to pve counterparts. Shoehorning them into a specific criteria is why they have failed. It is why they will continue to fail, and why they will always fail until those incorrect beliefs are abandoned.

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It's really simple. If these are not worth their value in PvE, then don't get them for PvE use. If you're not going to put in a full-fledged effort to getting to the top of PvP, then just stay in your PvE realm and pretend these never existed. They're not for you.

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Anyway, I've yet to see any convincing reason from Dev's or players that indicates pvp IO's should be exceedingly difficult to acquire through pvp activity. The market will take care of itself it you take care of the root issue.

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Unfortunately, the particular PvP IOs that were released are "purple" level IOs, in regards to their PvP performance. Since they're "PvP" IOs and only drop in PvP, using their PvE performance as a guage is not accurate. Thus, they will need to have "purple" level drop rate in PvP. Apparently, the devs decided the effort it took to kill 5000 level 50 mobs to get a purple drop is roughly equal to the effort it took to kill 100 players to get a PvP IO drop. PvP has a much smaller population, so the absolute number of drops will be proportional to that. In other words, the percentage of PvErs that have purples should be roughly equal to the percentage of PvPers that have these particular PvP IOs.

The dev's mistake was not introducing crappier PvP IOs, ones that don't exmplar, much smaller set bonuses, and even without any PvP-only set bonuses. These could drop more often at a relative rate comparable to the crappier PvE IO sets.

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When the entire rest of the game is built around being easily and immediately accessible to players, sticking in items that require huge amounts of grinding, luck and time to get when nothing else in the game is similarly inaccessible is both inconsistent, and clashes with the rest of the game design, which does nothing really except encourage deviant gameplay in order to achieve them. When you make a game so casual-acessible, adding items that are counter to that encourages them to play the game in unintended ways to achieve those items.

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That's only on the assumption that everyone should get everything. If we were playing the City of Socialism, then I would agre with you, but we're not. Thus, there will be players at the top and players at the bottom.

Items for "hardcore" players are for those type of players. A "casual" player just shouldn't have that expectation to get those items. They weren't meant for that segment of the playerbase.

I specifically used examples from other MMOs to point out that none of the content in CoX is restricted to players with hardcore items. A casual player can easily access all areas of the game. The hardcore items are just another mini-game that players can choose to pursue if they want to.

Purples, for example, aren't dropped from certain areas that only the elite few can get to or bosses that only the elite few can defeat.

As for PvP IOs, PvPing, while requiring a steeper learning curve than PvE, is still much more accessible than MMOs like Guild Wars or Perfect World where the elite guilds dominate the rest.

Thus, I believe that having these hardcore items doesn't make CoX any less casual friendly.

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I'm glad you agree. I'm concerned about the wannabe label. If you would like PvP to be a bit more popular, I'd drop it. Entrance-level player is far nicer and implies they might become a serious pvper someday.

As someone who would indeed like to explore PvP, the cost of these isn't helping.

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The "PvP-wannabe" label is this skewed PvE expectation of rewards in PvP. Firstly, the mindset is completely different. There were PvPers before PvP IOs came out. It wasn't about the drops. It was about having intelligent prey, the hunt, and finally the kill. This "what about drops...what about me" mindset is completely PvE.

Secondly, PvErs somehow expect the learning curve in PvP to be as easy as it was in PvE. Actual players aren't mobs you can just herd blindly into another's AoE all day long. PvErs should expect a much steeper investment of time and energy before the rewards will bear fruit. But, as mentioned before, if loot is the only motivating factor for a PvEr to PvP, then they're just wannabe's.

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If they were purple level bonuses, they would have +15% accuracy, +10% Recharge. PvP IOs are good, but they aren't purples. If I were building a PvP toon I would use purples AND PvP IOs. Purples being the priority for certain powers, especially given DR. They may have behaviors similar to purples, but they aren't purples. The sooner they start being treated as non-purples, the better for the PvP community.

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Um....you do realize that in PvP, these "PvP" IOs have BOTH the PvE and PvP set bonuses applied right. Thus, while PvPing, PvP IO has overall better combined set bonuses than purples. That is one of the reasons why I would choose PvP IOs over purples for PvPing.

PvP IOs also have set bonuses that are either not available elsewhere, or in very limited cases: Slow Resistance, Repel protection, Knockback protection, Mez duration reduction, increase Range. Most of these are "purple" level usefulness for PvP.

Also, there are PvP IOs for certain categories that have no purples: Resist Damage, Healing, Defense. That means PvP IOs are the only sets in these categories that keep their set bonuses when exemplaring. They essentially become the "purples" of these categories.

The problem is your perspective is that of a PvEr. Thus, PvP IOs are not as "useful" for you as purples. Hence, all the comparing of purple vs. PvP IO prices. But, these are the purples for PvP.

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CoX has never marketed itself with an uber raid mentality. The game has ALWAYS been focused on all levels of game player rather than lvl 50 end game content.

Just because other games choose to utilize that design is not really a logical reason for CoX to, especially given how the game was launched and has grown. Even if we agree that ultra rares (like beyond purple rare) is acceptable, it should never be the pvp class of rewards.

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A person without ultra, uber rare items in CoX isn't restricted from any actual game content. Unlike WoW, where you need raid gear from a lower level raid just to survive a higher level raid, CoX is balanced around SOs. Unlike FFXI, there are no content practically restricted to the uber guilds, requiring a huge application just to get in (after a "trial" period). CoX is far, far removed from hardcore MMOs.

This really isn't about casual-friendly anymore. It's about people always wanting what they don't have, the "credit card" mentality. People can still be casual and experience everything in the game. Person A having better gear doesn't negatively impact Person B, other than the latter's inherent jealousy. That's a human flaw, rather than game design flaw.

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I would like to see PvP IOs being much more common. If that means coming out with entirely new more-common sets that drop frequently while these remain the 'purples', so be it.

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IMO, this suggestion would probably be the best compromise. More "stuff" will drop so the PvP-wannabe PvErs can satisfy their "gotta have shiney" cravings, while the higher quality "purple" PvP IOs will be reserved for the dedicated PvPers.

The point I'm trying to get at is what percentage of the casual PvErs have purples and why should a higher percentage of casual PvPers have the "purple" PvP IOs. Purples are generally relegated to hardcore PvErs, so why shouldn't it be the same with hardcore PvPers.

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But this was my entire point: PvP IOs would better serve the players if they weren't treated as purples! Those that PvE will find certain uniques quite useful, but as a whole, most sets don't provide the best bonuses (recharge, for example) to PvE (excluding Gladiator's Net)

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While the absolute numbers may not be as good PvE-wise, the fact that they are mostly not unique AND at the same time have set bonuses that stay while exemplared means they need to be balanced in absolute number-wise.

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The reason I don't advocate Purples for All is that they are labeled as Ultra-Rare recipes. If the developers want Ultra-Rare PvP recipes, they should provide stats similar to Purples, both in terms of the degree of attribute modification AND set bonuses. The numbers they modify are closer to set IOs. As such, they are better served to follow that market pricing, with the uniques from the sets following the uniques from these sets, the numi/miracles, and LOTG 7.5's (yes, not unique).

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Only problem is you're thinking of them for strictly PvE use. They're "PvP' IOs for a reason. As such, you should factor in PvP-only set bonuses into the equation.

Fury of the Gladiator
2: Increases Slow Resistance by 10.00%.
3: Gives a 7.5% chance for Repel protection for 10s.
4: Increases Fire and Cold Defense by 3.13%.
4: Increases Area Effect Defense by 1.565%.
5: Increases maximum Health by 2.25%.
6: Improves the Recharge of all your powers by 7.50%.

Gladiator's Armor
2: Increases maximum Endurance by 2.25%.
3: Gives a 10% chance for Repel protection for 10s.
4: reduces the duration of Mez effects on you by 5.00%.
5: Increases Slow Resistance by 10.00%.
6: Improves the Recharge of all your powers by 7.50%.

I just listed the PvP-only set bonuses of 2 of the sets, but as you can see, these are "purple" level bonuses with regards to their effect on PvP play: decrease recharge, increase range, reduce mez (big one!), defense increase, increase health/endurance, slow resist (another big one!), etc. etc.

If you're strictly a PVEr, why are you even bothering with these sets in the first place, if they're just "another set IO." This is really just sounding like PvErs wanting a new shiney for their PvE builds, even though these are clearly stated as "PvP" IOs.

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Now if they want the elite few to continue to dominate PvP, then I congratulate them on reinforcing this. I have started being interested in PvP, and PvP IOs began to increase my interest in PvP. Without sidetracking this further, I realized very quickly that for one to shine in PvP takes a lot more time and investment than I am currently willing to spend. If I could outfit my characters with PvP IOs cheaply, I would be more likely to reconsider a second PvP build.

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Well, then that's the wrong attitude. PvP takes a long time to learn and gain experience before getting "good." It requires patience and frustration sometimes. Perhap, PvP is simply not for you if you can't invest the time/energy.

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Right now, PvP and Purples are beginning to look similar in price. If the inf I had to spend could only buy one purple or one pvp set (excluding the PvP uniques), which would you buy?

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For strictly PvEing, if it was absolutely one or the other and not both, I would go with purples. However, for strictly PvPing, I would absolutely take the PvP sets over purples anyday. Since these aren't unique, you can stack multiple sets of the same category and get some huge, huge boosts in set bonuses. You have no idea how much mez and slow reduction helps in PvP. Add to the fact these exemplar like purples, you wouldn't need to get specific level IOs to fight in lower level zones like warburg or siren's call.

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PvP IOs are nowhere near as good as purples, especially in PvE.

Compare the set bonuses AND the attribute modifiers. Purples not only enhance a power better, but also have even nicer set bonuses.

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The gap isn't that far apart. PvP IOs , along with purples, are the only sets that keep their set bonuses when exmplaring, even when the skills they're slotted in are disabled.

Also, since most of the PvP IOs are NOT unique, that means multiple sets from the same category can be used on a toon, unlike purples. For example, lets say you have 3 skills that take melee sets on your toon. Whereas you can only slot one Hecatomb set, you can slot 3 Gladiator's Strike sets.

In addition, they're not restricted to level 50 only, thus being able to drop at all levels of PvPing.

Now, factoring in the PvP-only set bonuses, they end up becoming the "purples" of PvPing, which is a major use of the "PvP" sets. In fact, the PvP-only set bonuses make alot of these sets even more useful than their purple counterparts in PvP.

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PvP IOs are now more rare redside than Purples.

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Well, you can't really compare the absolute values directly, as much more ppl PvE than PvP. The drops would have to be normalized to the amount of each activity. Thus, as a percentage, purples and PvP IOs probably aren't that different. It's just the sheer difference in the amount of players doing PvE, as opposed to PvP.

That, in it of itself, is a whole can of worms. While I personally won't get into a detailed debate about that here, having "rewards" in PvP should always come secondary to making the PvP itself fun, whatever that is. PvErs and PvPers ofte times have very different mindsets when it comes to "fun" and "rewards."

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All this has accomplished is widen the gap between the serious PvPer and the casual player.

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Couldn't you say the same thing about purples and serious PvErs vs. casual players?

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My MAIN point is that I just don't agree that the drop rate should be so ridiculously low (emphasis on ridiculous). If I do decide that I want one, "working" towards it won't work because the drop rate is so low that it's closer to winning the lottery than pulling in a pay check. If I could "work" for it and get one, I'd be happy. I don't see that as the case with the upcoming changes.

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Then don't. These can be considered the game's "epic" gear from now on, the rarest of the rare only reserved for the elite few as a trophy.....the fortune 500 CEOs of the playerbase if you will. Go ahead and take your money and try and find an even remotely successful MMO that doesn't have these extremely rare type items.

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But I think most of us would say that there's a supply problem if recipe prices are topping 700M.

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Prices are relative. It's a ratio of supply:demand, with the demand being expressed in the form of inf. Perhaps, there's an inf problem, rather than a supply problem. Inf is just too easily created in the game. Perhaps they could drastically cut new inf creation and/or create massive inf sinks. I bet that'll lower these "ridiculous" prices then.

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Even at those prices you have a problem that new participants don't have incentive to go there. Let me use an analogy: if I offered you a job to work for me and said that every year at your annual review there was a random 10% chance that I'd increase your pay, would you like that deal? Of course not. You want a guarantee that if you put in the work, you get compensated.

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Before PvP recipes, people still PvPed. What was their incentive? If nothing else, it'll just revert back to players PvPing because they actually liked PvPing.

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For a new PVPer under the new drop rules it's incredibly likely that going into a zone and participating in PVP for an hour or two will result in two things: utter humiliation and no drops. For something to act as an incentive, there has to be at least a perception of a reasonable chance of receiving the carrot.

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Or it acts as a long term incentive, rather than instant gratification. Think of it as a "sunk cost" for a new PvPer to learn how to PvP before actually being rewarded...a type of learning curve. It'll be like investing in a startup before it goes IPO. You won't see initial returns, but **if** successful, the returns will be very nice.

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Indeed, I'm fully aware they are "PvP" intended. Increasing supply on the market will be good the players in general. And seriously other than the procs most of the set bonuses are not very good for PvE only players.

Hardcore pvpers don't only PvP, they farm and run TFs to earn cash for their PvP builds. Adding another drop source would increase supply and lower prices. Who can really argue against that.

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It all depends on the intended rarity of the PvP recipes. Based on their current actions, the devs seems like they want these (or at least don't mind) to be very, very rare. There is absolutely nothing wrong with extremely rare items in MMOs. TBH, I haven't played a single MMO that didn't have such items in place already. They were used to differentiate the top players (guilds) from the rest of the masses.

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It would be easier to have pvp IOs drop off mobs during a TF/SF. This would improve the supply to the market a lot. Tweak it so it don't work through flashbacks and you're set.

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They're ===> PvP <=== IOs. They're not for the PvEers. If people aren't willing to step into a PvP zone to try and earn some, then they should be at the mercy of the people who do to put them on the market.

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Deserve? There you go again using words that have no meaning in an MMO. Why do I deserve it? Because I pay my $15 a month just like the next guy.

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The ONLY thing $15 gets you is access to their servers and their support. Absolutely nothing else is guaranteed. If you want to equate real money with getting in game items, try out RMT instead.

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Analogy time! Let's say I want to play a football video game but someone decided that only a microscopically small portion of players could play their favorite team. What makes me think I deserve to play my favorite team? It's a [censored] football video game that I am paying money for! What does DESERVE have to do with anything?

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Your analogy downright sucks. The proper analogy would be to compare your favorite football team to your favorite AT and powersets, which everyone does have access to.

Try again!

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The same theory applies here. Remember folks, it's a VIDEO GAME. We pay money to play, that's the extent of my contribution and that's why I deserve EVERYTHING in the game. If I don't like it, I'll take my money elsewhere. That's the bottom line for the devs and time will tell how much this move will hurt their bottom line.

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um..GTFO then? No one is really going to miss you with that attitude. The "bottom line" is that any long term survival of a MMO requires certain goals that are also long term. Goals in which people can show that they are better than others and allow them to stand out. The only thing you "deserve" with your contribution is an opportunity, not matter how small, to put in hard work to get items you want. If you're not going to work for them, then it shows you don't really need them in the first place.

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Contribute? This isn't an anarcho-syndicalist commune.

Do the math before you point fingers. "Putting some effort into it" is a little bit of an understatement. Getting PO drops before took some effort. Now it's going to take astronomical amounts -- winning the lottery amounts -- of luck. That's what we're complaining about. Trust me, we'd love to put the effort in, but the drop rate is just nerfed all to hell.

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yes, contribute....as in, what makes you think you deserve to have any PvP recipes at all? Maybe there should be items that are restricted to a small, small percentage of the playerbase.

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For a game that claims to be for the casual player this doesnt fit at all.

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Where does the game state that PvP sets (and purple sets for that matter) were for "casual" players? A casual player doesn't need any of these top sets to play the game effectively.

If people want those sets, then they should stop being casual and start actually putting some effort into it.

On a side note, I wonder how many people complaining about the PvP recipe drop situation are PvErs. IMO, the ONLY people who can complain about this problem would be the active PvPers. PvErs don't supply any PvP recipes. They're just leeching the drops from the PvPers.

This is really similar to people who complain about purple drops. I wonder what percentage of their playtime do they actually play on their level 50s outside of AE. It's strange that people who are just constantly alting and not contributing any purples to the market complain the loudest.